[Pre-Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I very much dislike the "refund" aspect of Chaos Strike... I'm sure I wouldnt like the Blade Dance one either. :/ just make the next one free.

Well, yeah, that's kind of the general idea. Wouldn't necessarily need to be a refund, just something to place emphasis on the multi-target nature of the ability.

[Keltas]

This might sound stupid, and I'm sure most won't agree, but what if they made annihilation purely single target?

It'd make chaos cleave less redundant (and could allow it to become like, 3-5 target cleave AND affect annihilation), it'd make death sweep worth hitting in meta (and allow it to be chaos damage), and would remove the massive inevitable reliance on meta to do decent AoE damage, since they would be able to buff other AoE abilities/talents without hitting our single target.

Although it does ruin our mastery for AoE. But death sweep being chaos damage and chaos cleave being more targets would re-fix that.

[Kuze]

Random question, the tattoos, can you change their color?

[Warstar]

I very much dislike the "refund" aspect of Chaos Strike... I'm sure I wouldnt like the Blade Dance one either. :/ just make the next one free.

Ya it's rather clunky. Wouldn't even say it's a skill aspect just bad design. Also there's a delay in the fury refund which makes it even more annoying.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

This might sound stupid, and I'm sure most won't agree, but what if they made annihilation purely single target?

It'd make chaos cleave less redundant (and could allow it to become like, 3-5 target cleave AND affect annihilation), it'd make death sweep worth hitting in meta (and allow it to be chaos damage), and would remove the massive inevitable reliance on meta to do decent AoE damage, since they would be able to buff other AoE abilities/talents without hitting our single target.

Although it does ruin our mastery for AoE. But death sweep being chaos damage and chaos cleave being more targets would re-fix that.

I think instead of that it could stand to split it's damage among all targets in front of you (sort of like Fists of Fury for Monks), that way it's still functioning sort of how they want it to, but won't take away from Death Sweep in the AoE department once you're hitting a certain number of targets.

You do make a point about Chaos Cleave though, I hadn't even thought of that in regards to being completely redundant with Annihilation, so you might be on to something in that regard.

Still don't think Death Sweep/Blade Dance need to be Chaos damage. If what Blizz said a few days ago about Frost DK's and their mastery is anything to go on, it's fine that a mastery doesn't affect all your damage, even in our case where the Mastery takes quite a bit per 1% to achieve. Would totally not be against Blade Dance being added to Bloodlet, or given additional damage in some other way.

[Keltas]

I think instead of that it could stand to split it's damage among all targets in front of you (sort of like Fists of Fury for Monks), that way it's still functioning sort of how they want it to, but won't take away from Death Sweep in the AoE department once you're hitting a certain number of targets.

You do make a point about Chaos Cleave though, I hadn't even thought of that in regards to being completely redundant with Annihilation, so you might be on to something in that regard.

Still don't think Death Sweep/Blade Dance need to be Chaos damage. If what Blizz said a few days ago about Frost DK's and their mastery is anything to go on, it's fine that a mastery doesn't affect all your damage, even in our case where the Mastery takes quite a bit per 1% to achieve. Would totally not be against Blade Dance being added to Bloodlet, or given additional damage in some other way.

I actually meant only death sweep should be chaos damage, and not blade dance. Although I guess it is somewhat pointless overall other than making meta AoE better than non-meta AoE.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I actually meant only death sweep should be chaos damage, and not blade dance. Although I guess it is somewhat pointless overall other than making meta AoE better than non-meta AoE.

OH, in which case, i completely agree. With Death Sweep being Chaos damage that is. Everything should be Chaos damage in Meta IMO though, so there's that i guess >.>

[Warstar]

What kills BD and DS is the fact that they don't refund fury. Currently if BD/DS did do more damage over all than Annihilate/CS the fact that the fury cost of CS just makes it so much stronger. Entering into an AoE pack with Prepared rolling its VERY easy to keep up the Annihilate spam and fill every CD because of the fury refund where as using DS will just kill your fury and end up a dps loss. The argument can be made to squeeze in a DS at the last second of Meta but still what Annihilate/CS bring could still out weigh any dps boost. Getting a crit with that last Annihilate will make your next CS free. Could spawn an orb with DA for more fury/dps if fighting a demon. And, the fact that Annihilate is cheaper makes it more likely that you'll be able to get that last Annihilate in rather than potentially using DB to get enough fury to use DS.

One thing that bugs me to no end is the fact that with haste CS usage sky rockets because of fury gen and combine in crit and you end up replacing DB with CS A LOT. But, on the flip side high haste with First Blood kills your CS usage. It's high fury cost will make for a very clunky rotation.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

What kills BD and DS is the fact that they don't refund fury. Currently if BD/DS did do more damage over all than Annihilate/CS the fact that the fury cost of CS just makes it so much stronger. Entering into an AoE pack with Prepared rolling its VERY easy to keep up the Annihilate spam and fill every CD because of the fury refund where as using DS will just kill your fury and end up a dps loss. The argument can be made to squeeze in a DS at the last second of Meta but still what Annihilate/CS bring could still out weigh any dps boost. Getting a crit with that last Annihilate will make your next CS free. Could spawn an orb with DA for more fury/dps if fighting a demon. And, the fact that Annihilate is cheaper makes it more likely that you'll be able to get that last Annihilate in rather than potentially using DB to get enough fury to use DS.

One thing that bugs me to no end is the fact that with haste CS usage sky rockets because of fury gen and combine in crit and you end up replacing DB with CS A LOT. But, on the flip side high haste with First Blood kills your CS usage. It's high fury cost will make for a very clunky rotation.

