Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[nathrizarri]

Thanks for the great read Trox! Very very enlightening.




There is no rune regen passive for Blood. I heard this is apparently intended due to Blood/Heart Strike giving extra runic power.

Personally I feel blood is gonna be super weird without a feedback loop rune regen mechanic.
Yet another issue on the Blood Strike vs Marrowrend topic.

If that is the case gutting the 10 bonus RP down to 5 for Blood Strike is double dipping on punishment. Can you give me a resource for not implementing Runic Longevity? Haven't heard a blue tweet, post about blood not having any rune regen talent, maybe they haven't implemented it yet.

Guys, he's using Plaguebearer and NP, idk why you're still having discussion with troll.

Some like to mess with talents and have fun too, guideboys wont know. I also go NP/conversion on Hellfire Assault for fun too, does that make me 2xtroll Mr,HeKnowsItAll?

[enak101]

@Nath

It doesn't matter if something like "marrowrend will make your absorbs last longer since you take less damage" is true, in a tank meta without burst damage. If the extra RP from blood strike adds up to enough HPS, you'll never/rarely use marrowrend. If marrowrends DR is better than the extra HPS, people will rarely use blood strike (of course damage vs survival is another thing, but in terms of mitigation i'm speaking).

Like he says in the article, not only will 1 tend to be better than the other at any point in time but even if theres a healthy mix of using the 2 optimally, they become close together in effectiveness meaning your mistakes matter less, reread his part about blood strike vs marrowrend.

[nathrizarri]

@Nath

It doesn't matter if something like "marrowrend will make your absorbs last longer since you take less damage" is true, in a tank meta without burst damage. If the extra RP from blood strike adds up to enough HPS, you'll never/rarely use marrowrend. If marrowrends DR is better than the extra HPS, people will rarely use blood strike (of course damage vs survival is another thing, but in terms of mitigation i'm speaking).

Like he says in the article, not only will 1 tend to be better than the other at any point in time but even if theres a healthy mix of using the 2 optimally, they become close together in effectiveness meaning your mistakes matter less, reread his part about blood strike vs marrowrend.

Death Strike Damage Taken heals the %40 dmg taken in last 6 sec

Lets say boss swing is 1.5 sec

2 swings.

10+10=20

1 marrowrend=2blood Strikes(runes)

1 blood strike=%12.5 more Death Strike compared to Marrowrend(5 bonus RP, 5/40=%12.5), 2xBS is %25 more DS

Marrowrend can last minimum 2 swings due to Boneshield's internal cd

8+8=16

DS heals for %40 of dmg taken in last 6 sec, meaning 0.4x20=8 healing(will be absorbs and crits too ofc)

%25 more DS means 8x0.25= 2 more mitigation bonus RP.

1 Marrowrend is 16/20 = prevented %20 damage in 2 gcd. 2 blood Strikes 18/20= prevented %10 damage(will be crits and absorbs too)

Lets say you have %100 absorb shield and %100 crit chance, you'll never have but this is the BEST case for Blood Strike, will be far lower than this.

2x2.5(might of mograine)+2(shields for base amount, not modified)=7 %35
Also I haven't included Artifact's Bone Shield Buff yet. Since we had %100 crit for the prev example lets stick with that.

5+5=10 for marrowrend crit block, %50 damage reduction in 2 seconds.

%20vs %10(0 crit, lets say you have %50 mastery, still way too large gap)

%50 vs %35(%100 crit+%100mastery)

--

Math.

Still no contest.








This is %100 effective healing Death Strikes we are talking about.

--

If you look at it from a High mitigation meta these numbers may not be great to you, do not let this illusion cloud your vision.

[Khiyone]

Blood Strike is 50% more Death Strikes than Marrowrend, not 25% (as 2 Blood Strikes give 75% of a DS, and one Marrowrend gives 50%). I didn't go over the math in detail, but Marrowrend is not worth casting in its current state, especially if you talent into Heart Strike (which you should). There is also the matter of a Blood Strike-centric rotation doing far more damage than a Marrowrend-centric one.

[Troxism]

You spout so many opinions and falsehoods it's ridiculous. I have no idea how you do a rotation without ever casting Blood Boil considering you get free procs of it, and I have no idea how you can think PL isn't ridiculously good, but I won't even bother arguing that point as it is off topic. I really don't care to hear any further 'justifications' of it either, as from what I have already seen of your reasoning for it, you have no grasp of logic so there is nothing of value to be gained by 'debating' with you about it (it's a very one sided debate atm, as you aren't actually debating).

