Think Blizzard will rebalance Holy against Disc? Making Holy viable again?

[Snowdream]

Since WoTLK Holy has played second fiddle to Disc. Do you think Blizz will use the retooling in Legion to finally make Holy a decent choice again, both in the minds of players and in actual numbers?

I am skeptical... and with good reason. Absorbs, Disc and Holy have been out of whack since WoTLK. That's 2008... 2000 frickin' 8. That's a loooong time for Blizzard to figure out a solution the absorb problem. If, in my hopeful, naive mind, they've been working on a solution for seven years, I really hope to see it in Legion. The realistic and pessimistic side of me thinks, that, if in seven years they haven't done much to solve the problem, it's because they really don't care. And the well-medicated conspiracy theorist inside of me thinks "They probably realize Holy Priests are such a tiny fragment of the population and thought about so little by other players that they can be forgotten about and no one will really care."

And just to be clear, it isn't that Holy is inherently bad. In the hands of the right player it's an incredibly poweful spec. I find it to be an absolute riot in casual PvP.

But for the everyday player, which is the group I am included in... the problem is that it's just not as good as Disc. Given that absorbs will always trump raw healing, it comes as no surprise that Disc came out king over Holy.

...But wouldn't it be great if Holy and Disc finally found some balance with each other? If absorbs were controlled a bit, but not enough to kill the spec? It'd be nice, as a Holy Priest, to actually be let into raids and PVP without having to think "God, how many people are going to harass me until I spec to disc?"

[Deleted]

Blizzard to figure out a solution the absorb problem.

Remove absorbs, or make them into a more CD esque thing, problem solved.

I though in Legion they were restructuring Disc anyway. Removing all the absorbs bar PW:S and putting majority of their focus into Attonement healing and leaving Holy as the traditional healer style.

[Snowdream]

I agree that putting absorbs on a CD and shifting focus away would help with Disc a lot. I am also noticing a lot of utility buffs to Holy Priests, so I'm hoping that's a carrot that will bring in one or two token Holy Priests... I wonder if it's possible that Priests may end up becoming over represented if both Disc and Holy are viable, but distinct healers?

[Xar226]

Holy is perfectly viable right now. Not the best, but perfectly viable.

In Legion? It's looking really strong.

[Kilee25]

It would be interesting to have overhealing for all classes to have some compensating effect. HoTs could be auto-extended. Direct heals might auto-shield the target for the remaining amount. Etc. etc.. perhaps a mana return for overhealing could take effect. Basically I think there needs to be some kind of benefit to healing a target that doesn't take all of your healing. Rather than removing or "fixing" absorbs, perhaps it's the other classes that need fixing instead. Just a thought.

[PhilUK]

Disc has been altered already for Legion, how it will be balanced is up for debate. With the spec now intended to do atonement damage it's possible that they can snipe heals. I doubt they will be as effective at it as HoT classes was during WoTLK.

[Grimbold21]

Holy is currently quite fun - coming from someone who started playing it this xpac - it just isn't powerful as some other specs.

[Cheze]

the problem is that disc has done something unique and useful, while holy does what druid/shaman/monk already do (and generally speaking, not as well.)

they appear to be trying to correct this in legion, but I suspect that as long as disc has PWS (even on a CD) and clarity of will it will be the preferred priest spec

[vulena]

The only way you can be asking this is if you haven't paid literally any attention to the alpha details.

Both specs have wildly changed abilities and playstyles going into Legion, and Holy looks damn near mandatory for raids with that no-mana for healers cooldown and their massive ST heal.

[Nightstorm]

The problem with absorbs is that they show up on healing meters.

Holy suffers because it's spells are poorly designed like Prayer of healing's group restriction, Legion will fix that LONG neglected spell.
If that was fixed then we would have to look at if implementing flash/binding+ PoH on serendipity more into the rotation is par or better than current rotations and if utilize divine insight talent again is an option over twist of fate or a major healing loss as it is now. The weaker PoM deflated divine insight over the more powerful twist of fate.

Serendipity with PoH was the bread and butter of MoP, in WoD renew, CoH, PoM with a little flash/PoH trumps the old rotation where renew was maybe something used on tanks or when little healing was needed now it is more for blankets and CoH CD reduction through Sanctuary. The renew blankets help holy snipe heals more than put out useful ones. Our healing might be overvalued if you take that blanket sniping into consideration. If you were to remove CoH all together Holy would probably never get a raid spot. Without that spell you are just helping the other healers with the little numbers or you might make a good tank healer if Pally's were not already amazing at it.

