Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Hanzzy]

@Hanzzy: class balance is not and never will be an opinion, no matter how hard you try to say so.

With the data we have available (which is very small sample size, compared to the data blizzard uses for their decisions) class balance for all forum postings is pure opinion. Are there amazing people who crunch numbers to give an result for X,Y,Z. They do, and I applauded their efforts however how many times/people play a class to that level of perfect? and even if they can, internet hickups, lag, video lag, someone else doing something slightly wrong all impact that.

So when it comes to what "people" post - it's really all opinion.

[Tojara]

Stoneskin still isn't better. Sorry. If it offered 10% stat and 5% armor I'd probably take it. An extra 5% constant stats isn't going to do anything, and while 5% armor is good, combined these effects still aren't as good.

Keep in mind while not a lot, fallen crusader procs a lot and the heal isn't that awful considering how often we actually have VB up (if you take red thirst, which if you don't you should probably uninstall). While technically the proc is random, the uptime is pretty high. Looking through my logs it basically averages right around 70%, give or take a couple percent. That effectively puts it at 10% passive strength, and in my opinion 10% strength and the heal outweighs 5% strength/stamina and 5% armor.

[Grishnok]

My BDK is currently sitting at 844 ilvl and 18 artifact level. I have cleared all the Mythic dungeons including the two in Sarumar. Blood is definitely not the best it has ever been but nothing has been too hard... in fact Id say it has all been pretty easy for me. Though I have been tanking as blood since wotlk... However there are still some glaring issues with the spec. I mean I have very little faith that blizzard will reverse the nerfs that made our mastery and blood shield the awful shit show that it is. Or completely redesign the terrible talents that we have in our tree. But to me the biggest glaring problem with the class is that we are THE ONLY TANK spec in the game that has no CD for straight damage mitigation baseline. In fact Im fairly sure most DPS specs and classes have some form of DR baseline.

It just boggles my fucking mind that this is a thing. A TANK spec with NO DR CD? We need Rune Tap baseline or need to have IBF returned to us.. even if it is the gutted 20% version that unholy and frost get right now. I simply cannot describe how fucking poorly designed this aspect is. And if Blizz or anyone else tries to argue: LOL BLOODSHIELD.. Ill stand on their neck. Bloodshield get gibbed from a mob fart.. even IF you are a moron and stack mastery.

Im concerned primarily because I know there are mechanics in boss fights IE: Cenarius this xpac that do increased damage to your entire raid if your tank takes a big hit. Blood DK's will stand there and be like... well get ready to eat shit fellow raid members.. because I can prevent approximately ZERO % of this.

What a joke.

[ShiyoKozuki]

No damage mitigation CD is really, really, really bad. DRW should be 40% DR and it'd be ok I guess.

Blood isn't prot warrior though, that's the problem with blood.

[Hanzzy]

My BDK is currently sitting at 844 ilvl and 18 artifact level. I have cleared all the Mythic dungeons including the two in Sarumar. Blood is definitely not the best it has ever been but nothing has been too hard... in fact Id say it has all been pretty easy for me. Though I have been tanking as blood since wotlk... However there are still some glaring issues with the spec. I mean I have very little faith that blizzard will reverse the nerfs that made our mastery and blood shield the awful shit show that it is. Or completely redesign the terrible talents that we have in our tree. But to me the biggest glaring problem with the class is that we are THE ONLY TANK spec in the game that has no CD for straight damage mitigation baseline. In fact Im fairly sure most DPS specs and classes have some form of DR baseline.

It just boggles my fucking mind that this is a thing. A TANK spec with NO DR CD? We need Rune Tap baseline or need to have IBF returned to us.. even if it is the gutted 20% version that unholy and frost get right now. I simply cannot describe how fucking poorly designed this aspect is. And if Blizz or anyone else tries to argue: LOL BLOODSHIELD.. Ill stand on their neck. Bloodshield get gibbed from a mob fart.. even IF you are a moron and stack mastery.

Im concerned primarily because I know there are mechanics in boss fights IE: Cenarius this xpac that do increased damage to your entire raid if your tank takes a big hit. Blood DK's will stand there and be like... well get ready to eat shit fellow raid members.. because I can prevent approximately ZERO % of this.

What a joke.

We don't need the DR. That's the entire point of how the class plays. Only sub-par tanks need some 3minute DR CD to stay alive. I'm happy to not have it.

