Flare and disengage in our main rotation...

[NoShelter]

Just reviewed the talents for legion MM.

selecting certain talents will force you to keep flare active in Pve... because we're already having sooo much fun watching tanks pull bosses out of our blademaster trinkets

Also, selecting a certain talent gives us a damage buff after we disengage. Putting disengage in our dps rotation will certainly ensure that it's not available in clutch moments to save ourselves.

I also just watched the video of our artifact quest, and watched the MM hunter face-tank every mob and get brutally punished for any kiting or movement.


My 5 year old niece could have designed these talents better.
Very poor talent design, legion is looking bleak to say the least.

And all you blizzard litigators: go ahead and say "its only alpha". You probably said the same thing before we were fed a giant shit sandwich in WoD too

[Azortharion]

If you need your Disengage for clutch moments, don't use it for DPS. Fucking duh.

Also, you're assuming that those talents will actually be used on the regular, which may not the case because yes, it is alpha. I don't know what shit sandwich you're talking about, all they "fed us" in WoD was almost nothing at all, except removing a bunch of stuff. Plenty of people like the current specs. All of them, two of them, or just one of them. You're the only one chewing shit sandwich here.

The hunter you saw was shit, you can kite without much penalty on the alpha right now. You have an instant-cast AoE disorient that doesn't break from damage, and a powerful stun every 45 seconds.

[alucardtnuoc]

If you need disengage to escape a mechanic, here are a few ways to go about it.

1. Get boss timers, Doing so will allow you to see when such mechanics are going to happen and allow you to prepare for it
2. Don't choose that talent, you aren't forced to take it and hopefully their will be other choices for you to pick.
3. It's alpha, how sure are you that this isn't a quick test to see if it will be useful for pvp and to include it in the hunters pvp tree.

Like, what are the other options on those two tiers, are both of them filled out, do they look like they are in the right spot, how do they compare with the others.

you're so quick to bash them, why not give them some constructive feedback, it's far from finalized. Things can change and complaining the way you're doing is not the best way to go about it.

[NoShelter]

If you need your Disengage for clutch moments, don't use it for DPS. Fucking duh.

Also, you're assuming that those talents will actually be used on the regular, which may not the case because yes, it is alpha. I don't know what shit sandwich you're talking about, all they "fed us" in WoD was almost nothing at all, except removing a bunch of stuff. Plenty of people like the current specs. All of them, two of them, or just one of them. You're the only one chewing shit sandwich here.

The hunter you saw was shit, you can kite without much penalty on the alpha right now. You have an instant-cast AoE disorient that doesn't break from damage, and a powerful stun every 45 seconds.

Thank you Azor, for your guides and info. That being said, here's my response;


Farstrider + kill flip will yield a 50% damage buff with fairly high uptime. "Don't use it for dps" Azor, you should know better than that... of course we will use it for dps.. Bottom line is: defensive CD's shouldn't be talented into damage buffs. It's a bad idea. It's such an obviously bad idea, I question the sanity of whomever thought of it. If this is the level of intelligence being put into our class design... holy cow.

And the shit sandwich I'm referring to in WoD is: sniper training for MM, top-tier talents that negate lower tier talents. Exotic munitions being utterly useless. SV spec at launch doing less damage at range than a ret pally.

Did you find those things acceptable?

I didn't.

We didn't yell loudly enough in alpha/beta for WoD, so yes it's time to yell loudly and clearly about dumbass broken talents.

[Charge me Doctor]

If you need your Disengage for clutch moments, don't use it for DPS. Fucking duh.

/thread.
If you put DPS over survivability - you are shitty raider. Imagine rogue saying "i had no energy to feint and died from aoe lol"

Also, i wonder, what sort of raid mechanic can be unavoidable without disengage? I mean, i main mage and have no issues with my 2 swag blinks and AT, but how, say, paladins or priests are doing? They don't have disengage and somehow managed their get-out-of-shit duty.
What sort of an encounter requires you to disengage?

[Feuerbart]

I think choosing what to use an ability for is what makes specs interesting and gives us options to shine in comparison to facerollers.
If you need the ability for defensive then you don´t use it for damage. Know when to deal damage and when to stay alive is what makes a good player.

[Pyrophobia]

It is so wrong to give such a big dps buff to disengage that is supposed to be used to get away from tricky situations.
Being such a big buff will mean that almost everyone will use it and that our dps will be balanced around using it.
And that means when you can't jump around like a rabbit like you can do in LFR and not care your dps will suffer.