We either have unbalanced spells or to many of them to the point where some spells feel like lesser options not spells to fill a need in a certain situation. Holy needs a strong PoH. I think the legion changes look great so far, with that being said Holy was incredible in WoD alpha too. Most of the problem Holy has is neglect from blizzard to stay on top of balancing it to other healers.

[Yunzi]

As someone's who's followed the legion disc changes closely...

At the current time with regard to PvE raid healing in Legion, Disc is a double-HoT spec with a big multi-target heal (Atoned Penance) on a 9-second cooldown. The double HoTs will be running continuously on usually around 4 players, but it could be up to 15 or so (temporarily) with a large mana expenditure.

Disc is almost certainly going to be the most complex healing spec to play in Legion - it's power is yet to be determined but should be easily tweakable and therefore balanced. Because the spec has such a high skill ceiling it's going to push away many of the current easy-mode PWS spam-bots out there, and because absorbs are vastly reduced Disc is no longer going to be a necessary spec to have in a serious raid group.

Disc is largely a HoT spec with a big multi-player heal on short cooldown, making it very similar to Resto Druids and Holy Priests. However, the application of this HoT is complicated, since Discs will be applying atonements on specific players IN ADVANCE of predicted damage and casting both DoTs and direct damage spells on enemies to heal them.

As far as whether a typical healing priest will select Holy or Disc as their main spec, I think many current Discs will switch to Holy in Legion. I doubt any spec in the game is having it's degree of complexity raised more than Disc, and if Disc is balanced in power against the other specs, including Holy, there's little reason a regular player would want to suffer a big learning curve just to get the same results he can get more easily with Holy.

Because absorbs are mostly going away and there's no more Weakened Soul, there's no longer a big drawback to having multiple disc priests in a raid.

[VigilantRose]

While people can complain about various issues with meters allocating 'credit' for heals, the fundamental flaw in Discipline was really the Mastery and how it affected scaling.

If you look at beginning-of-expansion performance for Discipline, it was always acceptable-but-not-stellar. However, as the expansion wore on and Mastery started piling on, the incredible scaling of an effectively single spell Mastery made PW:S not only outstrip the performance of all other single target healing methods but also most multi-target healing methods.

With Legion changing the Mastery, this will no longer be the case. Even if Discipline could roll PW:S, it's unlikely that this would be a viable tactic since PW:S will start out as merely a decent single target heal... and it will remain that way throughout the expansion since its scaling won't outstrip everything else.

In terms of Holy, it remains to be seen. The fundamental philosophy of Holy being a cooldown-based 'burst healing' spec should make it extremely potent in PvP, but far more limited in PvE raids. When you have 5 healers available to throw heals, having one of those healers able to routinely cover 50% of a tank's health bar simply isn't very useful. Likewise, a massive AE bomb on mostly random melee (the only place where small radius AE routinely works) is of questionable value.

Holy also appears to maintain its scaling issues. When you look at most healers, they have at least one stat/playstyle that scales exceptionally well. Resto Druids get significantly better use from Haste, Resto Shaman from Mastery, etc. Holy doesn't have this. It's Mastery is merely balanced. It gains no more benefit from Haste than any other non-Druid healer. Holy is one of the few specs with no critical effect boost. In past expansions, this has lead to a situation where Holy is great out of the gate and in the initial 5-man dungeons while gearing up... and then slowly but surely falls behind other healing specs.

[Isheria]

Holy is one of the few specs with no critical effect boost.

Blessing of K'ure Divinity

Are you still sure that holy has no critical effect boost?

[bloodmoth13]

They have new niches, disc is no longer the shield healer, its a offense/defense hybrid, holy is now the Burst heal spec with its holy words which are massive heals on minute long cooldowns

[Deleted]

It would be interesting to have overhealing for all classes to have some compensating effect. HoTs could be auto-extended. Direct heals might auto-shield the target for the remaining amount. Etc. etc.. perhaps a mana return for overhealing could take effect. Basically I think there needs to be some kind of benefit to healing a target that doesn't take all of your healing. Rather than removing or "fixing" absorbs, perhaps it's the other classes that need fixing instead. Just a thought.

