Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[leorana]

Question:
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that at some point or conditions (mainly related to carrion feast relic) mastery might pass versatility as a better defensive star. Anyone know what are those conditions and what is needed for mastery to actually be viable again ? Is there any truth in that theory or did I just read that wrong ?

[Tojara]

Anybody not really excited for 69-72-75 as a blood DK? Most of our defensive traits are pretty bad point for point, and the ones that are 'good' generally aren't needed. Vampiric blood is a really good one, but we don't die with VB up as is, so making it more chunky really doesn't add much value (fully realize that it makes it easier to potentially solo soak some stuff come the next raid though). Carrion feast, defensively is probably our best relic for overall use.

Very loose math, but realistically, I don't think any of our DPS options for traits even come close to awarding us anywhere close to 1% damage. Marrowrend usually doesn't hit 10% of our damage, and heart strike and DnD are in similar categories. Blood plague (with the chest) on some bosses gets near 20% of our damage, but even still it's not like it would be a large impact.

Basically the final trait tier just feels pretty meh to me. Part of it's a blessing because we truly won't care about the final tier in most circumstances, and mostly go for iLvL. But it's kinda silly (mostly from an offensive standpoint), that our relics are mostly dog shit. I realize bears operate differently, and it's kinda annoying to forgo high iLvL relics for a particular relic (which is a problem in itself), but getting 4-5% damage from a relic with your BiS trait is absurd. I obviously don't want it to be that crazy, but it would be nice if our offensive traits were a bit stronger so that we might get 1-2% damage for a particular relic.

The second row might be good for us though as they are allowing them to scale with haste.

[Deleted]

10k Strength with 1 RPPM isn't anything to scoff at, but frankly I think you're jumping at replacing your DMC:I too soon. You can consider farming DHT to try to get a 915+ Writhing Heart, which is still very strong, or maybe try to get a Carapace from Goroth at a respectable item level, but I think DMC:I will perform just fine until 7.3.5.

Personally I prefer statstick.

Most defensive tank trinkets seem crappy.

I got a 945 shivermaw's jaw from the relinquished and another 940 stamina trinket from Karazhan but I still rather wear str+haste trinkets.

Nightmare Egg Shell and Chrono Shard still rock.

[leorana]

my first Antorus impression as BDK.

ran as 930 equipped on norm. 7/11 completed (raid disbanded because of the late hour).

I was thinking blood is doing pretty fine and didn't encounter any noticable difficulty, (at least on those 7 first bosses), but I was later doing another PuG which started on antorus high command.
the other tank was a guardian druid and this is where it got interesting....

the bear tank had no idea what to do in this fight and had no idea the boss cleaves and apply the debuff. two things happened:
1) he tanked the boss on top of the raid so I couldn't get rid of my stacks (and for some reason AMS doesn't prevent application of new stacks)
2) while I was tanking the boss (facing away from the raid) he came to my position so he could face the boss (/facepalm).

I died after 6 stacks. druid died after 10(!!!!).

when I told the healer/RL I'm amazed by amount of stacks and dmg the clueless druid was able to survive he said "yeah. guardians are god mode. blood dks are actually back to low tier".

made me wonder, how do we fare compare to other tanks in antorus?

[Deleted]

I had a really smooth run tanking normal Antorus.
Went 10/11 with a couple of wipes at Varimathras because we were trying to figure out tank positioning. We actually oneshot Agrammar with the pug (and almost all other bosses)...
We were 2 DKs tanking it and the healers were really happy about us not needing any healing (almost).

[figuratively]

I did 21% of healing on our heroic felhounds kill, next highest was our monk at 15%.

