Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Philondra]

Your math isn't off. You're just misunderstanding him. What he's saying is the 29% of players taking purgatory is a lot higher representation for purgatory than we see on other fights in this tier.

[Tehr]

Your math isn't off. You're just misunderstanding him. What he's saying is the 29% of players taking purgatory is a lot higher representation for purgatory than we see on other fights in this tier.

That's correct. While I've been running Blood Mirror and I'm pretty happy with it (even if just for the usefulness it provides outside of P3), I think Purgatory may be considered if P3 is where you're dying.

[Deleted]

But the people that pick purgatory 18% of that 29% don't get any use out of it. They die when it procs or they don't proc it at all.

If you're dying in Phase 3, even as a Blood DK, you're bad. It's very easy to get enough distance between yourself and the boss to at least survive every hit. Rune tap is usually enough. I didn't even use Wraith Walk for a majority of the spears. When the platform gets more crowded later on you have IBF, Blood Mirror, Vampiric, BoP and many other cooldowns to use. If crap does really hit the fan you can always have a DPS taunt and sacrifice themselves or immune the damage, if they can.

[Deleted]

Im think i will go with spectral deflection and rune tap for m odyn. dnd uptime seems to be very low in p2/3. but we are still progressing p2 -_-

[Tojara]

Probably a good fight for spectral deflection. Odyn himself really doesn't hit that hard and you're moving around a lot anyway, so DnD is going to be sketchy at best. Realistically the only thing that can kill you in the fight is if you get one shot by his spear, or you tank him for far too long in P2 when he buffs himself for that ~30 second period that requires a tank swap. Obviously there are other ways to die though, but those are well within your control.

I'd take blood mirror simply because P3 usually does last long enough that you can probably use 2 of them for your first kills. Additionally you can get some DPS value out of it in P2 as well, even if it doesn't matter.

[Tehr]

But the people that pick purgatory 18% of that 29% don't get any use out of it. They die when it procs or they don't proc it at all.

If you're dying in Phase 3, even as a Blood DK, you're bad. It's very easy to get enough distance between yourself and the boss to at least survive every hit. Rune tap is usually enough. I didn't even use Wraith Walk for a majority of the spears. When the platform gets more crowded later on you have IBF, Blood Mirror, Vampiric, BoP and many other cooldowns to use. If crap does really hit the fan you can always have a DPS taunt and sacrifice themselves or immune the damage, if they can.

It's important to note that taking an ability that WOULD have saved you is still not a waste even if it wasn't needed. Additionally, you're just looking at kills as opposed to attempts. I think you're being too quick to judge.

[Deleted]

Did some tries with SD + RT, its more than enough for the spear. When somebody fucks up a tornado i use ibf or an external on top and save bop for emergencies (e.g. co-tank dead). No Need for Purg imho

[Deleted]

It's important to note that taking an ability that WOULD have saved you is still not a waste even if it wasn't needed. Additionally, you're just looking at kills as opposed to attempts. I think you're being too quick to judge.

Who cares about what talents were picked on wipes. I bet some people are using tombstone that doesn't mean it's viable in anyway.

[Tehr]

Who cares about what talents were picked on wipes. I bet some people are using tombstone that doesn't mean it's viable in anyway.

You SHOULD care about what talents were picked on wipes. Talent changes show that a player was experimenting and we as observers can use their experimentation to find more optimal strategies.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Purgatory is the best option, I'm saying that it may be a viable pick if you're struggling in P3.

On an unrelated note, Highwhale got banned.

[redfella]

Again? /10char

[Deleted]

It seems there has already been a "fix" to Blood Mirror absorbing / reflecting Overkill Damage. Just checked some of my logs from Odyn where i popped Blood Mirror for the lulz on some wipes. Boneshield absorb still is calculated from total damage taken including Overkill as you would expect. Blood Mirror absorb not. Its 20% from damage taken excluding Overkill and absorb. feels bad man.

Edit:
its 20% from remaing hp if you get overkilled. i get it on the reflecting damage part but the absorb being reduced if an attack will kill you is actually pretty bad an weakens the defense potential

[Deleted]

You SHOULD care about what talents were picked on wipes. Talent changes show that a player was experimenting and we as observers can use their experimentation to find more optimal strategies.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Purgatory is the best option, I'm saying that it may be a viable pick if you're struggling in P3.

On an unrelated note, Highwhale got banned.

If purgatory is a viable pick for you because you are dying in phase 3 then you are not a viable tank to be doing mythics.

No I really shouldn't care what people who are wiping to on bosses are using because THEY are wiping to the boss, whereas I am killing the boss. Big difference.