That would be awful. Why should you be given mana back/absorb shields for playing badly? Using the right heal at the right time should be more of thing than throw out your biggest heal because any over healing will just turn into an absorb. Absorbs are just out right broken they should definately be removed or extremely limited.

[Snowdream]

Aside from just the Disc-Holy dynamic, I'd like to see Blizzard flat out say that they done screwed up with balancing Holy against Disc and will not let it happen again... It seems like they kind of ignored Holy for... 7 or 8 years?

[PosPosPos]

Aside from just the Disc-Holy dynamic, I'd like to see Blizzard flat out say that they done screwed up with balancing Holy against Disc and will not let it happen again... It seems like they kind of ignored Holy for... 7 or 8 years?

And what would that achieve?

Words are cheap, they made many promises to balance disc properly for the last 2 expacs(or more), and they only succeeded in breaking the spec further with every change.

Rather they prove it by action rather than pull a "Disc Priests are too reliant on absorbs" then proceed to uncap T90 talents.

[Rilas13]

Holy has always been viable, probably better then most other healing classes if we compare to include Classic wow. But standing next to Disc was always disheartening as to be an ideal group in the game you should have Disc in your lineup guaranteed since Wrath which it seems like you acknowledged.

Holy will continue to be just fine as it has been, now it won't be compared to a mechanic that is partially game breaking though. Which is nice because it is often unfairly judged because of Disc.

That being said I wouldn't be surprised if Disc is still preferred over Holy with their new system for other useful reasons. They still have shields but more importantly they do damage as part of the process. Because of the complexity I think if you pit the best Holy vs. Disc on meters the Disc will come out on top as Disc will have the steeper curve and if you have that preemptive healing AND damage down then it will be powerful.

[Nightstorm]

Aside from just the Disc-Holy dynamic, I'd like to see Blizzard flat out say that they done screwed up with balancing Holy against Disc and will not let it happen again... It seems like they kind of ignored Holy for... 7 or 8 years?

Disc is has been a whole new animal for a long time. People should have stopped thinking about it and comparing it to other healers and considered it something else entirely.

Holy has been neglected, some spells being hardly used this expansion to the point they could have removed them and it almost wouldn't have mattered. Dead talents like divine insight that is completely unusable. The changed to Holy are welcome and so is persistent caring and attention as they give other healing specs. Holy being good through vanilla has been no excuse for the neglect over the last 7 years. Some attention is well overdue.

- - - Updated - - -

Holy has always been viable

Holy will continue to be just fine as it has been, now it won't be compared to a mechanic that is partially game breaking though. Which is nice because it is often unfairly judged because of Disc.

I know you are probably referring to PVE and even in that realm that is being very optimistic. Holy had a 0.4% representation through MoP and has climbed to 1% in WoD while other healers enjoy a 4% aside from MW who are lower but still double that of holy.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/statspve-classesrepartition-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html

Holy in PVP saw some hope in MoP but in WoD has been god awful. There is not one holy priest in the PVP ladder and trying to find a group you will get denied for being holy in any none starter or YOLO group.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3

I have many screen shots of trying to get in RBGs as holy and them saying "No one wants a holy priest!" I get that reply daily as I fight for a spot.

[Snowdream]

Holy has always been viable,

Maybe on paper, but not in practical usage.

probably better then most other healing classes if we compare to include Classic wow.

Mmm, I don't think so. Can you honestly take a Resto druid, a Resto Shaman and a Holy Priest and go "God damn, Holy Priests are clearly better and have been so since classic wow." To be frank, I don't see why you'd bring Vanilla up in this capacity. Holy *was* good back then, but that was in 2004. Since WoTLK in 2007, we've been having problems. I think a 3:8 ratio is a bit harsh, don't you think? Not to mention, even in Vanilla, there needed to be at least one Disc priest for the DS buff. So if we're going back that far, let's remember that.

Holy will continue to be just fine as it has been

But it hasn't been fine, I don't understand why you'd say that it has been. We have a 1.1% representation in PVE. We have a .4% representation in PVP. Whereas Disc has a 9.7% representation in PVP and a 4.4% representation in PVE. That's a HUGE gap. And it speaks volumes about the perceived and practical viability of Holy.

That being said I wouldn't be surprised if Disc is still preferred over Holy with their new system for other useful reasons.

I wouldn't be surprised either, sadly.