One Archimonde is Impossible.

[shoc]

blizzard got their head up their own asses and bend the lore and rules to whatever allows them to easily make bosses / plots for us to deal with.

We don't even know if Blizzard will stick with the infinite multiverses thing until Warcraft: Chronicle Vol. 1 comes out next month. But other than that this Multiverse thing is functioning exactly the same as Marvel's Multiverse.

[Deleted]

I disagree that there are infinite Aman'thul's. Infinite Aman'thul's, all with near omniscient knowledge and understanding of the timeways would know best that there are Infinite Variations of himself, all with the power to influence the infinite Timeways independent of each other. That is bordering on a paradox.

So I hypothesize that there is only 1 Titan Pantheon just as there is only 1 Burning Legion. Existing outside of the Multiverse. Aman'thul's blessing would have pulled Nozdormu out of the Multiverse as well. Here is a description of Nozdormu's appearance: "Curiously, his position seems to change from moment to moment, as though its location in space were constantly in flux." This seems to imply that he is a 4th dimensional being, like the Burning Legion which leads me to conclude that the Pantheon could be 4th dimensional as well.

Reposting this because it's the closest representation of shoc's explanation:




Replace the New Gods and Darkseid with Titans and Sargeras.

[Aquamonkey]

"Unto you is charged the great task of keeping the purity of time. Know that there is only one true timeline, though there are those who would have it otherwise."
- Aman'Thul's blessing of the Bronze Aspect

How does this quote apply into the infinite Universes theory? I think this is pretty irrefutable proof that our Azeroth is the 'Prime' Azeroth and the Prime Timeline.

It only seems that way because you're cutting off the context of the quote.

Unto you is charged the great task of keeping the purity of time. Know that there is only one true timeline, though there are those who would have it otherwise. You must protect it. Without the truth of time as it is meant to unfold, more will be lost than you can possibly imagine. The fabric of reality will unravel. It is a heavy task--the base of all tasks of this world, for nothing can transpire without time.
--Twilight of the Aspects

He's not talking about it being the one true universe, he's talking about the timeline as it is destined to unfold. Our universe has a fate for how things are supposed to happen and the Bronzes need to protect it from changes.

This is mentioned again in Hellscream.

The elder raised a crooked finger and said, "You do not belong here. The spirits loathe your presence. You bring chaos to this world merely by existing."
[...]
"I can smell your lies before you speak, outsider." The shaman was actually hissing with fury. He took slow, deliberate steps forward, staring directly into Garrosh's face, veins standing out against his wrinkled skin. "Fate itself retches. You intend to topple everything about this world."
--Hellscream

It has nothing to do with the multiverse, it's about keeping history on track.

I disagree that there are infinite Aman'thul's. Infinite Aman'thul's, all with near omniscient knowledge and understanding of the timeways would know best that there are Infinite Variations of himself, all with the power to influence the infinite Timeways independent of each other. That is bordering on a paradox.

They are not omniscient.

Despite Aman'Thul's vast powers, however, he was not omniscient: neither he, nor any of the other titans or Aspects knew that Neltharion the Earth-Warder would become a pawn of the Old Gods and the herald of the apocalypse. (AskCDev)

So I hypothesize that there is only 1 Titan Pantheon just as there is only 1 Burning Legion. Existing outside of the Multiverse.

They don't.

Do Titans also transcend all realities or are there multiple Titans?
They don't, there are multiple titans, they are searching the cosmos for additional Titans. (Muffinus)
Then how can Sargeras, as a (former) Titan, transcend all realities?
He doesn't. (Muffinus)

Aman'thul's blessing would have pulled Nozdormu out of the Multiverse as well. Here is a description of Nozdormu's appearance: "Curiously, his position seems to change from moment to moment, as though its location in space were constantly in flux." This seems to imply that he is a 4th dimensional being, like the Burning Legion which leads me to conclude that the Pantheon could be 4th dimensional as well.