On every other subject you spout random opinions with no arguments, something my article specifically avoids as much as possible. I'm not going to waste more time disproving your 'points' on it because your posts are very incoherent and difficult to read, and you have not made a single ACTUAL argument as you seem to not be able to understand what an argument is, or are just trying to irritate me or others. Either way I don't really care to hear it or waste more time breaking down exactly all the ways you are incorrect, as I would just mostly be repeating my own article since you appear to not have understood anything when you read it.

As for your 'math' on Marrowrend vs Blood Strike, again it is hard to follow because of how incoherent you are, but it is completely wrong.

If I cast 4 Blood Strikes, this costs 4 runes, and generates 60 RP. So I can DS 1.5 times.

If I cast 2 Marrowrends, this is 4 runes as well, and generates 40 RP. So I can DS 1 time.

Assume the artifact trait that gives marrowrend a 3rd charge, and the one that lets it crit.

Note that DS and marrowrend 'crit' for double atm on alpha, so crit affects both equally and does not matter. So I can safely ignore how much crit I have, as both Death Strike and Marrowrend are currently affected equally by it.

I assume 40% mastery, as I have 35% on alpha, and mastery is my LOWEST STAT on alpha, so 40% is pretty reasonable, esp considering getting higher ilvl gear.

If the boss swings for 100 damage every 1.5 seconds, let us take a period of 12 seconds, so he swings 8 times and deals 800 damage.

Two Marrowrends and 1 DS: I get 6 bone shield charges, so 6 of the 8 swings are reduced by 20%. I mitigate 20 damage per swing, for a total mitigation of 120 damage from the Bone Shield.

I then cast my Death Strike after 6 seconds (4 swings), so my DS window has 400 damage in it in total. I heal for 40% of this, which is 160. I then get 40% of that as a shield, so another 64 damage mitigated. NOTE I AM COMPLETELY IGNORING THE FACT THAT YOUR MARROWREND DR WOULD NERF YOUR DEATH STRIKE HEAL, so I am being VERY favorable to Marrowrend here.

This adds up to 120 + 160 + 64 damage mitigated from the 8 swings for 100 damage each via casting 2 marrowrends and 1 Death strike (4 runes total). This is 344 damage mitigated in total out of the 800 done.

Now compare that to 1.5 Death Strikes. Obviously half death strikes don't exist, but let us say we just get a half strength death strike. Stagger them out so there are no issues with overlap, and you get 160 + 64 for the first just as before, and another 80 + 32 for the 'half' a death strike. This is 336 damage mitigated, only 8 points less then the marrowrend example.

Now that might seem to say Marrowrend is better. But like I said, I ignored the damage reduction of Marrowrend reducing your Death Strike healing, so Marrowrend is actually worse. Also, the problem is that as your mastery goes up (and I used a pretty low value), the balance shifts in favour of Blood Strike, and either way Marrowrend is nowhere near 2.5 times better. The other problem is Heart Strike is the default talent choice as the others in that tier suck. So you ACTUALLY are generating 20 RP per 'Blood Strike', not 15 in practice. So this makes Heart Strike massively better then Marrowrend because it makes the Blood Strike example 33% stronger then before, which is WAY better then Marrowrend. Also, Versatility buffs Death Strike but not Marrowrend, and I assumed 0% vers. So the more Vers you have, again the more it shifts in favour of Blood Strike.

In addition to this, any tank with high end experience will tell you a burst heal is way better anyways. Doing Xhul'horac at ilvl 731 isn't high end, it's outgearing the boss by about 16 ilvls btw, so don't even bring that up please.

'But what about overhealing?'

Either it is a bursty tanking environment like right now, in which case overhealing basically doesn't matter (ask any high end tank)

Or it isn't, and because you won't get spiked anyways you can just sit there and wait for your HP to drop until you DS, preventing any risk of overhealing.

