Mythic Mannoroth Doomlord Dispel Help Requested

[Broccoliz]

Logs from last night:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/naqC67KYyBV8AmDf

We keep losing 1-2 people to silly things early on (felseeker, wrath suiciding, etc) which makes cleanly transitioning to the last phase very difficult. The wombo combo right before the last phase (of every mechanic happening at once) is also wrecking us... I'm considering just having the entire raid pop a shieldtronic potion before the wombo combo happens and make sure everyone saves personal CDs for that, plus the Devo, AMZ, AG, blah blah blah we have rolling at that time.

Any other thoughts, besides individuals stepping up their game?

In the last phase we also didn't have enough melee alive so kept having 2-3 healers being picked with wrath instead, which was super annoying....

[Teomas]

Logs from last night:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/naqC67KYyBV8AmDf

We keep losing 1-2 people to silly things early on (felseeker, wrath suiciding, etc) which makes cleanly transitioning to the last phase very difficult. The wombo combo right before the last phase (of every mechanic happening at once) is also wrecking us... I'm considering just having the entire raid pop a shieldtronic potion before the wombo combo happens and make sure everyone saves personal CDs for that, plus the Devo, AMZ, AG, blah blah blah we have rolling at that time.

Any other thoughts, besides individuals stepping up their game?

In the last phase we also didn't have enough melee alive so kept having 2-3 healers being picked with wrath instead, which was super annoying....

You are losing waaaaay too many people to Shadowforce Pushback/Felseeker knock. There is a minimum of 1 Person falling of the platform in almost every Pull. That's something you should fix first before trying to fix anything else. People should never fall off the platform.

[Broccoliz]

You are losing waaaaay too many people to Shadowforce Pushback/Felseeker knock. There is a minimum of 1 Person falling of the platform in almost every Pull. That's something you should fix first before trying to fix anything else. People should never fall off the platform.

Super dumb question but do you have any suggestions for how to improve these things? We use purple pillar for shadow force in p2 which has a finicy way you have to be angled. Most have figured it out but I'll look for a video guide.
Fel seeker we stack on one point with baiters who can blink behind the griup. Honestly not sure how people are failing this or what to tell them. Possibly a fel seeker weak aura to honk at them...

[Teomas]

Super dumb question but do you have any suggestions for how to improve these things? We use purple pillar for shadow force in p2 which has a finicy way you have to be angled. Most have figured it out but I'll look for a video guide.
Fel seeker we stack on one point with baiters who can blink behind the griup. Honestly not sure how people are failing this or what to tell them. Possibly a fel seeker weak aura to honk at them...

My guild kinda used the fatboss positioning except we stacked all Guldans to the red pillar so they get pushed that way with shadowforce. Boss was tanked in the middle and the normal group stacked behind the boss so they get pushed to the purple pillar with shadowforce. Not exactly the best tactic but it worked. We got every range to spread at the edge when felseeker is about to be cast. Move back to the boss at about 0,5 sec to felseeker so the ppl targeted by it get knocked back to the boss and dont fall of. Thats how we did it. I hope its understandable

[Broccoliz]

Yeah, that's essentially exactly what we are doing. Just going to have to have people stop derping I guess...

[Dracodraco]

Yeah, that's essentially exactly what we are doing. Just going to have to have people stop derping I guess...

We tank boss against the purple pillar and handle the shadowforces in P2 like this:
https://youtu.be/ESarIv1Cm_k?t=6m39s

Fairly easy, for those of your players that need a visual cue, you can put a marker on the edge between the flat area and the grilled area where there's 2x beams in this picture:
https://gyazo.com/8b1d93dbf6c46dab823394b34f3d7389
If they get pushed straight over that mark and have their lines go through it, it means there's no way they'll fall off, the pillar will stop them (you can see in the picture one guy was a bit off, and he was close to getting knocked off).

[Deleted]

Some people are saying dispel instantly but we have always dispelled at 18 seconds which allows a GCD for priest shield to ensure no unexpected deaths. 20-16 seconds is the timeframe that has never given us issues.

[Broccoliz]

I won't be a huge help but we three heal for the extra dps.