The Legion is not 4th dimensional. Transcending time does not mean transcending realities. The Nether transcends realities, but it has linear time.

[shoc]

It only seems that way because you're cutting off the context of the quote.

Unto you is charged the great task of keeping the purity of time. Know that there is only one true timeline, though there are those who would have it otherwise. You must protect it. Without the truth of time as it is meant to unfold, more will be lost than you can possibly imagine. The fabric of reality will unravel. It is a heavy task--the base of all tasks of this world, for nothing can transpire without time.
--Twilight of the Aspects

He's not talking about it being the one true universe, he's talking about the timeline as it is destined to unfold. Our universe has a fate for how things are supposed to happen and the Bronzes need to protect it from changes.

This is mentioned again in Hellscream.

The elder raised a crooked finger and said, "You do not belong here. The spirits loathe your presence. You bring chaos to this world merely by existing."
[...]
"I can smell your lies before you speak, outsider." The shaman was actually hissing with fury. He took slow, deliberate steps forward, staring directly into Garrosh's face, veins standing out against his wrinkled skin. "Fate itself retches. You intend to topple everything about this world."
--Hellscream

It has nothing to do with the multiverse, it's about keeping history on track.


They are not omniscient.

Despite Aman'Thul's vast powers, however, he was not omniscient: neither he, nor any of the other titans or Aspects knew that Neltharion the Earth-Warder would become a pawn of the Old Gods and the herald of the apocalypse. (AskCDev)

They don't.

Do Titans also transcend all realities or are there multiple Titans?
They don't, there are multiple titans, they are searching the cosmos for additional Titans. (Muffinus)
Then how can Sargeras, as a (former) Titan, transcend all realities?
He doesn't. (Muffinus)

The Legion is not 4th dimensional. Transcending time does not mean transcending realities. The Nether transcends realities, but it has linear time.

Interesting. Thanks for the Blue Quotes. What did they mean when they mentioned Titans seeking more Titans? I don't recall that being discussed much on these forums. And Sargeras doesn't transcend all realities? Doesn't that contradict this whole conversation?

[Tripzzz]

Burning legion lore is a huge convoluted mess. Blizzard is really fucking it up to extremely retarded levels....

[omeomorfismo]

It only seems that way because you're cutting off the context of the quote.

Unto you is charged the great task of keeping the purity of time. Know that there is only one true timeline, though there are those who would have it otherwise. You must protect it. Without the truth of time as it is meant to unfold, more will be lost than you can possibly imagine. The fabric of reality will unravel. It is a heavy task--the base of all tasks of this world, for nothing can transpire without time.
--Twilight of the Aspects

He's not talking about it being the one true universe, he's talking about the timeline as it is destined to unfold. Our universe has a fate for how things are supposed to happen and the Bronzes need to protect it from changes.

This is mentioned again in Hellscream.

The elder raised a crooked finger and said, "You do not belong here. The spirits loathe your presence. You bring chaos to this world merely by existing."
[...]
"I can smell your lies before you speak, outsider." The shaman was actually hissing with fury. He took slow, deliberate steps forward, staring directly into Garrosh's face, veins standing out against his wrinkled skin. "Fate itself retches. You intend to topple everything about this world."
--Hellscream

It has nothing to do with the multiverse, it's about keeping history on track.


They are not omniscient.

Despite Aman'Thul's vast powers, however, he was not omniscient: neither he, nor any of the other titans or Aspects knew that Neltharion the Earth-Warder would become a pawn of the Old Gods and the herald of the apocalypse. (AskCDev)

They don't.