[Marrilaife]

Hard to say before mythic... My guild cleared up to Aggramar on hc and then we were out of raid time for the day, and it seems with mythic TOS gear the raid isn't very challenging. Most of our wipes were due to stupid mistakes and lack of proper tactics planning (for example having all 3 robots up on Kingaroth). Tbh I remember the same from EN and NH, hc wasn't really challenging for mythic guilds. TOV was challenging on hc and was deemed overtuned, got nerfed quickly after and bumped in ilvl. In TOS, only KJ seemed challenging - I remember messing up desolates on Avatar hc would not kill you on 3rd stack even during the first week, while going into mythic even boss like Demonic Inquisition would suddenly start hitting like a truck. So yeah, except KJ in TOS and whole TOV, heroic wasn't a good place to decree whether a class is gonna be good or bad.

And generally I have the expectation "top tier tank" is gonna be decided again by who brings the best gimnicks for specific boss on mythic. Or if any "solo tank cheese" strat emerges again (remember Guarm and Star Augur solo tanking strats). And even if what people like Sco say is true, that perma mitigation tanks are better than the "cd based" active mitigation ones, then it still means dk is gonna be better than dh, warrior and paladin. Dks have several defensive options in talents and legendaries and you never know when one of these can be useful again (like belt that didn't see much action since Gul'dan fel scythes I reckon), and it's always better to have the options rather than not.

Obviously bosses like Varimathras where you have to deal with regular soul sever like mechanic (can't death strike after hit cuz immune to heal) might be more annoying on a dk than on non heal reliant tank. But from my perspective healing just before his big hit worked just as fine. Still, I wouldn't make judgement based on hc, could be that mythic will prove completely different tank balance than everyone expects.

[Tehr]

30-man damage fucking SUCKS, and I hate it. It's not necessarily too much, and I was able to deal with it just fine, but just annoying how much this shit hurts.

Garothi Worldbreaker melee attacks (I was DC'd for first 60 seconds of the fight, so maybe a bit misleading)



Varimathras


We ran out of time after killing Varimathras, but damn these bosses hit hard.

Logs for posterity
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dqf72DprzQkLYxPG

[Deleted]

Yeah 30 man raiding is really annoying.

Did 10/11 heroic yesterday. I felt mostly fine as BDK, there are again Options to prevent debuffs with ams (Varimathras, Coven), and grip is amazing for aggramar. Massgrip is good for Portal Keeper.

What is somewhat stupid and may lead to Problems is Varimathras (besides the stupid movement as tank). Getting a big Magic attack in the face and being unable to heal for 7 seconds is weird. When Misery Drops DS only heals for the Minimum -_- we might Need Rune Tap here for the mythic Version

Tanking Aggramar was fun, i always like bosses where both tanks get hit like a truck constantly.

[Agilent]

Yeah 30 man raiding is really annoying.

Did 10/11 heroic yesterday. I felt mostly fine as BDK, there are again Options to prevent debuffs with ams (Varimathras, Coven), and grip is amazing for aggramar. Massgrip is good for Portal Keeper.

What is somewhat stupid and may lead to Problems is Varimathras (besides the stupid movement as tank). Getting a big Magic attack in the face and being unable to heal for 7 seconds is weird. When Misery Drops DS only heals for the Minimum -_- we might Need Rune Tap here for the mythic Version

Tanking Aggramar was fun, i always like bosses where both tanks get hit like a truck constantly.

On normal and heroic you dont have to move on Varimathras. Both tanks can be in front. Just have 1 angled slightly off the left foot and 1 off the right, inside his hitbox and you will be within 8 yards and wont get hit by the cleave. You can literally stand in the same place the entire fight.

[Tehr]

This is what he's talking about.

[Deleted]

I think Varimathras should be changed after this week so Alone in the Darkness no longer can hit tanks. It's such a silly ability, since it will only affect you in the first few seconds of the fight and if it does affect you it's an instant wipe.

If the adds on Mythic need to be picked and can be gripped I can see Dk's just being really good for that fight since you can just continue to stand still and no risk popping Alone in the Darkness.

Also another fight which completely counters DK's with a healing immunity. Goodie.

[Deleted]

This is what he's talking about.