P2 first doomlord we dispel immediately and ring + spirit eruption kills it
second doomlord we hold until after second felseeker and dispel, usually right before it is going to expire, we do box strat so we use the volley to break dooms. we interrupt the first volley if we aren't going to push p3 before the fear.
We don't get a third in p2

P3 we get wrath, shadowforce and fear, then dispel the mark when felseeker hits. We again interrupt the first volley to avoid having the volley damage + fear and shadowforce. At this point we push to P4. lust, ring, cd, pot, etc... survive the first ESF cast and win.

We were having some of the same problems you were. When we went to three heals and stopped trying to hold dps we immediately made a ton of progress and got a kill within 20 attempts.

Solid point, I think we are going to try dropping to 3 heals this week and do exactly that. For the 1st and 3rd doomlords, is your goal to use the ring to explode him before mark of doom goes out, or is that unrealistic? When you use the ring to explode on the doomlord, do you have it so the explosion is JUST on the doomlord, or split between him and boss? And just to clarify, you only get THREE doomlords per fight, correct? Would that mean the goal is to only have 1 set of mark of dooms - from the 2nd doomlord you don't have ring on? Just figuring out what our goals should be here. Thank you for the tip!

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We tank boss against the purple pillar and handle the shadowforces in P2 like this:
https://youtu.be/ESarIv1Cm_k?t=6m39s

Fairly easy, for those of your players that need a visual cue, you can put a marker on the edge between the flat area and the grilled area where there's 2x beams in this picture:
https://gyazo.com/8b1d93dbf6c46dab823394b34f3d7389
If they get pushed straight over that mark and have their lines go through it, it means there's no way they'll fall off, the pillar will stop them (you can see in the picture one guy was a bit off, and he was close to getting knocked off).

This is great, thank you! We had been doing purple pillar the entire 2nd phase, which was making very awkward camera angles and spreading out for imps led to people getting pushed off by shadowforce OR stacking too tightly and dying from imp explosions, just because the camera angle is unforgiving. Moving over to use the red pilar for second shadowforce should stop a lot of these problems. Is it easy to mess up the red pillar, I'm a bit worried our raiders won't be able to hit the spot.... but here's hoping!

[Adramelch]

Solid point, I think we are going to try dropping to 3 heals this week and do exactly that. For the 1st and 3rd doomlords, is your goal to use the ring to explode him before mark of doom goes out, or is that unrealistic? When you use the ring to explode on the doomlord, do you have it so the explosion is JUST on the doomlord, or split between him and boss? And just to clarify, you only get THREE doomlords per fight, correct? Would that mean the goal is to only have 1 set of mark of dooms - from the 2nd doomlord you don't have ring on? Just figuring out what our goals should be here. Thank you for the tip!

We have the explosion split between the two. Doom lords have 15.5m health so you should have more than enough DPS with the ring to kill them before the Marks go out. Doom lord 1 is pretty straight forward as you just use the ring on pull and he should have already spawned a few seconds before it explodes. For Doom lord 3, you need to find the correct timing. You can also control it, through dispelling the curse at an appropriate time. There is, however, a sweet spot when you can have the ring up during the preceding imps, masturbate DPS on them and have a rather big explosion go off on the Doom lord.

[Broccoliz]

We have the explosion split between the two. Doom lords have 15.5m health so you should have more than enough DPS with the ring to kill them before the Marks go out. Doom lord 1 is pretty straight forward as you just use the ring on pull and he should have already spawned a few seconds before it explodes. For Doom lord 3, you need to find the correct timing. You can also control it, through dispelling the curse at an appropriate time. There is, however, a sweet spot when you can have the ring up during the preceding imps, masturbate DPS on them and have a rather big explosion go off on the Doom lord.

When you say on pull, do you mean when Manno becomes engageable, or the summoner you are burning? Sorry for the dumb question

For the 3rd, I think you would want to pop the ring what, 10 seconds before Curse goes out? That gives 1-2 seconds to dispel and 3 seconds to move to it to explode?

[Adramelch]

When you say on pull, do you mean when Manno becomes engageable, or the summoner you are burning? Sorry for the dumb question

For the 3rd, I think you would want to pop the ring what, 10 seconds before Curse goes out? That gives 1-2 seconds to dispel and 3 seconds to move to it to explode?

I mean when you engage Mannoroth. As for the 3rd, I would say that you have to give it a bit more leeway. The Mark of Doom (from memory, I might be wrong) cast starts at around 7-8 seconds from the moment the Doom lord spawns, so I'd say use the ring at around 5-7 seconds at the curse timer. If you see that, for whatever, reason, you used the ring too late, you can delay dispelling a couple of seconds to make it work. But, in general, it'll only take a couple of tries before you find the sweet spot.