Do Titans also transcend all realities or are there multiple Titans?
They don't, there are multiple titans, they are searching the cosmos for additional Titans. (Muffinus)
Then how can Sargeras, as a (former) Titan, transcend all realities?
He doesn't. (Muffinus)

The Legion is not 4th dimensional. Transcending time does not mean transcending realities. The Nether transcends realities, but it has linear time.

there isnt blue that explains from what year are archimonde and mannoroth?

however i dont see a big mess, they simply dont take a euclidean metric for the multiverse. its cool

[Koryn123]

It sucks. I just tried to rationalize it with my headcanon that AU Draenor was just popped into outer space somewhere in the MU when it was connected to MU Azeroth, but then if it's MU Archimonde, and his lieutenants are the MU people they're supposed to be, then why didn't they have MU Mannoroth who should have recovered by then, since he died before those other lieutenants?

I submit that because Mannoroth is so powerful, second to Archimonde, he takes a long time to recover from dying, so that's why Gul'dan had to reconstruct him. Same with MU Mannoroth, not recovered yet, or just plain old dead because maybe something like "only demons/demon-corrupted people can kill me for good" and MU Grom filled that requirement, killing him.

Azgalor is not as powerful, thus he was easier to bring back and was ready to help Archimonde. Maybe the demons go back, and their friends have to do some rituals or something to restore them? And Mannoroth would take too long to bring back, and they figured it wasn't worth the time when they could get Azgalor who wasn't quite as good, but a lot easier to summon? And Archimonde was an essential, so they brought him back right away?

Idk. I'd just ignore it all and pretend they're all AU except for Archimonde, who just sort of adopted the AU demons stranded in the MU and used them to fight.

[purebalance]

Once a demon dies, its soul goes back to the twisting nether, where it takes time to create a new body for the soul to inhabit. Resurrecting Mannoroth returned him to service faster than letting him reconstitute a body would have. Previous corpses left on worlds have nothing to do with the actual soul being sent back to the twisting nether. Bodies are just biological suits, not the driver. I don't see a problem.

That is NOT how Illidan describes it since Illidan is directing you to go back to YOUR corpse explaining that you work the same way as demons.

- - - Updated - - -

It only seems that way because you're cutting off the context of the quote.

Hilarious you should say that since you CONSTANTLY misquote the death of Y'shaarj by leaving out the most important part.

[Raugnaut]

I would like to know how Socrethar is explained, given that we have a full-fledges Ereadar Socrethar in Netherstorm, and a recently-turned Socrethar in Draenor.

[Deleted]

I would like to know how Socrethar is explained, given that we have a full-fledges Ereadar Socrethar in Netherstorm, and a recently-turned Socrethar in Draenor.

The Twisting Nether anchor theory works. Even those demons that are recently turned end up anchor to the prime version in the Nether.

[Deleted]

Having a infinite numbers of Archimondes, in a infinite amount of universes, but unable to exist in the same plane of existence at the same time would solve all problems.

[Qualia]

Interesting. Thanks for the Blue Quotes. What did they mean when they mentioned Titans seeking more Titans? I don't recall that being discussed much on these forums. And Sargeras doesn't transcend all realities? Doesn't that contradict this whole conversation?

There isn't much to discuss about Titans seeking more Titans since we don't have anything other than that one line to talk about. The blue post might have meant a number of things - (all of this are my guesses, not official information) maybe there are multiple versions of a given Titan across the multiverse, and the Titans are trying to looking for them to create an awesome infinite cosmic order force; Maybe there are multiple Titans, but not every universe has them, and they are actually rare and between - only specific key universes have them; Or maybe the Titans are actually unique, but each Universe has their own version of the Pantheon with different members (i.e: while we have Aman'thul, AU might have Bman'thul with different power instead); There are just too many possibilities, but we don't have any info about the Titans' goals or means for "searching for additional Titans" so I doubt there would be any good discussion other than just guessing randomly until we get more info about this.

Sargeras has never transcended realities, because he isn't a demon, he is still a Titan. Actually, neither do the demons, but the demons' souls are anchored to the Nether which transcend all realities, so there is only one demon each - at least that's how the current lore is. I don't think the fact Sargeras doesn't transcend realities contradicts the conversation about Archimonde. Although, it open up the questions - does that mean there are multiple Sargeras? Are all of them master of the BL? Or only our Sargeras somehow (by the power of fate!) turn bad?

