Should tanks be self sufficient for survivability in raids?

[Vestig3]

The 30 people that voted yes are either healers or people that dont play a tank because no1 in their right mind realy thinks tanks should be self sufficient.

[Deleted]

aladya is the only person in that thread who posted correctly

[Donald Hellscream]

No they shouldn't, they should be able to through proper usage of mitigation slow down the speed of which they die so that healers can keep them alive without having to go into panic mode but they should still rely on healers to keep them alive while they mitigate the incoming damage.

[Deztru]

Tanks should be more self-sufficient but encounters should have more interesting tank tactics.

[bicycle]

Tanks should need a healer. End off. Game has always consisted of Dps, Healer and tanks. And should still be that way. All should be dependant on eachoter. Healer should die if tanks do not protect them. Tanks and dps should die if healers do not heal them. And they all should die if they have no dps. Tanks should NOT be self healing and staying alive in a raid. Nor be able to do competetive dmg.

Taunting when you're told,.moving when you have to, and picking up adds is extremely easy and arguably boring too. Tanks need the extra layer of powerful mostly self sufficient survivability and/or meaningful DPS contribution for the role to be interesting to play at all. All your dogmatic arguments about how the Trinity of roles need to stay in their lanes just because that's how you feel it should be don't hold up to the test of actual gameplay

It used to be that threat was the additional non-binary thing that made tanking interesting, but threat was basically removed from the game, and rightfully so. Now tanks need to be able to meaningfully contribute in other ways. If those ways are not going to be powerful survival (which also gets binary quickly) or powerful DPS, then I'm open to hearing other ideas, but I don't think any such mechanics exist.

[Demeter]

This reminds me of a guild leader I used to know that basically required you to be able to self heal to the point where you didn't need heals at all, only problem was that i wasn't a DK I was a bear druid. Its because of trends like these that nerfs happen.

[Mectrid]

I'd actually like this style of play, whether it'd work is a different story entirely.

You'd have to change encounters ofc, it's doable, but would it feel right?

[Fang7986]

Simply tone down AoE healing and raid CDs then, and keep tanks mostly self-sufficient. As was said above, it is unpleasant to have the "fundamental" aspect of playing a tank (surviving) primarily out of your hands as was the case with some tanks especially in BRF. If there is to be healer interaction with tank survival, let it be somewhat like it is today with the more self-sufficient tanks - namely you have the ability to prevent spikes and have a good degree of self-sufficiency, while healers just add in the raw healing throughput needed to survive.

There is far too much passive healing on tanks nowadays and too many external CDs available, though, and this should definitely change.

Getting rid of all AoE (both heals and dps) would go a long way towards making a lot of things in game better. Let tanks keep a couple of extremely low damage/high threat AoE spells and chuck the rest of the door.

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Tanks should be more self-sufficient but encounters should have more interesting tank tactics.

like what? the minute blizz adds something that requires tanks to do more, the first time it causes a wipe, 1/2 the playerbase will bitch to blizz about it until its removed or never seen again

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Tanks should need a healer. End off. Game has always consisted of Dps, Healer and tanks. And should still be that way. All should be dependant on eachoter. Healer should die if tanks do not protect them. Tanks and dps should die if healers do not heal them. And they all should die if they have no dps. Tanks should NOT be self healing and staying alive in a raid. Nor be able to do competetive dmg.

if tanks are made self sufficient then there is no point in having tanks or heals and everyone should be made dps with every spec having an "oh s%^t" button and encounters would just be avoid/move out of fire

[Jazzhands]

It should be about 40/60 Tank/Healer imo.

In Vanilla, it was almost all healers, Warriors (the only actual tanks back then) only had shield wall, on a long CD, and shield block I think. You mash shield block and sunder, and prey. Prey to the WoW gods. This isn't fun for either role. As a tank you felt helpless when your HP spiked, and healers didn't have that safety net that tanks can supply atm, so their job was more stressful in a negative way.

As it is now, tanks are soloing current expansion raids (normal HM 10). This is ridiculous, active mitigation is incredibly strong for those who really understand it, but also very weak for those who don't, so it's caused a lot of people to drop tanks (although it's probably cause some people to pick them up, I personally find tanks incredibly fun atm), and for the most part has lowered the "quality" of your average tank.

40/60 means you still rely on the healer, but have a bit more control over your damage intake. Best of both worlds for both roles imo.

[Irian]

I think tanks should be able to last on their own to varying degrees against an average boss with average damage, but tank balance shouldn't be based around the idea.

A good example of what I mean is if there was a tank who was exceptionally good at self healing and had high health but almost no mitigation, a tank with almost no self healing but a large amount of defensive CDs, a tank with almost no CDs but high self-healing and mitigation, etc. This allows tanks to all have their own niche.