Either way, you are derailing the thread and have added absolutely nothing of value so far. You haven't made a single good argument (merely stating something that contradicts, is not an argument), haven't addressed any of mine, and seem to only be here to waste everyone's time and annoy us. I'm sure you will have some new post replying to this, either nitpicking something I said (I'm waiting for you to find the few places I don't actually back up my statements, and try to call me out on it, even though you never back anything up yourself), or 'proving me wrong' by spouting yet another opinion with zero backup, but I really don't care. Either contribute something actually interesting, or bow out gracefully please.

[aosmithx]

^fucking rekt

[Milocow]

put a CD on marrowrend, 4 sec or something, generate 4 charges (artifact traited)
while you have a bone shield up every blood/heart strike will generate an additional bone shield charge

also boneshield charges only block 20% of the damage from 1 instance per charge? i always thought that as long you have bone shield charges up you always take 20% less damage for the duration of the bone shield charges

[Nnogga]

Very nice document, agree on almost everything 100%. Sadly, this Blood DK revamp is a prime example of why change for change's sake is not a good thing.

[Ikrekot]

Trox great job. Everything you write is 100% correct.

Rotation on Legion for Blood DK is slow and boring. In normal dungeons in full green items rune regen is 8 sec +. Rotation looks like HS->HS->DS. Sometimes need to pop up cd on big pulls. DS can heal you up from Purgatory to 100% lol.

Downtime is terrible. Movement is terrible, like Trox write, most of my party members need to wait for me. Movement is one of most important job for tank. We lost 20% passive mov from DA and this is much on progress. Every boss on hfc is about move from point to point and faster you move it help everyone.

Sorry for my bad english

[Murderdoll]

Very nice document, agree on almost everything 100%. Sadly, this Blood DK revamp is a prime example of why change for change's sake is not a good thing.

Its not even a Blood DK rework. Its more the theory behind tanking in general which is frustrating because MOST tanks are in the same situation. If you like the tank role, youre kinda up the creek at the moment.

[Nnogga]

Its not even a Blood DK rework. Its more the theory behind tanking in general which is frustrating because MOST tanks are in the same situation. If you like the tank role, youre kinda up the creek at the moment.

Removing 15+ spells and remaking the complete talent tree qualifies as a rework for me. Oh well, abandoned ship long ago anyway but it was always nice to come back to my favorite spec in the game. (which it probably won't be anymore come legion if they keep these changes)

[nathrizarri]

You spout so many opinions and falsehoods it's ridiculous. I have no idea how you do a rotation without ever casting Blood Boil considering you get free procs of it, and I have no idea how you can think PL isn't ridiculously good, but I won't even bother arguing that point as it is off topic. I really don't care to hear any further 'justifications' of it either, as from what I have already seen of your reasoning for it, you have no grasp of logic so there is nothing of value to be gained by 'debating' with you about it (it's a very one sided debate atm, as you aren't actually debating).

On every other subject you spout random opinions with no arguments, something my article specifically avoids as much as possible. I'm not going to waste more time disproving your 'points' on it because your posts are very incoherent and difficult to read, and you have not made a single ACTUAL argument as you seem to not be able to understand what an argument is, or are just trying to irritate me or others. Either way I don't really care to hear it or waste more time breaking down exactly all the ways you are incorrect, as I would just mostly be repeating my own article since you appear to not have understood anything when you read it.

As for your 'math' on Marrowrend vs Blood Strike, again it is hard to follow because of how incoherent you are, but it is completely wrong.

If I cast 4 Blood Strikes, this costs 4 runes, and generates 60 RP. So I can DS 1.5 times.

If I cast 2 Marrowrends, this is 4 runes as well, and generates 40 RP. So I can DS 1 time.

Assume the artifact trait that gives marrowrend a 3rd charge, and the one that lets it crit.

Note that DS and marrowrend 'crit' for double atm on alpha, so crit affects both equally and does not matter. So I can safely ignore how much crit I have, as both Death Strike and Marrowrend are currently affected equally by it.

I assume 40% mastery, as I have 35% on alpha, and mastery is my LOWEST STAT on alpha, so 40% is pretty reasonable, esp considering getting higher ilvl gear.

If the boss swings for 100 damage every 1.5 seconds, let us take a period of 12 seconds, so he swings 8 times and deals 800 damage.

Two Marrowrends and 1 DS: I get 6 bone shield charges, so 6 of the 8 swings are reduced by 20%. I mitigate 20 damage per swing, for a total mitigation of 120 damage from the Bone Shield.