[Deleted]

Last night we went to AoVH Mythic,i am about ilvl 840 (20% haste) and i have to say, meeting Blood-Princes Thal'ena was not a pleasant experience. She hits hard and she hits fast. Shes eating my boneshield stacks nearly faster than i can apply them via marrowrend. This leaves me nearly without any runes left for heartstrike to generate runic power for death strikes.

The only tool you have left is your hope, the healer will be able to hold up the exaggregate stress you put on him by not having any form of mitigation.

This fight is a prime example of our poorly designed spec and how it will fuck us over from time to time on some encounters. As it stands i quite have no hope left for my spec and am about to cut my losses and level an prot warrior.

[Nnyco]

We don't need the DR. That's the entire point of how the class plays. Only sub-par tanks need some 3minute DR CD to stay alive. I'm happy to not have it.

indeed all these "sub-par tanks" which are however mysteriously better than us atm, blood needs a dr button back or atleast a buff to mastery, make it proc with all healing or just increase the amount you get

consumption should also give bones the very least, right now it feels very underwhelmin outside of aoe

[ShiyoKozuki]

We don't need the DR. That's the entire point of how the class plays. Only sub-par tanks need some 3minute DR CD to stay alive. I'm happy to not have it.

No, not having a single damage reduction cooldown as a tank is not acceptable.

- - - Updated - - -

Last night we went to AoVH Mythic,i am about ilvl 840 (20% haste) and i have to say, meeting Blood-Princes Thal'ena was not a pleasant experience. She hits hard and she hits fast. Shes eating my boneshield stacks nearly faster than i can apply them via marrowrend. This leaves me nearly without any runes left for heartstrike to generate runic power for death strikes.

The only tool you have left is your hope, the healer will be able to hold up the exaggregate stress you put on him by not having any form of mitigation.

This fight is a prime example of our poorly designed spec and how it will fuck us over from time to time on some encounters. As it stands i quite have no hope left for my spec and am about to cut my losses and level an prot warrior.

I don't like how bone shield works at all. It isn't fun or interesting to keep up and is just a nuisance. Passive AOE/dots shouldn't remove stacks.

[Grishnok]

As of right now as long as Boneshield is up I have 40% haste and 30% crit. There are obviously flaws in our design as every single ability we can get that is a straight DR cd is a talent that if taken severely gimps your toon. The only exception being if you are the luckiest fucker in the universe and you happen to get the Legendary belt then you can afford to drop red thirst for Tombstone. Its pathetic. IBF or RuneTap should be baseline. And Mastery/Bloodshield needs a significant buff. Our healing is fine but our blood shields are a goddamn joke atm. Mobs are hitting for well over 100k a swing and our blood shields are like 40k if we go crit/haste which practically every DK with a brain will go.

If you take Blood Mirror for the 20% DR you lose Purgatory.. If you take Rune Tap you lose Foul Bulwark. If you take Tombstone you lose red thirst. None of those tradeoffs are worth it with the exception of MAYBE Purgatory if you are on farm content.

Even DPS classes right now have baseline DR CDs... yet only ONE tank class does not? I just don't have words. Makes no sense to me at all.

[Deleted]

No, not having a single damage reduction cooldown as a tank is not acceptable.

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I don't like how bone shield works at all. It isn't fun or interesting to keep up and is just a nuisance. Passive AOE/dots shouldn't remove stacks.

Yes, but that is not enough, even without aoe/dots there are fast hitting encounters that force you to spam marrowrend. And by doing so, even as it is the most optimal way to play, it feels like you are underperforming because you are constantly runic power starved. And even if you are pacient enough and bank enough rp for an ds, it heals/shields in homeopathic doses...

There is a reason the blood dk comunity is in despair. There are nearly no resources out there regarding blood dks, there is no one left even for an BiS list. Magdalena threw his towl (read his farewell post), Troxism is in the seventh circle of frustration (read his guide) and also quit this game. This spec is a train wreck, it needs an complete overhaul. And everybody in his right mind knows this wont happen.

I played my blood dk since wotlk and withstand all struggles up to now, but even i have to accept that it is done now and its time to move on. There is only/at least unholy left for my dk (and it looks great so far).

[Kapaya]

Not sure if tooltip error but DMC Immortality card got buffed, armor bonus got doubled. Anyone who got a trinket list somewhere?

Wait you're being serious? You actually use stoneskin? Lol

FC is pretty shit now. It has like a 20% uptime compared to the 70% it used to have. Might wanna check your actual uptime on it before laughing at others.