From a swift look at our logs (granted we're about 4 ilvls higher than you on average) we do around 15-18m damage on the 2nd ring, split between Manno and Doom Lord.

[Broccoliz]

Thank you so much Adramelch, I really appreciate your help. I am the dispeller and I have a weak aura to track the DPS ring, so I will be sure to dispel the curse accordingly (sounds like I should be dispelling when DPS ring is going to explode in 5-7 seconds). Here's hoping we have the DPS to make this work

[nato2k]

Solid point, I think we are going to try dropping to 3 heals this week and do exactly that. For the 1st and 3rd doomlords, is your goal to use the ring to explode him before mark of doom goes out, or is that unrealistic? When you use the ring to explode on the doomlord, do you have it so the explosion is JUST on the doomlord, or split between him and boss? And just to clarify, you only get THREE doomlords per fight, correct? Would that mean the goal is to only have 1 set of mark of dooms - from the 2nd doomlord you don't have ring on? Just figuring out what our goals should be here. Thank you for the tip!

- - - Updated - - -

We do split the ring, the idea is definitely to kill him before you get the doom cast on the first one. We actually don't have ring for the second and third doomlords, so we just hard switch and kill it after the volley breaks the dooms. We ring on cooldown for the second ring which is right when you push P3. By not splitting it you push the boss faster for that second ring.

[Dracodraco]

This is great, thank you! We had been doing purple pillar the entire 2nd phase, which was making very awkward camera angles and spreading out for imps led to people getting pushed off by shadowforce OR stacking too tightly and dying from imp explosions, just because the camera angle is unforgiving. Moving over to use the red pilar for second shadowforce should stop a lot of these problems. Is it easy to mess up the red pillar, I'm a bit worried our raiders won't be able to hit the spot.... but here's hoping!

I mean, it's not been a big issue for us; As said, if your raiders need visual cues, put up the mark where I said. If your raiders gets shadowforce, make sure they aim for that mark, and they should be golden. I progressed this boss as a tank, and I figured out that I could use that part of the platform as a visual indicator first time I did the boss as a DPS, and it's worked 100% fine for me since then, but we only get 2 shadowforces per kill, so I can't say I've had a ton of practice with it (maybe 2-3 times?).

Your biggest issue will be that healers won't be in range of the shadowforce targets, which means that they either need to be quick to HoT/Shield them to make sure they don't get KO'd (a full shadowforce *should* just about kill you with zero healing/reductions from full hp), or people need to blow defensives when they get shadowforced. It does entirely remove the issues you were referring to, though.
Reason we did it like this rather than up against purple pillar also is that we use the Doom Spike to remove the debuffs; having people rush in right after doom spike+marks go off to try and get pushed against purple just seemed very hectic comparable.

[nato2k]

Personally I find it much easier to use the pillar. In P3 we do it like this...

Ring... Wraths go out, wrath targets go to their assigned spots, rest of the raid goes in front of Mannoroth with our back to the pillar. Shadowforce goes out and we are pushed against the wall, imps come out, loose spread aoe down, then gaze hits, they don't go anywhere because of the pillar, whole raid soaks then moves to his side.

At this point wrath is done all stack on his side. Felseeker, entire raid moves back to the front of Mannoroth backs to the pillar, doom lord comes out, kill Doomlord but not before his volley takes out dooms. Shadowforce, imps, gaze, move back to his side. At this point you should have him pushed to P4.

P4, everyone should be on his side, loose spread. Lust once there is ~15 sec left on ring cd but not if lust is going to bleed into ESF. If lust is going to bleed into ESF, save it for after ESF.

Gaze comes out, you soak... everyone goes and stands in Mannoroth's butthole, healing cds, speed cds, etc survive ESF go to his other side loose spread, imps then gaze then back to his butthole. He should be dead around the time he finishes with the second ESF.

Having most of the raid alive after the first ESF is the key to winning IMO. Important that everyone uses their defensives. Also, we do not have wrath positions for this, we just have melee wrath targets keep moving so they are not hitting one person. The ranged wrath targets just say at range and never clear their debuff.

If you have your brezes you can always sacrifice melee wrath targets too. Just have them stand on top of each other then brez. We had mixed results with this and I am not a huge fan of that strat.