I then cast my Death Strike after 6 seconds (4 swings), so my DS window has 400 damage in it in total. I heal for 40% of this, which is 160. I then get 40% of that as a shield, so another 64 damage mitigated. NOTE I AM COMPLETELY IGNORING THE FACT THAT YOUR MARROWREND DR WOULD NERF YOUR DEATH STRIKE HEAL, so I am being VERY favorable to Marrowrend here.

This adds up to 120 + 160 + 64 damage mitigated from the 8 swings for 100 damage each via casting 2 marrowrends and 1 Death strike (4 runes total). This is 344 damage mitigated in total out of the 800 done.

Now compare that to 1.5 Death Strikes. Obviously half death strikes don't exist, but let us say we just get a half strength death strike. Stagger them out so there are no issues with overlap, and you get 160 + 64 for the first just as before, and another 80 + 32 for the 'half' a death strike. This is 336 damage mitigated, only 8 points less then the marrowrend example.

Now that might seem to say Marrowrend is better. But like I said, I ignored the damage reduction of Marrowrend reducing your Death Strike healing, so Marrowrend is actually worse. Also, the problem is that as your mastery goes up (and I used a pretty low value), the balance shifts in favour of Blood Strike, and either way Marrowrend is nowhere near 2.5 times better. The other problem is Heart Strike is the default talent choice as the others in that tier suck. So you ACTUALLY are generating 20 RP per 'Blood Strike', not 15 in practice. So this makes Heart Strike massively better then Marrowrend because it makes the Blood Strike example 33% stronger then before, which is WAY better then Marrowrend. Also, Versatility buffs Death Strike but not Marrowrend, and I assumed 0% vers. So the more Vers you have, again the more it shifts in favour of Blood Strike.

In addition to this, any tank with high end experience will tell you a burst heal is way better anyways. Doing Xhul'horac at ilvl 731 isn't high end, it's outgearing the boss by about 16 ilvls btw, so don't even bring that up please.

'But what about overhealing?'

Either it is a bursty tanking environment like right now, in which case overhealing basically doesn't matter (ask any high end tank)

Or it isn't, and because you won't get spiked anyways you can just sit there and wait for your HP to drop until you DS, preventing any risk of overhealing.

Either way, you are derailing the thread and have added absolutely nothing of value so far. You haven't made a single good argument (merely stating something that contradicts, is not an argument), haven't addressed any of mine, and seem to only be here to waste everyone's time and annoy us. I'm sure you will have some new post replying to this, either nitpicking something I said (I'm waiting for you to find the few places I don't actually back up my statements, and try to call me out on it, even though you never back anything up yourself), or 'proving me wrong' by spouting yet another opinion with zero backup, but I really don't care. Either contribute something actually interesting, or bow out gracefully please.

Why irritated in the first place? I assume you can only take critisim in YOUR standarts, which is not taking critisim. PL I made enough points, if you can not grasp what you read, you are biased. Simple. Don't get irritated by such stuff, I do not need to bring any counter arguments etc(which I did) here.

Your math is wrong.

If you eliminate crit, eliminate every your bonus mastery too.
Make small comparisons, not extended periods.
Compare the distinctive difference between abilities, not the overall numbers.

In that mindset(which is what is should be, sorry I am iritating you again, If you are kinda offended I can go on so you can be fully offended)



Take downtime and resource spent/generated per Gcd into account(you complain about it yet you are ignoring it on your calculations)
You must make individual comparison to come up with math. You will not be spamming BS in real life. Low burst means marathon, simply drawing a straight line and makr calculations based on it is self destructive in prolonged runs. So with each step calculated.
Be real, dont make scenrios where you spam 1 ability. You made the same on paper"correct" mistake and dismissed every possible real life evidence against it as "justification", yeah gj(!).

You look at total numbers but I look at bonuses provided. Exactly why your math is dead wrong. Take the minimun equal and make your calculations around that.

To be able to use everything you need 6 runes

Marrowrend takes 3 gcd, BS takes 6

4.5 sec vs 9

You can only insert 4 blood strikes in 6seconds. Which is 1 Ds period. 20RP bonus, a half Ds.

To be able to Block every swing at 6 sec you need 2 marrowrend with artifact, since this is what your calculation takes as foundation.