I doubt more than 1 mythic fight per tier will allow us to jump around freely.
But it's alfa right. Hopefully MM will be so bad that nobody will play it to complain about the jumping right?
Just NO ... can we have all 3 specs playable for a change? Hopefully one day we will.

Bad design is just easy to spot and can be addressed easily early on.
That said it's MM testing now. Sadly i don't have access to the beta so i can't provide the needed feedback on that poorly designed talent.

[Huggykaze]

Thank you Azor, for your guides and info. That being said, here's my response;


Farstrider + kill flip will yield a 50% damage buff with fairly high uptime. "Don't use it for dps" Azor, you should know better than that... of course we will use it for dps.. Bottom line is: defensive CD's shouldn't be talented into damage buffs. It's a bad idea. It's such an obviously bad idea, I question the sanity of whomever thought of it. If this is the level of intelligence being put into our class design... holy cow.

And the shit sandwich I'm referring to in WoD is: sniper training for MM, top-tier talents that negate lower tier talents. Exotic munitions being utterly useless. SV spec at launch doing less damage at range than a ret pally.

Did you find those things acceptable?

I didn't.

We didn't yell loudly enough in alpha/beta for WoD, so yes it's time to yell loudly and clearly about dumbass broken talents.

Uhm... I'm not sure if open alpha is a good moment to talk about numbers, which are obvious not tuned... But, what do I know... We were one of the most OP classes over whole expac mostly thanks to Azor's and few others' "ranting" to devs, there was always at least one very good spec to choose.

Also if Kill Flip stays and is indeed best talent choice for DPS then, despite it being a bitch to use, I'm more than happy as this will at long last bring some depth into otherwise boring and bland MM gameplay.

And srsly? Was ST so bad for you? Try being a caster, lol... They don't lose 20% dmg for movement, they lose 100%. Lone Wolf negated some choices, ok, but for goodness sake, it's a talent, nobody forces you to take it.

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Hunters were bad in wod? I must have played a different game.

Well our high end scaling is shit, but on the other hand not many players progress with 730 or 740 gear...

[Pyrophobia]

Uhm... I'm not sure if open alpha is a good moment to talk about numbers, which are obvious not tuned... But, what do I know... We were one of the most OP classes over whole expac mostly thanks to Azor's and few others' "ranting" to devs, there was always at least one very good spec to choose.

Also if Kill Flip stays and is indeed best talent choice for DPS then, despite it being a bitch to use, I'm more than happy as this will at long last bring some depth into otherwise boring and bland MM gameplay.

And srsly? Was ST so bad for you? Try being a caster, lol... They don't lose 20% dmg for movement, they lose 100%. Lone Wolf negated some choices, ok, but for goodness sake, it's a talent, nobody forces you to take it.

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Well our high end scaling is shit, but on the other hand not many players progress with 730 or 740 gear...

Lone wolf negating other talent choices was bad. We learned to live with it but it's an obvious gap in the design.
The idea for the talents imo is to be able to switch between them based on the boss and/or your desires.

When 3 talents don't work AT ALL with one of the other talents you picked then it's bad design
When 2-3 talents are so weak that nobody ever picks them that's bad tuning.
When they make you jump around to increase DPS that's like that joke from "The last hunter PvE guide you will ever need" to quote the part so it can stay here: "As I'm sure you have noticed, Hunters jump around constantly. Many believe this is because they have a bad case of ADHD or it's just because they can continue to use their abilities while jumping - this is completely wrong. Jumping is a Hunter's #1 DPS tool. If you jump 20-30 times per minute, your DPS will increase by at least 30k. More jumping is recommended for better results, but not necessary. I, like many other Hunters, have every ability macro'd to jump. This results in optimal DPS. " Maybe a class designer thought it will be fun to turn a joke into reality ...

And jumping around adding depth to our rotation ? OMG are you serious is it that kind of depth you desire from our class designers ? ? ?
Such hunter, so design, many depth !!!

[Dwoggurd]

And srsly? Was ST so bad for you? Try being a caster, lol... They don't lose 20% dmg for movement, they lose 100%.

I'm still not convinced that affliction warlocks lose 100% damage for movement. Can you elaborate more?

