Best MOBA of all time

[pateuvasiliu]

If the term is so vague

It's not vague at all.

Ingame advantages based on real life currency = pay to win.

It's really fucking simple.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to comprehend it, but you're pretty much the only one with this issue. So the problem lies with you.

Even if you used such; one would have to show these items or services are actual advantages

They are. Having all heroes means you can rotate based on FOTM.

One is not speaking or writing in English if so. This is an English language forum. One should read posts with that assumption.

In the gaming environment that's what pay to win means. ''Pay-to-win'' does not exist in English outside gaming. You're the one that's the stranger here.

You don't get to make your own words.

[Deleted]

So you're not disagreeing with what I said about heroes not being analogous to gear due to there not being any actual direct increase in character strength?

If you think scissors don't have advantage over paper, then we have nothing to talk about. If I have access to a hero you don't have a counter to in your rooster - you're fucked. Period.

[Fallen Angel]

If you think scissors don't have advantage over paper, then we have nothing to talk about. If I have access to a hero you don't have a counter to in your rooster - you're fucked. Period.

Except this isn't rock paper scissors. It's paper/rock/rock/scissors/paper or any combination thereof. Mobas are not 1v1 unless they have a mode or players decide upon that, but they will never be balanced without 5v5 in mind.

[pateuvasiliu]

Except this isn't rock paper scissors. It's paper/rock/rock/scissors/paper or any combination thereof. Mobas are not 1v1 unless they have a mode or players decide upon that, but they will never be balanced without 5v5 in mind.

The opponent picks X hero which Y counters perfectly but surprise I don't have him because I'm a free to play user!


I pick X hero and the opponent counterpicks because he spent $$ and has all heroes!


If you can't see how this is unfair then you are simply blind.

[Fallen Angel]

The opponent picks X hero which Y counters perfectly but surprise I don't have him because I'm a free to play user!


I pick X hero and the opponent counterpicks because he spent $$ and has all heroes!


If you can't see how this is unfair then you are simply blind.

There is no such thing as a perfect counter when personal skill and team comp is taken into effect. You are the blind one if you cannot see that. Mobas are not 1v1 and are not balanced 1v1.

[pateuvasiliu]

There is no such thing as a perfect counter when personal skill and team comp is taken into effect.

The idea of Ranked is that you play with people of the same skill.

You are the blind one if you cannot see that. Mobas are not 1v1 and are not balanced 1v1.

Lanes are. If someone can destroy top lane without anyone being able to do shit that someone usually gets banned every game until he gets nerfed.

Your attempt at strawmanning is really bad. Counterpicks matter in 5v5 too, not just 1v1.

For instance if the enemy team is chock full of tanks and I wouldn't be able to pick N'aix because I didn't have him bought that would be a massive disadvantage. Luckily DotA has no pay to win elements.

[Fallen Angel]

The idea of Ranked is that you play with people of the same skill.

So you're going to be at a standstill since you'll be able to dodge all of OP heroes skillshots, and them yours, right?

Lanes are. If someone can destroy top lane without anyone being able to do shit that someone usually gets banned every game until he gets nerfed.

Your attempt at strawmanning is really bad. Counterpicks matter in 5v5 too, not just 1v1.

For instance if the enemy team is chock full of tanks and I wouldn't be able to pick N'aix because I didn't have him bought that would be a massive disadvantage. Luckily DotA has no pay to win elements.

Lane swaps are a thing. If you can't handle a solo lane against a certain hero, you can rotate your bot lane to put them at a disadvantage and vice versa.

It's very clear you hate the business model of buying heroes. I honestly don't like it much either. However, you are not suddenly going to lose every game against someone who paid for all their heroes, even if you only own ones you got from playing the game/f2p rotation, nor are you going to win every game because you bought everything.

[pateuvasiliu]

So you're going to be at a standstill since you'll be able to dodge all of OP heroes skillshots, and them yours, right?

No, of course not? What's that have to do with what I said?

However, you are not suddenly going to lose every game against someone who paid for all their heroes, even if you only own ones you got from playing the game/f2p rotation, nor are you going to win every game because you bought everything.

Nor are you going to win every duel if you buy PvP gear. You still can't buy skill. But the advantage, which causes ''pay-to-win'' accusations to manifest, is still very much there.

[kail]

The idea of Ranked is that you play with people of the same skill.

That is not going to happen until many games later, unless League changed the account level requirement. You can easily rack up the IP, even with losses, to buy the heroes you are comfortable with. That and league allows top laners to still stay relevant even when hard countered. That's the beauty of safe farming.

Do you have an advantage of having every single hero? Sure, but no by much. Top players tend to get used to a handful of champs, master them and climb. Simply having the entire roster won't suddenly make you decent at playing each champ. I recall pro players streaming, trying out the new champ and flat out suck at them due to not being used to the skill shot ranges, speed, width, etc.

[pateuvasiliu]

That and league allows top laners to still stay relevant even when hard countered. That's the beauty of safe farming.