In 2 gcd you insert %20 reduction to all swings. You are left with 2 more runes, to make a fair comparison in real life, use those runes to Bs to enable marrowrends full potential. 10rp, %25 Ds.

400 total dmg taken in 6 seconds. Lowest possible mastery is %16afaik.

Marrowrend rotation blocked 80 and provided 40 heal, 16 absorb more.

BS rotation provided 80 healing 32 absorb more.

136vs112

Side notes, with only 2 marrowrend you get 80dmg prevented in 6 secs and leaves you the option to either use or spend those 2 runes, creates 3 sec of breathing room for you. This is a utility which any math cannot adress. You will be DnDing, doing other tasks etc, but lets forget it.

If we would penalize Mr with 3x usage we will get 9 bone shield, meaning that in a 12second, 8 swings we will be reducing All by %20 and add another bone shield for 9th attack, our runes will come up during that time and we gotta calculate them too. Rune regen favors Mr more bc lets say after 12 seconds you will be getting more runes active due to MR, further increasing the efficency of it.

Such tunnel, much vision. Keep defending plague leech. My first math I posted in prev post is the actual comparison you should be using. I just kept up with your "from all to core" mentality and posted this. You should still be calculating 1 marrowrend with 2 Bs, which is the mininum equal, and make comparisons based on them. This will help you create real scenarios. You can either cast 4Bs or 3 Mr, or you can cast 1mr and 3 Bs in 6 seconds, or even 2Mr 2Bs. This is the exact same thing you mention in tank /healer argument. Such stuff dont exist in a vaccuum. Dive into the smallest aspect and take everything into account. You lack vision atm.

Corrected the mistakes on first math, used non artifact boneshield, with it gap increases further

[Deleted]

Why irritated in the first place? I assume you can only take critisim in YOUR standarts, which is not taking critisim. PL I made enough points, if you can not grasp what you read, you are biased. Simple. Don't get irritated by such stuff, I do not need to bring any counter arguments etc(which I did) here.

Your math is wrong.

If you eliminate crit, eliminate every your bonus mastery too.
Make small comparisons, not extended periods.
Compare the distinctive difference between abilities, not the overall numbers.

In that mindset(which is what is should be, sorry I am iritating you again, If you are kinda offended I can go on so you can be fully offended)



Take downtime and resource spent/generated per Gcd into account(you complain about it yet you are ignoring it on your calculations)
You must make individual comparison to come up with math. You will not be spamming BS in real life. Low burst means marathon, simply drawing a straight line and makr calculations based on it is self destructive in prolonged runs. So with each step calculated.
Be real, dont make scenrios where you spam 1 ability. You made the same on paper"correct" mistake and dismissed every possible real life evidence against it as "justification", yeah gj(!).

You look at total numbers but I look at bonuses provided. Exactly why your math is dead wrong. Take the minimun equal and make your calculations around that.

To be able to use everything you need 6 runes

Marrowrend takes 3 gcd, BS takes 6

4.5 sec vs 9

You can only insert 4 blood strikes in 6seconds. Which is 1 Ds period. 20RP bonus, a half Ds.

To be able to Block every swing at 6 sec you need 2 marrowrend with artifact, since this is what your calculation takes as foundation.

In 2 gcd you insert %20 reduction to all swings. You are left with 2 more runes, to make a fair comparison in real life, use those runes to Bs to enable marrowrends full potential. 10rp, %25 Ds.

400 total dmg taken in 6 seconds. Lowest possible mastery is %16afaik.

Marrowrend rotation blocked 80 and provided 40 heal, 16 absorb more.

BS rotation provided 80 healing 32 absorb more.

136vs112

Side notes, with only 2 marrowrend you get 80dmg prevented in 6 secs and leaves you the option to either use or spend those 2 runes, creates 3 sec of breathing room for you. This is a utility which any math cannot adress. You will be DnDing, doing other tasks etc, but lets forget it.

If we would penalize Mr with 3x usage we will get 9 bone shield, meaning that in a 12second, 8 swings we will be reducing All by %20 and add another bone shield for 9th attack, our runes will come up during that time and we gotta calculate them too. Rune regen favors Mr more bc lets say after 12 seconds you will be getting more runes active due to MR, further increasing the efficency of it.

