why dont people focus rets?

[minteK917]

survival hunters and arcane mages were much mure broken in pre wotlk cause you got 2 shot and i mean it, this was the most unbalanced time i ever remembered in wow. way more than even s5 with pala and dk dominance, even they could not 2 shot on a regular basis with just 1-2 buttons from range.

Nah you clearly dont remember that first 2 weeks of this patch before the hot fix. Bubble used to reduce attack speed by 50%, not damage. So ret could pop wings, bubble and 2 shot full s4 gladiators of other classes with quest item, while being invincible. Arcane mage was break fast for ret in that 2 week, everyone was. Then bubble was hot fixed to reduce damage by 50%, then divine storm became physical instead of holy damage. There was never any class outside of a bug that ever got close to how ret was for 2 weeks. I know i had a ret level up just for that because of the beta. Those 2 week i was wearing gear from netherstorm quests and 2 shotting everything in what ever gear they could be during my invincibility. The only way arcane mage could even be in the same league would be making them able to cast spells during iceblock.

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Are you really trying to say rets werent viable glads til s5? ret was significantly more successful than moonkins in s3 and s4 by quite a bit.
.

To be fair Ret S3/S4 was ok, more successful then moonkin, not really. Moonkin had its use before it was nerfed, Healkin used to be the master of 2s. With warriors, rogue, drain locks. When moonkin form gave mana. DPS moonkin was useless. Ret was literally only good for one thing during TBC 2 final season (useless in s1/s2). Cleave with arm warrior and windfury totem. Anything else ret was useless at. Ret couldnt even duel properly at that time, even seal could be dispelled and you really had limited mana to reapply it mabye 12 times lol, if a priest was in the area well, you stopped being usefull in mabye 3 seconds. The only reason Ret saw plays in 3s, is pretty much a single comp for shit reasons lol.

Ret had freedom to give the warrior.

Ret was the other 2 hander spec gaining the most burst out of windfury totem and bloodlust.

On its own ret was garbage tier. If DK had existed during TBC, the only reason for ret to be in this comp would vanish. The fact that Windfury gave it burst. Hell if arm warriors could have freed another player from root and snare, they would have easily taken ret spot on that team and probably create the most powerful comp of those seasons haha. But since it was a ret, it was just a mid range comp.

[LiiLoSNK]

I already mentioned restokin and explained the mana benefits (having hit glad s3/s4 with multiple druids while playing restokin). Also that it was only commonly viable in 2s. It's not a real moonkin spec. It's a resto focused with points into balance for mana, moonkin form (for armor), and insect swarm.

Calling it moonkin spec is like calling sl/sl the same thing as affliction.

[minteK917]

I already mentioned restokin and explained the mana benefits (having hit glad s3/s4 with multiple druids while playing restokin). Also that it was only commonly viable in 2s. It's not a real moonkin spec. It's a resto focused with points into balance for mana, moonkin form (for armor), and insect swarm.

Calling it moonkin spec is like calling sl/sl the same thing as affliction.

Its about as shaky as saying ret was in a good spot thought. It was in a single spot, for two reasons. It used a 2 hander and had blessing of freedom. Remove one of these and ret would have had no spot in any comp, instead of that single one. Im not sure id say it was great. You pretty much couldnt even do your damage, but auto attack in fear of not having your mana for freedom and cleanse. Everytime you judged you had to reapply your seal and it could also just be dispelled. So you just ran around with the arm warrior in an attempt to auto attack what ever he was attacking and get wind fury procs during blood lust. Like a mosquitos biting who ever the arm warrior was wrecking up.

[LiiLoSNK]

I didn't say it was great. I said it was better in 3s than moonkins after he said it wasn't. Ret was significantly more present than moonkins in 3s during s3/s4.

I'm 100% right.

You even said it yourself. Resto/Ret/War was way more common than any 3s boomkin team.

[minteK917]

I didn't say it was great. I said it was better in 3s than moonkins after he said it wasn't. Ret was significantly more present than moonkins in 3s during s3/s4.

I'm 100% right.

Well yeah ret was more present, but i mean its just a race to the bottom at this point lol. Ret was better then prot paladin and prot warrior too. Many specs were doing pretty shitty during TBC. Arcane mage lol? Thinking about it, there was more shit specs in pvp then good specs lol.