[Deleted]

Not sure if tooltip error but DMC Immortality card got buffed, armor bonus got doubled. Anyone who got a trinket list somewhere?



FC is pretty shit now. It has like a 20% uptime compared to the 70% it used to have. Might wanna check your actual uptime on it before laughing at others.

Don't know what you are talking about, the FC uptime is unchanged. Well, one could argue that with our new legion rotation (aka placing DnD and running around it in circles) it may be 20%. Ya sure, you're right....

[Tehr]

FC is pretty shit now. It has like a 20% uptime compared to the 70% it used to have. Might wanna check your actual uptime on it before laughing at others.

See this post below:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...et=4&options=8

Those were my Mythics last week (doesn't count Vault of the Wardens, we had to do that on another day because of time constraints).

Across every single pull, JUST the heal from Fallen Crusader averaged 8.83% of my total healing. It ticked 512 times, and I cast Death Strike 867 times, for an average of 203k and 509k heals, respectively.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...t=4&options=16

That is the same thing except it shows my buffs. I had a 71% uptime on the 15% strength buff, which is nothing to scoff at. Of course, this data is actually pretty misleading because it counts downtime for breaks and whatnot. If you assume that I kept up Bone Shield 100% of the time during actual combat (which is the case except for a few rare exceptions), then I actually had a 95% uptime. Even if you give yourself some wiggle room and cut it 5%, that's still 90% uptime.

While I think Stoneskin Gargoyle is definitely not as terrible as it used to be (lol 2% armor and stamina iirc), and the secondary stats DOES improve your offensive capabilities by a slim margin, I think that Fallen Crusader is without a doubt superior in every way.

Also, regarding the bit about 90-95% uptime, the time between pulls allows the PPM to reset, which means it's up nearly constantly for every trash pull.

Here are my logs from this week's Mythics (minus Arcway and Court of Stars):

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...29556&source=1

Unless there has been some stealth nerf sometime Friday, then Fallen Crusader remains exactly the same.

[Positions]

There is a reason the blood dk comunity is in despair. There are nearly no resources out there regarding blood dks, there is no one left even for an BiS list. Magdalena threw his towl (read his farewell post), Troxism is in the seventh circle of frustration (read his guide) and also quit this game. This spec is a train wreck, it needs an complete overhaul. And everybody in his right mind knows this wont happen.

I also threw in the towel on blood. The only redeeming quality it ha on beta was it did really good damage. Now it's pretty shit so in gonna stick with u holy this xpac.

[Kapaya]

Strange, I'll double check since me and two other friends were barely getting over 20% uptime according to skada. Gonna uploada logg and check it out, maybe Skada is being shit.

[Highwhale]

Stoneskin still isn't better. Sorry. If it offered 10% stat and 5% armor I'd probably take it. An extra 5% constant stats isn't going to do anything, and while 5% armor is good, combined these effects still aren't as good.

It gives +5% str and +5% stam. Still having +% to stamina is better than just +% for str.

[ShiyoKozuki]

It gives +5% str and +5% stam. Still having +% to stamina is better than just +% for str.

Stamina is the worst stat for tanking.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure if tooltip error but DMC Immortality card got buffed, armor bonus got doubled. Anyone who got a trinket list somewhere?

No reason to use that over a DPS trinket. Tank trinkets are useless.

[Siyalib]

No reason to use that over a DPS trinket. Tank trinkets are useless.

it averages about 5-6% physical damage reduction on that DMC trinket? Is that really all that useless in addition to the strength?

[astleyt07]

Last night we went to AoVH Mythic,i am about ilvl 840 (20% haste) and i have to say, meeting Blood-Princes Thal'ena was not a pleasant experience. She hits hard and she hits fast. Shes eating my boneshield stacks nearly faster than i can apply them via marrowrend. This leaves me nearly without any runes left for heartstrike to generate runic power for death strikes.

The only tool you have left is your hope, the healer will be able to hold up the exaggregate stress you put on him by not having any form of mitigation.

This fight is a prime example of our poorly designed spec and how it will fuck us over from time to time on some encounters. As it stands i quite have no hope left for my spec and am about to cut my losses and level an prot warrior.

well i was ilvl 826 and tanked that fight without any problems so have no idea what u are on about

[Deleted]

Mythic+ will show how well off the DK is. Regular mythics were "over" too quickly to get a proper feeling. I'm at 848 right now and even mythic dungeons are already trivial to tank. It's impossible to tell if there is anything missing from the DK if there's nothing to actually test our limits.