[Philondra]

Organizing our talent changes by row:

Bloodworms: 5% missing health to 15% missing health
Heartbreaker: 3 RP to 2 RP
Blooddrinker: No change

Rapid Decomposition: 50% faster D&D to 15% faster D&D, 15% RP generation to 1 RP/second
Soulgorge: No change
Spectral Deflection: No change

Ossuary: No change
Blood Tap: Cooldown reduction from 1s to 2s
Anti-Magic Barrier: No change

Mark of Blood: 2% health to 3% health.
Red Thirst: No change
Tombstone: 3% health, 3 RP per charge, up to 10 charges to 6% health, 6 RP per charge, up to 5 charges

Tightening Grasp: 60s cooldown reduction to 30s cooldown reduction
Tremble Before Me: No change
March of the Damned: 50% duration increase to 100% duration increase

Will of the Necropolis: 20% damage reduction to 35% damage reduction
Rune Tap: 25% damage reduction to 40% damage reduction
Foul Bulwark: No change

Bonestorm: 1% max health to 2% max health
Blood Mirror: No change
Purgatory: 3m CD to 4m CD

-----

Blood Worms vs. Heatbreaker needs to be mathed out (I'll have a crack at this later)
Rapid Decomposition is a straight-up nerf because neither of the other talents have changed. Soulgorge still a hot moss.
Blood Tap could see more use if we switch away from Heartbreaker due to the nerf.
Mark of Blood and Tombstone still DPS losses
Utility Tier still depends on what content you're doing (the Tightening Grasp nerf isn't really much of a nerf due to the decreased CD of Gorefiend's)
WotN/RT/Foul Bulwark tier more competitive as a whole.
Last tier still depends on what content you're doing.

[figuratively]

I feel like their solution to "default talents" was to make us less viable, looking at some of those nerfs.

[Cobat]

I was just on the ptr and I noticed that blood drinker (lvl 56 talent) was hitting for nearly triple the damage and healing its doing on live and it isn't noted in today's build notes.

(1293% AP > 3000% AP damage and healing) I'm not sure if it was noted somewhere else, but do you think it'll make blood drinker competitive with the other two choices on the tier?

[Philondra]

The worst cast scenario for Heartbreaker/Rapid Decompoisition is probably something like this:

1 Marrowrend + 6 Heart Strikes while standing in Death and Decay vs. 5 enemies (this is probably unrealistic outside of an opener, but humor me for a moment):

On Live: 23+34+34+34+35+35+35 = 230 RP
Proposed: 20+25+25+25+25+25+25+10 = 180 RP

So the worst case scenario is that we lose about 1.25 death strikes per D&D, provided that we're facing 5 targets, can use 8 runes over 10 seconds, and only need to refresh bone shield once. We also lose a lot of D&D damage. This obviously nerfs us more in solo and 5-man content than in raids.

Comparing Bloodworms and Heartbreaker, the best case scenario for Bloodworms is clearly a single target fight. In a world where we don't generate extra RP from standing in Death and Decay, we need to use 20 Heart Strikes (!) to gain enough RP for an extra Death Strike. However, our Bone Shield stacks won't be eaten as frequently in 7.1.5, so we'll be able to use more Heart Strikes than we do currently. Whether or not Bloodworms is worth it hinges heavily on its proc rate. Does anyone know that number off-hand?

[Cobat]

I believe the rppm rate is 5 for blood worms

[Deleted]

at a glance i am a bit confused.
As figuratively mentioned instead of making default talents baseline they just nerf heartbreaker and rapid decomp, wtf. also we will be able to spend more runes on hs after the boneshield fix i´ll guess this will still hurt us especially in m+.

First Row:
I´ll guess both Worms and Blooddriker will pull ahead in single target fights. 20 HS for one extra DS is a lot. The Buff to Blooddrinker (1293% ap to 3000% ap) is in the ptr calculater but missing in the notes, should at least be a huge st dps boost if it stays this way.

Second Row:
Soulgorge: Really?

Third Row:
The Blood Tap Change seems to be a compensation and not a buff. thank god we will lose less charges in the future so imho it still cant compete with ossuary.
AMB: still meh

4th Row:
Tombestone and Mark of Blood still cant compete with Red Thirst, Vampiric Fangs trait even got buffed by 5%. Time to nerf Red Thirst!

5th Row:
Not much to say

6th Row:
Overall more competitive, 40% RT is huge. For fights with high consinstent damage WotN is way more attractive now while RT will be the default choice for anti burst. IBF only being 30% dr seems awkward now.

7th Row:
Same as on live. Blood Mirror default choice for raiding and Bonestorm for m+.

I was just on the ptr and I noticed that blood drinker (lvl 56 talent) was hitting for nearly triple the damage and healing its doing on live and it isn't noted in today's build notes.

(1293% AP > 3000% AP damage and healing) I'm not sure if it was noted somewhere else, but do you think it'll make blood drinker competitive with the other two choices on the tier?

Have you tested the Boneshield Change? What happens if we parry a melee swing?

---

And i still hope there will be a change to buff consumption in st situations or making unending thirst useful outside off-tanking

[Cobat]

Have you tested the Boneshield Change? What happens if we parry a melee swing?

I did some testing with the training dummy in our order hall. He swings just fast enough that if his first hit eats a boneshield, his second one won't (Internal cooldown) and his third one will again if it connects.

Whenever I managed to parry that third attack, it wouldn't eat up a bone shield charge, so I'm assuming that parried attacks still don't consume the charges.

[Deleted]

So, they took our most picked talents, and instead of baking some of them into the spec they straight out nerfed them. I believed they would rework buff other talents instead to make them more competitive. The fact that Soulgorge is still there makes me wonder. The only row I'm happy with is the WoTN, RT, FB one, since I can see myself swapping talent depending on the ecounter and/or content. Quite interested in the Blood Drinker talent, might be a huge increase in dps for st fights.

Quite disappointed they still whaven't addressed Consumption being completely useless in st and kind of mediocre on small pulls.

Patch day is still far anway, we might see more changes for the better.