[Raugnaut]

The Twisting Nether anchor theory works. Even those demons that are recently turned end up anchor to the prime version in the Nether.

... So what you are saying is that while you have the "uncorrupted" Socrethar in Draenor, you also have the full Eredar Socrether in the Nether? And when uncorrupted Socrether in Draenor went corrupted, he merged with the already existing version or something.

[Aquamonkey]

... So what you are saying is that while you have the "uncorrupted" Socrethar in Draenor, you also have the full Eredar Socrether in the Nether? And when uncorrupted Socrether in Draenor went corrupted, he merged with the already existing version or something.

WoD takes place 30ish years before TBC. More that Outland Socrethar merged with Draenor Socrethar.

[Nize]

Blizz needs to create more defined rules for stuff like this. Unfortunately, they haven't, so I kinda have to make one up in my head to rectify it.

My belief is that the Legion, whilst able to traverse universes, are still bound by time, whereas the player is NOT, thus can travel through time. So, what's this mean? Well, that means that demons experience events by their location in the timeline regardless of what universe they roam. So, to Archimonde, it's very likely that through his perspective, he actually fought us in Draenor before attacking the World Tree because of WoD's location in the timeline.

[Aquamonkey]

Blizz needs to create more defined rules for stuff like this. Unfortunately, they haven't, so I kinda have to make one up in my head to rectify it.

My belief is that the Legion, whilst able to traverse universes, are still bound by time, whereas the player is NOT, thus can travel through time. So, what's this mean? Well, that means that demons experience events by their location in the timeline regardless of what universe they roam. So, to Archimonde, it's very likely that through his perspective, he actually fought us in Draenor before attacking the World Tree because of WoD's location in the timeline.

The dev notes for Archimonde say he traveled across time and learned new tricks since the he faced us in Hyjal.

[Icedcoffeee]

I heard that the "fundamental defect" Sargeras wants to fix is the whole "transcendent twisting nether" thing. Only Sargeras could see how many plot holes it would generate.

[Deleted]

WoD takes place 30ish years before TBC. More that Outland Socrethar merged with Draenor Socrethar.

Doesn't the MM artifact questline explain that time works differently inside the Twisting Nether?

Blizz needs to create more defined rules for stuff like this. Unfortunately, they haven't, so I kinda have to make one up in my head to rectify it.

My belief is that the Legion, whilst able to traverse universes, are still bound by time, whereas the player is NOT, thus can travel through time. So, what's this mean? Well, that means that demons experience events by their location in the timeline regardless of what universe they roam. So, to Archimonde, it's very likely that through his perspective, he actually fought us in Draenor before attacking the World Tree because of WoD's location in the timeline.

Like Aquamonkey said, the WoD Archimonde is the one we killed in Hyjal before.

[Yeran]

Having a infinite numbers of Archimondes, in a infinite amount of universes, but unable to exist in the same plane of existence at the same time would solve all problems.

I like the idea of all demons being restricted to their universe, but AU Archimonde presumably sent Gul'dan to MU Azeroth, which he wouldn't really have a reason to if he was restricted to the AU. If demons of different realities worked together then why wouldn't MU Azeroth get invaded by the orc forces of 1000 draenors instead of just one (second wasn't initiated by demons)?

In my headcanon you are still right. The demons of different universes just refuse to work together because of pride/not knowing/hating each other and AU Archimonde actually wanted Gul'dan to free AU Illidan (probably hoping for some AU sunwell shenanigans). Gul'dan used the influence of the hourglass to escape AU Archimonde to MU Azeroth and still bound by the pact he frees MU Illidan there.
Could work I guess, but is still not what Blizzard has told us so far.