[Charge me Doctor]

Nah you clearly dont remember that first 2 weeks of this patch before the hot fix. Bubble used to reduce attack speed by 50%

It used to increase time before attack by 100%, basically you were wobbling your sword while standing in front of stunned enemy for so fucking long. But it was balanced around paladins not having instant attacks and using only autos - this time has gone and people were hit by WTF damage + unavoidable execute 45 range mallet

[Thelxi]

For the same reason I don't focus mages and rogues in BG. You can blow your CDs on them and then they will just reset the fight and run under a healer's skirt. Something like a druid or warrior is a much juicier target that will actually die when you kill it.

[LiiLoSNK]

That's true many specs were bad, but he's attacking other CLASSES, not specs.

You can't come and say "rets aren't as good as mages", because that's fucking stupid. FROST mages were strong, yes. Arcane? No. Fire? no. Both even less relevant than ret. Were all paladin specs bad? No. Holy has never not worked in arena.

Saying "ret is worse than [class]" is pointless because tons of classes had bad specs. Being too terrible to adapt to a holy role isn't an excuse. Learn the class instead of refusing to change specs and blaming other classes that play the stronger specs.

[minteK917]

That's true many specs were bad, but he's attacking other CLASSES, not specs.

You can't come and say "rets aren't as good as mages", because that's fucking stupid. FROST mages were strong, yes. Arcane? No. Fire? no. Both even less relevant than ret. Were all paladin specs bad? No. Holy has never not worked in arena.

Yeah i agree with that part lol. Id say my favorite paladin pvp spec was that prot healing abomination during wotlk. I had so much fucking fun going glad with that thing. best gameplay ever. One healing, one attack that silences, one CC. Free revive and build in shield wall lol.

[Snegovik]

rets were a t2-t3 spec last season, buddy. a 3 button powerhouse class for your melee cleave team which was incredibly obvious to predict.

You haven't proven anything. Just because a class has 1 OP spec, you're calling the whole class OP. Which is really stupid.

Also sl/sl is very different from full aff. sl/sl was played by the masses because it was easy. It didn't have UA either. Keep pretending to know what you're talking about. It's sad, but funny.

If Rets were powerhouse last season, please tell me, Paladin DPS spec (RET) had higher amount of glads compared to other DPS classes: mages/shammies/priests/druids/locks/wars/rogues ? I dont think so.
Also i was talking about DPS classes, you were the one who went to specs conversation. What i said is as Paladin DPS CLASS (aka Ret) historically has been underdog compared to other DPS classes such as Mages/Wars/Droods/Hunters/Priests/Rogs/Locks. Other DPS classes can swap to which ever spec is better DK: Unholy or Frost, Rogues: Combat or Sub, Mages: Arcane or Frost, Droods: Feral or Boomy, Hunter: Bm/Surv/MM, while Paladin as DPS class has only one DPS SPec: Ret, which historically over all was Not on even Grounds with DPS Classes like Mage/War/Rog/Priest/Drood/Lock/Hunter/DKS even WW who are our only for 2 xpacs, had better pvp standing in past 2 xpacs than Rets. So please do humor me, tell me that Rets: Paladin DPS class are pverall as good as DPS classes mentioned above in Rated PvP, while you trying to come up with another wonderful response, while you there, please tell me that Rets also amazing DPS CLaSS in RBGs.
P.S. i am not counting bugs (bc, cata) where rets would 1-2 global people or 1 month being Good in WoD S1, i am talking over all history of rated PvP: aka RBGs+Arena

Also pretty sure ret is Only DPS Class that never got to grand finals at blizzcon (other than WW), mages/droods/wars/dks/rogs/Priest/lock/hunters/shammies all have been there.

[Saberstrike]

Paladin is like warrior -- flawed by design. Either it's completely overpowered or completely useless.

In the current state of the game it's somehow both. Warrior with a good pocket healer in arena or even BGs is an unstoppable killing machine. Paladin is a mongoloid holy damage spec (60k mastery hits? which other class can claim that?) that fits well into a super-burst setup, and does well on it's own in battlegrounds.

However, both suffer from lack of personal sustainability (ret gets no damage reducton, warrior gets no heals) so once bubble is gone / warrior cooldowns are down they just drop like a sack of potatoes. If you take healers out of the equation rets have it a bit better because they can kite with freedom / los + heals, and they actually have the tools to deal with most dps classes 1 on 1.