Nice to know =) ty

[leorana]

relic question:

currently having a 905 iron relic with +% deathstrike healing, mastery+avoidance, and heart strike dmg . it's perfect for me if it wasn't for the low ilvl.

I have a 930 iron relic in the bank with: +dmg to DnD, either 500 haste and runspeed OR tormment of the weak (the stacking dot), and for 3 tier either +dmg to blood plague, or +1% to armor.

not sure if I should replace just for the sake of ilvl. my playstyle is more defensively than offensively but that being said tank dmg do matters.

advice needed.

[Deleted]

Also another fight which completely counters DK's with a healing immunity. Goodie.

After doing the fight on both my DK and my monk, I have to say it was a lot easier on my DK, which is about 15 ilvl behind (maybe its just 10 not sure). The debuff is absolutely no problem for a blood DK, and you can use Rune tap/VB, Rune Tap/AMS or Rune Tap/IBF on pretty much every single swipe, so you don't even drop low.

[Philondra]

relic question:

currently having a 905 iron relic with +% deathstrike healing, mastery+avoidance, and heart strike dmg . it's perfect for me if it wasn't for the low ilvl.

I have a 930 iron relic in the bank with: +dmg to DnD, either 500 haste and runspeed OR tormment of the weak (the stacking dot), and for 3 tier either +dmg to blood plague, or +1% to armor.

not sure if I should replace just for the sake of ilvl. my playstyle is more defensively than offensively but that being said tank dmg do matters.

advice needed.

The 930, and don't look back.

[Marrilaife]

currently having a 905 iron relic with +% deathstrike healing, mastery+avoidance, and heart strike dmg . it's perfect for me if it wasn't for the low ilvl.

I have a 930 iron relic in the bank with: +dmg to DnD, either 500 haste and runspeed OR tormment of the weak (the stacking dot), and for 3 tier either +dmg to blood plague, or +1% to armor.

not sure if I should replace just for the sake of ilvl. my playstyle is more defensively than offensively but that being said tank dmg do matters.

I know a guy who downgraded all his relics 30 ilvl just so he can get x3 torment the weak and use insignia of the grand army, most of the "damage proc" traits are of more value than switching heart strike damage to dnd or whatever other unimportant traits exist on the artifact baseline. Except monks and druids not sure if any other tank has a trait that would be so good you would want to stack it and never part with it.

Also relic ilvl translates into weapon ilvl which again translates into more stats, so it has some defensive value as you're getting more stamina and strength.

[figuratively]

I know a guy who downgraded all his relics 30 ilvl just so he can get x3 torment the weak and use insignia of the grand army, most of the "damage proc" traits are of more value than switching heart strike damage to dnd or whatever other unimportant traits exist on the artifact baseline. Except monks and druids not sure if any other tank has a trait that would be so good you would want to stack it and never part with it.

Also relic ilvl translates into weapon ilvl which again translates into more stats, so it has some defensive value as you're getting more stamina and strength.

Downgrade guy, is he posting higher numbers with that setup?

[Marrilaife]

Downgrade guy, is he posting higher numbers with that setup?

On hc Argus yday torment the weak did 14% of his damage and he got 97% log dps wise so I'd say it works for the numbers.

[Deleted]

Downgrade guy, is he posting higher numbers with that setup?

Yeah the Impact of the T2 Crucible traits in Terms of DPS is massive. I currently have 2x Shadowbind and 1x Torment, tested the ring in our normal clear. In some fights Shadowbind alone was doing more dmg than Blooddrinker.

For Varimathras Shadowbind and TtW was ~17% of my dmg.
For Imonar it was ~18%, with Shadowbind being #2 source of dmg (Needed way more marrowrend because BS dropped in intermissions, my bad)

For content where you cannot utilize AHR to the Maximum, the ring is a good Option.

So dropping ilvl for good t2 traits is a Thing if you want to max your dps.

Blood has now a working APL so if you want to be sure which relic is better for DPS you can sim it with raidbots. My gut Feeling tells me that 30 ilvl is too much, especialy if you dont use the ring.