Aside from BD costing a bit on the high end in Fury, wouldn't more haste actually help First Blood's case? It'd let you generate Fury a bit faster, and could probably let you squeeze in a CS or 2 in that 10 second window. It'd still be quite a lot less than if you were to not run with First Blood of course, but I would *think* that more haste would actually help?

[Etrnlaffair]

-snipped-

Back to your capstone thing, I would like to see maybe a capstone explosion of Chaos dmg. Like all of the dmg Blade dance does ends in a percentage explosion of chaos. Also, what about taking a page out of the Paladin book? "All fury spending abilities have the chance to proc a resource free Blade Dance and deals an additional 50% chaos dmg." Now in a perfect world, you can have both. But I prefer the latter over the former. It would still even keep their chaos strike functionality there.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Back to your capstone thing, I would like to see maybe a capstone explosion of Chaos dmg. Like all of the dmg Blade dance does ends in a percentage explosion of chaos. Also, what about taking a page out of the Paladin book? "All fury spending abilities have the chance to proc a resource free Blade Dance and deals an additional 50% chaos dmg." Now in a perfect world, you can have both. But I prefer the latter over the former. It would still even keep their chaos strike functionality there.

I've always been a fan of that second idea of yours. I think that'd be better than a Fury refund from Chaos Strike critical strikes IMO.

As per the capstone, I might've mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread that Rage of the Illidari could affect Blade Dance instead of Fury of the Illidari, but that was when it was something that wouldn't have made sense with that particular capstone.

[Etrnlaffair]

I've always been a fan of that second idea of yours. I think that'd be better than a Fury refund from Chaos Strike critical strikes IMO.

As per the capstone, I might've mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread that Rage of the Illidari could affect Blade Dance instead of Fury of the Illidari, but that was when it was something that wouldn't have made sense with that particular capstone.

I actually tweeted at Celestalon the pally idea. I didn't think of the crit functionality though. I just rather it proc off of fury spending abilities. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I could see some neat ways to play with the capstone after using the legendary ring. Try and down all the adds then explode purely on the boss. Ala soul cap as well.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I actually tweeted at Celestalon the pally idea. I didn't think of the crit functionality though. I just rather it proc off of fury spending abilities. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I could see some neat ways to play with the capstone after using the legendary ring. Try and down all the adds then explode purely on the boss. Ala soul cap as well.

I could see that being fun to use, but i'm more biased than.... something REALLY biased i guess.

[Warstar]

I wonder if a high haste build would benefit more from Momentum than Demonic. Just ignore mastery and put all your eggs into Blade Dance. Also would be nice if Fel Rush was effected by haste then it definitely would be a possibility to keep Momentum up for every Blade Dance and even without it if they fix Demon Speed should be pretty close to getting momentum up for every BD almost.

I will say though that I feel like an AoE centric build for CMs or what not Mastery will be a more benefitial stat than Vers. Even though it doesn't effect all of your abilities it does scale better than Vers and all of our hardest hitting AoE are Chaos Damage.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I wonder if a high haste build would benefit more from Momentum than Demonic. Just ignore mastery and put all your eggs into Blade Dance. Also would be nice if Fel Rush was effected by haste then it definitely would be a possibility to keep Momentum up for every Blade Dance and even without it if they fix Demon Speed should be pretty close to getting momentum up for every BD almost.

I will say though that I feel like an AoE centric build for CMs or what not Mastery will be a more benefitial stat than Vers. Even though it doesn't effect all of your abilities it does scale better than Vers and all of our hardest hitting AoE are Chaos Damage.

I don't think you'll find much that could be worse than Versatility (assuming your use of Vers. = Versatility) from a damage perspective. Mastery will probably be pretty awesome if you end up running a Fel Barrage build, whenever they decide to put it into a not so NYI state.

I have wondered if maybe Haste would be a good stat to build towards Blade Dance/First Blood, since some of you smarter dudes have established crit isn't so awesome for it in its present state, and mastery neither, which only really leaves Haste and Vers.

[ChakanDH]

Yay!!! All I can see is the outfit from Ace Ventura. So now that is my Avatar. Hahaha.

I think for that to happen, they'll have to make Blade Dance chaos dmg to go with mastery. :/ But then it'll be hard to scale still I think.

I'm also on the Blade dance gravy train - I've only just started dropping it from my rotation recently Hoping they at least do something as simple as reduce the fury cost to 30 to help bring it in line with everything else.

One can but only dream....

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I'm also on the Blade dance gravy train - I've only just started dropping it from my rotation recently Hoping they at least do something as simple as reduce the fury cost to 30 to help bring it in line with everything else.

One can but only dream....

I'd rather they drop it to 40, but that's me. Would let it (*possibly?) more directly compete with Chaos Strike for the same fury but for different purposes (ST vs. Multi-target). I'd also be cool with them removing the CD but reducing it's damage so that it's always the best option for 3+ target situations, though that would also need it to be affected by more things like talents that improve on the multi-target aspect or some stuff in the artifact me thinks.

[Warstar]

I'd rather they drop it to 40, but that's me. Would let it (*possibly?) more directly compete with Chaos Strike for the same fury but for different purposes (ST vs. Multi-target). I'd also be cool with them removing the CD but reducing it's damage so that it's always the best option for 3+ target situations, though that would also need it to be affected by more things like talents that improve on the multi-target aspect or some stuff in the artifact me thinks.

For BD to be a good ability with First Blood I'd really hope they went more towards 20-30 fury cause other wise it's going to be so slow even with haste. Blade Dance > pool pool pool pool > Blade Dance > Pool >CS > Pool > Blade Dance> Pool pool pool.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

For First Blood I'd be okay with going down to 25, I was mostly speaking on using Blade Dance as our 3+ target ability in regards to 40 Fury. You could have First Blood do that on its own I reckon?

[Kuze]

I'm actually wondering if these suggestions wont just end up as set bonuses on our tier sets