[Dracodraco]

Personally I find it much easier to use the pillar. In P3 we do it like this...

Ring... Wraths go out, wrath targets go to their assigned spots, rest of the raid goes in front of Mannoroth with our back to the pillar. Shadowforce goes out and we are pushed against the wall, imps come out, loose spread aoe down, then gaze hits, they don't go anywhere because of the pillar, whole raid soaks then moves to his side.

At this point wrath is done all stack on his side. Felseeker, entire raid moves back to the front of Mannoroth backs to the pillar, doom lord comes out, kill Doomlord but not before his volley takes out dooms. Shadowforce, imps, gaze, move back to his side. At this point you should have him pushed to P4.

P4, everyone should be on his side, loose spread. Lust once there is ~15 sec left on ring cd but not if lust is going to bleed into ESF. If lust is going to bleed into ESF, save it for after ESF.

Gaze comes out, you soak... everyone goes and stands in Mannoroth's butthole, healing cds, speed cds, etc survive ESF go to his other side loose spread, imps then gaze. He should be dead around the time he finishes with the second ESF.

I don't think anyone is disputing using the pillar for the initial entry to P3 (or 2, as it's more commonly known, because people forget the 15 seconds of summoner-RP is actually a phase). It's the second/third shadowforce of the fight that gets hectic/annoying with the doomlord in play if you choose to use doom spikes to remove the marks, which most guilds do nowadays because it essentially removes 30% of the damage from the fight (150k hit on the 3x players with marks vs 200K hit on the entire raid). You use volleys, which gives you more wiggle room, but is harder on the healers. It's a "pick your poison"-scenario.

[nato2k]

Logs from last night:

We keep losing 1-2 people to silly things early on (felseeker, wrath suiciding, etc) which makes cleanly transitioning to the last phase very difficult. The wombo combo right before the last phase (of every mechanic happening at once) is also wrecking us... I'm considering just having the entire raid pop a shieldtronic potion before the wombo combo happens and make sure everyone saves personal CDs for that, plus the Devo, AMZ, AG, blah blah blah we have rolling at that time.

Any other thoughts, besides individuals stepping up their game?

In the last phase we also didn't have enough melee alive so kept having 2-3 healers being picked with wrath instead, which was super annoying....

If we lose anyone off the platform in P2 or P3 we just wipe it up and pull again. No point in keeping going down people like that, it makes it every hard to succeed because you will be behind on p3 and p4 transitions. You are just delaying the inevitable.

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I don't think anyone is disputing using the pillar for the initial entry to P3 (or 2, as it's more commonly known, because people forget the 15 seconds of summoner-RP is actually a phase). It's the second/third shadowforce of the fight that gets hectic/annoying with the doomlord in play if you choose to use doom spikes to remove the marks, which most guilds do nowadays because it essentially removes 30% of the damage from the fight (150k hit on the 3x players with marks vs 200K hit on the entire raid). You use volleys, which gives you more wiggle room, but is harder on the healers. It's a "pick your poison"-scenario.

Agree it is tricky. That is why we usually interrupt the first volley after doom and let the second one go out, because the first one usually has a gaze at the same time.

Never knew about using doomspike, that is interesting. Just have someone take one stack then blow up the doom targets?

[Dracodraco]

Agree it is tricky. That is why we usually interrupt the first volley after doom and let the second one go out, because the first one usually has a gaze at the same time.

Never knew about using doomspike, that is interesting. Just have someone take one stack then blow up the doom targets?

Tank #1 picks up doomlord and tanks it untill it casts mark, then for 1 additional spike (usually applies 3-4). Tank 2 taunts off, and lets doomspike fall off of tank 1, and done.

[Broccoliz]

Updated Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...3BRg9#fight=25

Using the new strat of swapping to red pillar after first shadowforce and of destroying Doomlord 1 and 3 before marks, it worked very well. More consistent pulls, though still having some silly struggles. I think another night on Sunday and we could be getting closer to a kill.

Last phase with 3 healers was a bit rough, but I'm hoping we'll manage. If you see anything from logs, please point out and let me know!

[Teomas]

Don't know if you are aware of it. Your Tanks need to be careful that they dont soak any stacks of wrath in the last Phase. Wrath stacks increase the damage they take from overflowing fel energy (when they are near to Guldan when they get knocked back to the pillar).