But of course, 1 on 1 doesn't matter and rets will forever whine that they can no longer solo carry 3v3s to 2k with 3 buttons. #Wotlk

atm ret is also weak because discipline is strong, so people run a lot of dispels for priest shields (shaman / shadow priest) -- which rubs off on rets as they're largely a spec about magic buffs.

tl;dr - nerf healers and bring mana back, if pvp becomes a game of resource conservation and smart decisions (rather than 'bouncy goes hp bar, SPAM ALL THE BUTTONS' it is now) then all classes without exception will feel like they have a niche. Including ret.

[Charge me Doctor]

ret is not paladin dps class, it's dps spec, and you should compare ret to fire mage in this case

[Snegovik]

ret is not paladin dps class, it's dps spec, and you should compare ret to fire mage in this case

No, mages have 3 DPS specs, Paladin has 1 dps spec, in theory every class should have atleast 1 viable dps spec to be atleast on par with others, you can not ask blizzard to make all 3 Mage's specs good, thats just silly.

[Charge me Doctor]

No, mages have 3 DPS specs, Paladin has 1 dps spec, in theory every class should have atleast 1 viable dps spec to be atleast on par with others, you can not ask blizzard to make all 3 Mage's specs good, thats just silly.

in "theory" every class should have at least 1 viable spec to be at least on par with others. Where you imagined "dps" part - it's your issue.

If ret pvp doesn't work for you - well, that sucks, you'll have to reroll class (in case you can't play healer/tank). If you happen to be a mage and spite playing frost? Well, that sucks, you'll have to reroll class.

For example, i do not play anything but fire mage, i don't enjoy playing arcane or (ugh) frost. I do PvP on my mage, and i accepted that fire is not viable spec for PvP and i enjoy sitting in the middle; its fun to blow people with 10kps combustions and i'm not going to reroll just to play a viable spec that i won't even enjoy

[Felrane]

No, mages have 3 DPS specs, Paladin has 1 dps spec, in theory every class should have atleast 1 viable dps spec to be atleast on par with others, you can not ask blizzard to make all 3 Mage's specs good, thats just silly.

Every mage spec should be good though since thats all they are. Ret should also be good but blizzard has time and time again failed at balancing classes. We might see a change in legion but dont hold your breath.

[Snegovik]

Every mage spec should be good though since thats all they are. Ret should also be good but blizzard has time and time again failed at balancing classes. We might see a change in legion but dont hold your breath.

Thank you, some1 gets what i am saying, blizzard fails to balance Rets.

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in "theory" every class should have at least 1 viable spec to be at least on par with others. Where you imagined "dps" part - it's your issue.

If ret pvp doesn't work for you - well, that sucks, you'll have to reroll class (in case you can't play healer/tank). If you happen to be a mage and spite playing frost? Well, that sucks, you'll have to reroll class.

For example, i do not play anything but fire mage, i don't enjoy playing arcane or (ugh) frost. I do PvP on my mage, and i accepted that fire is not viable spec for PvP and i enjoy sitting in the middle; its fun to blow people with 10kps combustions and i'm not going to reroll just to play a viable spec that i won't even enjoy

So you are telling me, if i want to be viable at my class i have to re-roll holly ? lmao no thx i want to DPS, and blizzard should make Paladin DPS spec viable, but they failed again, and again. Also Ret does work for me, sine i am good at it, all i was saying that overall Ret is an underdog, and it is not on Even grounds as other Classes that fill DPS roll. For mages, currently Arcane/frost are both very very good in rated pvp, fire is not as good but simply you already have 2 DPS specs in 1 class than better than Ret for example. In the end of the day i just want blizzard finally balance Ret, so that my Paladin can fill DPS Roll and be on even ground with other "Big Boys" classes without being forces to roll Holly in order to be viable (good example RBGs 2-2.1kcr+ )

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I thinked Lay on Hands not available in Rated?

Nope, LOH is not usable in rated pvp due to balancing, since it would make Holy Paladin very good, even though i believe they should make it available, but for Rets only.

[Doez]

Rets dangerous. Hahahahahaha, good joke, mon. They're 2nd shittiest class spec in pvp, shittiest being arms warrior.