Such tunnel, much vision. Keep defending plague leech. My first math I posted in prev post is the actual comparison you should be using. I just kept up with your "from all to core" mentality and posted this. You should still be calculating 1 marrowrend with 2 Bs, which is the mininum equal, and make comparisons based on them. This will help you create real scenarios. You can either cast 4Bs or 3 Mr, or you can cast 1mr and 3 Bs in 6 seconds, or even 2Mr 2Bs. This is the exact same thing you mention in tank /healer argument. Such stuff dont exist in a vaccuum. Dive into the smallest aspect and take everything into account. You lack vision atm.

Corrected the mistakes on first math, used non artifact boneshield, with it gap increases further

Troll level over 9000. But do keep going with your "facts", they're extremely amusing to read.

On topic: While I haven't play blood on alpha as extensively as Trox and others has I'd like to believe I've played enough (6-7 hours) and I completely agree with every single point in your document. And the downtime is the thing that is actively killing the spec for me atm, coupled with the complete removal of any sort of mobility (cause who needs that durr). If things continiues as is a lot of blood tanks will probably be replaced with druids and paladins which is just fucking sad.

[Deleted]

nathrizarri, I'm not sure if you are a LFR hero, clinically retarded or both. You lack the simple, basic knowledge of actually producing a proper function for your math. Additionally, your math doesn't even matter. Nobody gives a fuck about 20% absorb from a melee hit. It's as redundant as it gets.
There is no reason to even go into detail with you, you will dismiss every fact anyway.

[OrcinusDrake]

put a CD on marrowrend, 4 sec or something, generate 4 charges (artifact traited)
while you have a bone shield up every blood/heart strike will generate an additional bone shield charge

That's what I was thinking. Copy the basic idea from live warrior then mix it up a bit to add flavour. (However fixing the idea is not really the point of this topic, the point is to make the problems apparent)

[Murderdoll]

Has to be troll. Surely someone at 740ilvl at 13/13M knows how valuable PL is.

But then again, there was that Chinese 13/13M Death Knight that didnt use Death Strike once during their kill so who knows.

[Deleted]

it is a troll, he uses PL. all his logs show him using PL

[Voidism]

How does the artifact weapon talents change the alpha gameplay?

I was hoping that, even though blood might start out very basic it would grow to become interesting with all talents.
I also hope that Blizzards posts turns out to be just a bunch of PR, like with the WoD changes. They said they'd reduce damage spikes for WoD too. They also said for WoD that people would be under 100 % health much more than in MoP. Well... eh...

Blood DK has always been my favourite spec ever since I leveled one, being inspired by Mionelol. Without M's inspiration I would've quit the game a long time ago.

[chaos61988]

How does the artifact weapon talents change the alpha gameplay?
mion
I was hoping that, even though blood might start out very basic it would grow to become interesting with all talents.
I also hope that Blizzards posts turns out to be just a bunch of PR, like with the WoD changes. They said they'd reduce damage spikes for WoD too. They also said for WoD that people would be at under 100 % health much more than in MoP. Well... eh...

Blood DK has always been my favourite spec ever since I leveled one, being inspired by Mionelol. Without M-inspiration I would've quit the game a long time ago.

mione has expressed their lack of interest in the direction of blood tanking on the official legion forums under this same (copy) thread. the way blizz is going they will turn off every vet DK tank there is. maybe they will get some new ones in the process, maybe they wont. who knows.

[Ikrekot]

Nathrizarri I suppose you wasn't on alpha yet, but you saying that Marrowrend > HS/BS is 100% incorrect. If we would like to use only Marrowrend we get 20% damage reduction and 20RP. After 17 second of fight we need to wait for single DS 16 or 8 seconds!!!!!! if we want to have 100% Bone Shield uptime. Without Exhume talent we can't even have 100% Bone Shield uptime, at 64th second of fight we will get hit without Bone Shield because it will fall down.

Using HS we can have always 1 DS every 3 or 6 seconds. Single DS can heal you up from Purgatory to 100% HP. I prefer to take more damage but always be at 100% hp without much help of healer than need healer to babysit me all the time and noone else can get heal or I will die.

- - - Updated - - -

Try to survive single trash pack in normal dungeon with using Marrowrend above HS. I was trying to Marrowrend + HS but it wasn't good enough I was dying like little shit. After using only HS I can tank 2-3 packs without help of healer.