[Beoren]

I think that Kill Flip is just bad design- imagine a Mage that needs to use blink to increase his damage its not a fun mechanic.. and dosen't fit the MM fantasy... I wouldn't enjoy d/e every 20 secs for dmg boost but thats just me I hope its a placeholder and Blizzard will replace it.

Although I can see a place for a talent like this in the PVP talent tree (with lower damage increase).

[Deleted]

I like the thought, it feels Hunter-y. Let's see how it pans out when it actually goes live.

[Cracked]

The design is good, it turns ie disengage into a resource that you can use either for damage or for moving around quick, or both if you are decent. It makes playing optimal a fair bit harder and increases the learning curve of encounters which are both good things from design perspective.

TLDR: you are salty that playing MM will be harder than spamming 2 spells and are blaming bad design when in fact it's not.

[Huggykaze]

I'm still not convinced that affliction warlocks lose 100% damage for movement. Can you elaborate more?

So, out of Boomkins, Frost, Fire and Arcane Mages, Ele Shammies, Destro and Demo Locks, CoP Priests who lose most of their damage while moving, you chose the DoT class to either be an idiot or troll me? Jesus Christ...

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Lone wolf negating other talent choices was bad. We learned to live with it but it's an obvious gap in the design.
The idea for the talents imo is to be able to switch between them based on the boss and/or your desires.

When 3 talents don't work AT ALL with one of the other talents you picked then it's bad design
When 2-3 talents are so weak that nobody ever picks them that's bad tuning.
When they make you jump around to increase DPS that's like that joke from "The last hunter PvE guide you will ever need" to quote the part so it can stay here: "As I'm sure you have noticed, Hunters jump around constantly. Many believe this is because they have a bad case of ADHD or it's just because they can continue to use their abilities while jumping - this is completely wrong. Jumping is a Hunter's #1 DPS tool. If you jump 20-30 times per minute, your DPS will increase by at least 30k. More jumping is recommended for better results, but not necessary. I, like many other Hunters, have every ability macro'd to jump. This results in optimal DPS. " Maybe a class designer thought it will be fun to turn a joke into reality ...

And jumping around adding depth to our rotation ? OMG are you serious is it that kind of depth you desire from our class designers ? ? ?
Such hunter, so design, many depth !!!

Not to rotation, to gameplay, as someone mentioned, it'll be a choice to either Disengage or save it to avoid something more easily, not to mention you can't blindly Disengage on most of the fights...

LW is still A CHOICE. You don't have to pick it, it doesn't force you to drop other talents for just being there. It's your choice and its consequences... FS does pretty well, but isn't first choice in HFC due to a lot of high prio targets... I've played it on most mythic encounters and no I wasn't below tanks or anything. Also I'm sorry, but what's your professional experience as game designer to say something is bad design? o.O Exchanges are fun, getting something for free isn't.

[Devilyaki]

I agree, hunters are looking more and more shit the more stuff they release. From melee lol to pet removed to now this stupid shit. You know they won't change it ether, not till months after live goes and ever one moved on to other classes.

[Ratyrel]

Good thing about talents now is that you can pick which one you want. Having more outlandish options is only a bad thing if they're actually broken or completely unbalanced imo. Also bosses/mobs being moved from static ground AoE has been a problem in this game since its release, that is not a problem specific to this talent.

[Huggykaze]

Good thing about talents now is that you can pick which one you want. Having more outlandish options is only a bad thing if they're actually broken or completely unbalanced imo. Also bosses/mobs being moved from static ground AoE has been a problem in this game since its release, that is not a problem specific to this talent.

It's called user error and nobody can be assed to "fix" it :P

[Trictagon]

Sadly kill flip doesn't even work at all in current build. It applies the buff, but the buff literally does nothing. IMO it should be changed to a significantly smaller number like 10%, 50% is pretty dumb. The flare talent isn't anywhere near viable in that tier right now, largely because headshot hits absurdly hard.

[Huggykaze]

Sadly kill flip doesn't even work at all in current build. IMO it should be changed to a significantly smaller number like 10%, 50% is pretty dumb.

50% might seem like a lot, but don't forget we're losing our unobstructed mobility. While jumping back we won't be able to shoot. While going back to our spot, we won't be able to shoot. Our uptime will be significantly lower with this talent :P

[Aleksej89]

I do not like mixing DPS cooldowns with defensive cooldowns.

Shamans had that issue with Shamanistic rage, since that spell granted a DPS buff, a defensive buff and dispelled magic...