In before arena kids thinking they're good at pvp with a healer up their asses.

I bet you also spam "1v1 me bro" in League after getting dumpstered every team fight with your narrow perspective on pvp.

[Charge me Doctor]

So you are telling me, if i want to be viable at my class i have to re-roll holly ? lmao no thx i want to DPS

Should've picked pure dps class then, you can keep sitting there and whining about ret not being viable, or play paladin class as intended.

And yes, that is what i'm saying, if you want to be viable at your class, you have to change specs. It's common practice for PvE and PvE. If you want to be successful - you will pick whatever is more suited for your class for this job. If not - well, have fun, but you won't see any progression. If you would happen to play paladin in vanilla - you would be hugely disappointed, and no amount of whine would help you to make paladin class "viable" (tip: paladins were more than viable, but their main gameplay was buffing salv on DPS and wisdom on healers).

I am as much forced to roll frost, as you are forced to roll holy. And if i just happen to want to heal - i have to reroll my whole class. That's the fucking difference between pure classes and hybrid ones

[Snegovik]

Should've picked pure dps class then, you can keep sitting there and whining about ret not being viable, or play paladin class as intended.

And yes, that is what i'm saying, if you want to be viable at your class, you have to change specs. It's common practice for PvE and PvE. If you want to be successful - you will pick whatever is more suited for your class for this job. If not - well, have fun, but you won't see any progression. If you would happen to play paladin in vanilla - you would be hugely disappointed, and no amount of whine would help you to make paladin class "viable" (tip: paladins were more than viable, but their main gameplay was buffing salv on DPS and wisdom on healers).

I am as much forced to roll frost, as you are forced to roll holy. And if i just happen to want to heal - i have to reroll my whole class. That's the fucking difference between pure classes and hybrid ones

"Play class as intended" lol aka going holly? sigh kid it just shows ur ignorance, this not vanilla any more.
Changing spec i dont mind IF my class has more than 1 spec to fill up same roll niche (this is where you dont get me). Mage can flow from arcane to frost which ever is better= aka being viable at the roll you like to play=DPS. You telling me to change spec to be viable? ok but then i will be changing roll as well, and i find it poor balanced from blizzard's side forcing people to change roll they play: From DPS to Healer to be viable, then it is much different than for a mage or rogue or dk or war to change from one dps spec to another. Also this is not PVE forum, this is PVP, hence i only care about PvP.
Also you are confusing something again, i am not whining, i stated the fact that Paladin DPS as Class is an underdog in PvP compared to other DPS Classes.
Finally, why would i want roll a different class just to be viable in DPS roll? I enjoy Ret, i am good at it and I make it viable, and i have no desire changing classes or Roll I play (from DPS to Healer) just to play FOTM, i am only stating that it is about time blizzard finally balances Ret since Paladin has only One DPS spec and it is total garbage in PvP 2nd season in the row, while other classes (like mage or drood for example) have 2 DPS specs that are very very good in PvP

[Tyrannica]

Nah you clearly dont remember that first 2 weeks of this patch before the hot fix. Bubble used to reduce attack speed by 50%, not damage. So ret could pop wings, bubble and 2 shot full s4 gladiators of other classes with quest item, while being invincible. Arcane mage was break fast for ret in that 2 week, everyone was. Then bubble was hot fixed to reduce damage by 50%, then divine storm became physical instead of holy damage. There was never any class outside of a bug that ever got close to how ret was for 2 weeks. I know i had a ret level up just for that because of the beta. Those 2 week i was wearing gear from netherstorm quests and 2 shotting everything in what ever gear they could be during my invincibility. The only way arcane mage could even be in the same league would be making them able to cast spells during iceblock.

dude i remembered it pretty well, as i was the one playing bgs then day and night with only sleeping a bit12+ hours bgs. And i was on my mage playing arcane and even the survival hunters couldn't do a thing against the op arcaneblast and barriage combo. did not even noticed anything melee or a pala there, it was all about survival hunters and arcane mages the rest simply died before doing anything. Remember range dds are standing far away from melees, so i do not care if one of them bubblebursts on some melee meatshield in front of the range dd camp, he won't make it far.

That was the only time when arcane mages were an unstoppable force in wow pvp, if that was pvp, i think it was a slaughter.