I think it would be cool to see tanks go further in this direction. I don't think it's necessarily bad if some tanks are superior than others in certain situations.

[cFortyfive]

Getting rid of all AoE (both heals and dps) would go a long way towards making a lot of things in game better.

Like what ?

Taunting when you're told,.moving when you have to, and picking up adds is extremely easy and arguably boring too.

Honestly if you find that boring just switch roles or consider stopping to play at all. It's not like playing a damage dealer is revolutionary different aside from being able to afk trash.

[Sammonoske]

Tanks should be able to keep themselves alive for a period of time before they die. That is part of the job. We have high and low ends of tank self sufficiency, Warriors being low, and Death Knights being the extreme high. Tanks should be in the middle. So my answer is Yes and No.

[bicycle]

Honestly if you find that boring just switch roles or consider stopping to play at all. It's not like playing a damage dealer is revolutionary different aside from being able to afk trash.

Current levels of survival in progression are fun, so I like playing a tank. If our survival was nerfed like a majority in this thread seem to want, nothing of interest would remain for a good tank, and we'd leave in droves.

I'm hoping legion lets tanks make gameplay decisions to push much stronger DPS after progression is done, too, so that once survival is guaranteed we can start making a meaningful contribution to improving kill speeds. Same for healers as well.

[Jazzhands]

Current levels of survival in progression are fun, so I like playing a tank. If our survival was nerfed like a majority in this thread seem to want, nothing of interest would remain for a good tank, and we'd leave in droves.

I'm hoping legion lets tanks make gameplay decisions to push much stronger DPS after progression is done, too, so that once survival is guaranteed we can start making a meaningful contribution to improving kill speeds. Same for healers as well.

This already exists to a degree. For example, monks can stack crit over mastery and take chisplosion over Serenity to put out a lot more damage while sacrificing personal defense. DKs can stack Multi over Mastery and take Breath to do tons of damage while losing defense.

I definitely agree with your first point though, tanking is more fun than its ever been, and from what I've seen of legion so far I'm a little worried.

[Deleted]

In terms of defense? Yes.
In terms of healing? No.

Not a fan of healing spells on tanks tbh. It is reactionary and often wasted.

[freddy090909]

For stuff like 5-mans, a tank should be fairly self-sufficient. For raids, they should need some amount of external healing, but should also be able to outgear the content so that healers are less needed.

This is more my opinion in the context of "normal" damage (autos, spammed spells). During periods of high damage intake, you will obviously need more healing.

[bicycle]

This already exists to a degree. For example, monks can stack crit over mastery and take chisplosion over Serenity to put out a lot more damage while sacrificing personal defense. DKs can stack Multi over Mastery and take Breath to do tons of damage while losing defense.

I definitely agree with your first point though, tanking is more fun than its ever been, and from what I've seen of legion so far I'm a little worried.

Yeah, we can, but the effects are really hard to feel outside of tracking percentile rankings via warcraftlogs. I want something more immediate, more visceral. I want to put up a fight for the local skada damage meter if the DPS are slacking or it happens to be a really good fight for my class, and without just having one of the dumbest trinkets Blizzard has ever released letting me do 100k dps on Xhul. Outside of parse percentages, right now tank DPS basically feels pointless, and I'd like that to change.

[cFortyfive]

I'm hoping legion lets tanks make gameplay decisions to push much stronger DPS after progression is done.

You are at least according to your sig a paladin who already deal entirely disproportional dps on certain encounters thanks to trinkets or not. Just leave already I really don't care as long as something as retarded as mop does never come back. You very obviously so want to be a damage dealer so just go ahead and reroll.

[slime]

Seemed to be quite the popular topic of discussion in the warrior tank thread that I thought deserved its own topic.

In raids, would you like to see tanks continue to be self sufficient and take care of themselves or require healers to look after even the greatest of tanks?

Personally, I'm torn on this. On the one hand, it makes sense that a tank, whose job it is to be a meat shield, should be in charge of their own success or failure. On the other, it also makes sense that healers to do their job need to heal. And shouldn't they be healing the person taking the most damage too?

That idea makes the game sound much better.

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Yeah, we can, but the effects are really hard to feel outside of tracking percentile rankings via warcraftlogs. I want something more immediate, more visceral. I want to put up a fight for the local skada damage meter if the DPS are slacking or it happens to be a really good fight for my class, and without just having one of the dumbest trinkets Blizzard has ever released letting me do 100k dps on Xhul. Outside of parse percentages, right now tank DPS basically feels pointless, and I'd like that to change.

Then you need to play a dps class, not a tank. Pretty fucking simple actually.

[Deleted]

It's an MMORPG. Stress on the second M. You can't solo your way out of it.