That's... DotA, really. League's top laners usually need to snowball to stay relevant unless the game changed since I stopped playing it.

In DotA the offlaner is usually a hero that doesn't need the gold to pull his weight. Like Bristleback.

[kail]

That's... DotA, really. League's top laners usually need to snowball to stay relevant unless the game changed since I stopped playing it.

Must have been a while ago. Top laners could snowball, like any other champ in league. But the lane is somewhat safe if you play safe and have a competent jg. If anything it's a super boring role IMO (hence why I mained jg).

My main point is that having an enormous roster of playable champs is a super small factor in reaching high ranks. Money spending exists in LoL for skins and for those who want champs while not having the time to play many games.

[Deleted]

So again...what you quoted from me...you agree or disagree?

Hard counters exist in every moba. So yeah, I disagree.

And it's funny you mention non-ranked play. That's where you can feel "the pain" of laning against a hero/champ that is a rock to your scissors the most. In ranked/premade If I get unlucky - or make a draft mistake - I can communicate with the team to switch lanes etc. In non ranked the chance that people will listen to your pleads are close to zero.

Again it's all about how particular game is designed, if there is wide enough (roles/type etc) rooster of characters available to everyone from the start, the issue is non-existent. If it's otherwise, then people who "pay" may gain a clear advantage. I did something very similar in Hots, bought almost all heroes in day one, and played those chars which gave me best chances to win against those with "standard rooster". Kinda steamrolled to max lvl...

[Fencers]

It's not vague at all.

Define the parameters.

Ingame advantages based on real life currency = pay to win.

Again, even if one works under that assumption; define what an advantage is relative to the gameplay expression.

They are. Having all heroes means you can rotate based on FOTM.

That doesn't mean it's an advantage, per se. It certainly doesn't mean it is a win.

In the gaming environment that's what pay to win means. ''Pay-to-win'' does not exist in English outside gaming. You're the one that's the stranger here.

You don't get to make your own words.

No one is making up words. Pay, to and win existed in the English language long before I was even born. In English the words as written, pay-to-win, denote the reader is the take each word literally.

If you write, pay to win, sans hyphens the reader must assume what the term implies based on the connotation and context of the sentence.

This is not mysterious.

If what one actually means 'a purchasable advantage' this is perfectly fine, as I said thrice already. But what constitutes that advantage is hugely subjective and not applicable from game to game. Making the claim at best dubious and at worst one's own personal pocket definition. None of which should be anyone's concern.

[Deleted]

The quote wasn't about counters, it was about gear.

Again, why did you quote it and take on a contrary tone if you didn't want to discuss that? Why have you been dodging it so hard?

What's the difference between me poking you to death with a hero (you don't have access to) which is a hard counter to yours than a peace of gear that gives me 100+ more stats than you have? Both are clear advantages.

At this point I can see that you are basically trolling me. I refuse to believe you are incapable of understanding my previous posts.

[minteK917]

Thread should be ended using logic. In dota and lol, Queue times are long when you are high rated. In Heroes queue times are always long and keep getting longer. Last time i tried playing my queue in ranked was over 12 minutes. The game is doing exactly the opposite of all other mobas, the others are growing still and heroes lose players from its release. I can already tell you now by 2017 blizzard will have stopped the full support. Youll get the same support diablo 2 gets.

This is a website with mostly wow player, polls here are unimportant. If you check any other third party poll, heroes is never even in the top 5 of votes. Its clear for anyone outside of blizzard most hardcore fan that this game is a bigger failure then D3, D3 was eventually revamped and was able to retain some kind of player base in its genre. Heroes is not even doing that and is not doing anything to change that either.

Now some idiot is gona be like but dude Heroes was on ESPN ONE TIME! Well dude other video game also on there and they pay to air there. Blizzard just chunked some cash to have it there. Being on ESPN3 means dick, we know it means dick, because when Heroes was on ESPN3, the same competition it couldnt even break top 5 in twitch views. Just because blizzard paid ESPN to air the game, doesent mean somebody is actually watching it. The gaming community clearly was not watching it over the internet, let alone ESPN. When king of fighters get 10 times your views during EVO then your "world cup", you should rethink what growing and success is in your book.

[pateuvasiliu]

Again, even if one works under that assumption; define what an advantage is relative to the gameplay expression.

Getting heroes others work for ingame for free.

That doesn't mean it's an advantage, per se. It certainly doesn't mean it is a win.

Yes it does for the first sentence. The second is irrelevant.

''Pay to win'' does not exist in its literal sense. No game makes you win for paying. Some just give you obnoxious advantages that almost ensure you win.

No one is making up words. Pay, to and win existed in the English language long before I was even born. In English the words as written, pay-to-win, denote the reader is the take each word literally.

If you write, pay to win, sans hyphens the reader must assume what the term implies based on the connotation and context of the sentence.

This is not mysterious.

You're being obtuse on purpose and I refuse to be baited.

But I'll rate you 7/10, you're pretty good at it for a moderator.

MMOC keeps getting classier each year.