[FIRE] Legion Beta Megathread

[Unkonwn321]

Does anyone have links to justification/reasoning for removing combustion dot, inferno blast spreading dots, and not being able to have hot streak and heating up at the same time? Not being able to reliably spread dots is fairly lame. Combustion change, although it has awesome animation, lacks complexity and fun interactions.

Another note to people previously worried the combustion 12 second duration: If it does only last 12 seconds, our dps will be scaled around that. Which means we will be extremely bursty and scale very well throughout the expansion.

[Obelisk Kai]

Does anyone have links to justification/reasoning for removing combustion dot, inferno blast spreading dots, and not being able to have hot streak and heating up at the same time? Not being able to reliably spread dots is fairly lame. Combustion change, although it has awesome animation, lacks complexity and fun interactions.

Another note to people previously worried the combustion 12 second duration: If it does only last 12 seconds, our dps will be scaled around that. Which means we will be extremely bursty and scale very well throughout the expansion.

The combustion change risks entering the annals of WoW history as an example of blizzard dumbing stuff down. There is a debate to be had about that, but it won't be had here, because changing Combustion is not dumbing wow down.

Combustion is a terrible ability as it stands now. How do I define a terrible ability? One that requires you downloading an entirely separate addon in order to use it properly. An ability so poorly implemented that even a minor mis-step could seriously affect your dps output, causing you to underperform on a level out of proportion to the initial error.

I don't really care WHAT they replaced Combustion with. Yes, it's a cooldown. Yes it's more predictable. But so what? Combustion as it is needed to go and I for one am glad that it is gone. This is an example of simplification done right.

Personally though, I mourn the loss of the Combustion dot. Personally I would have introduced a powerful dot in place of Cinderstorm as a level 100 talent, so that those who liked a dot heavy playstyle could have done so.

They explained the removal of Hot Streak and heating up co-existing I believe because they didn't like people not using their procs. They argued it was counter-intuitive. I'd have to play fire to see if they have made enough updates to the playstyle to compensate for the loss of this feature.

Last I heard inferno blast should at least spread ignite. I know it no longer spreads Living bomb...in one of the more inexplicable decisions Blizzard has made for Fire this time around. As has been discussed elsewhere, having living bomb spread on detonation is a bit rubbish when you realise it will take 12 seconds for that to happen and that Mages would much rather have the control to choose when to spread their dots that they were afforded in the previous build.

[Nihiel]

Regarding the change to Combustion as a cd, I think it also stems from the fact that it was a cd with a huuuuuge variance in effect. I mean a new player wouldn't figure out how to get a great Combustion going, it would require tons of outside knowledge (as well as clarifications through addons) to maximise. I get the feeling Blizzard wants to lower the barrier of entry so anyone can play without having to do research about how to play a given spec. This is also why they removed dot snapshotting I'd argue. Either way, it is a bit sad to see the huge dot cd that fire has had for so long go, but on the other hand the new iteration is better in every other way.

[pyrostorm9001]

Last I heard inferno blast should at least spread ignite. I know it no longer spreads Living bomb...in one of the more inexplicable decisions Blizzard has made for Fire this time around. As has been discussed elsewhere, having living bomb spread on detonation is a bit rubbish when you realise it will take 12 seconds for that to happen and that Mages would much rather have the control to choose when to spread their dots that they were afforded in the previous build.

In Warlords Fire was given an AOE role, and was tuned as such. In Legion there is a fair amount of focus on spec identity rather than class identity, and while you can change specs on a per fight basis its a bit of a pain to do so and may be a little difficult to do early on in the expansion. So from my perspective it seems to me that they are giving fire a strong single target theme with aoe/cleave that builds on the strength of the single target rotation.

Up until the build before this current one, Inferno Blast didnt spread anything except LB, because of the changes made to support a stronger single target spec. Pyroblast no longer has a dot component and Ignite has changed to the following "Every 2 sec, your Ignites may spread to another nearby enemy." You can even choose to spend your Hot Streak on Flame Strike (animation looks fantastic by the way)

Now if they could just change LB to have a 3 second duration...

[Rothex]

Now if they could just change LB to have a 3 second duration...

Why do people keep suggesting this? Is it because you want it to be exactly the same as the HotS spell?

I couldn't imagine the frustration in Fire's AoE rotation of having to spam LB every 3-6 seconds. The rotation would feel broken up and jagged. Ignite would suffer with constant globals meaning nothing is contributing to Ignite, heck even trying to proc Hot Streak would be annoying and slow as you'd have to keep having to fit in LB every few seconds in between Fireballs and Pyros. What a nightmare...

I can totally understand wanting a shorter duration for LB (or for a way to perhaps manually trigger the explosion/chain so it's not so slow) but please not 3 seconds.

[pyrostorm9001]

Why do people keep suggesting this? Is it because you want it to be exactly the same as the HotS spell?

No because 12 seconds until explosion is too long to spread it to adds (that will probably be dead) and then another 12 seconds for them to explode.
However if you could shift the damage done in 12 seconds to 3 seconds, but place a 12 second CD on the talent from being used in the way you describe it then it would be fine.

[Cabrian]

Cartoonz Video For those that haven't seen it, the new Dragon's Breath animation is @ 2:38

[Polarthief]

Why do people keep suggesting this? Is it because you want it to be exactly the same as the HotS spell?

I couldn't imagine the frustration in Fire's AoE rotation of having to spam LB every 3-6 seconds. The rotation would feel broken up and jagged. Ignite would suffer with constant globals meaning nothing is contributing to Ignite, heck even trying to proc Hot Streak would be annoying and slow as you'd have to keep having to fit in LB every few seconds in between Fireballs and Pyros. What a nightmare...

I can totally understand wanting a shorter duration for LB (or for a way to perhaps manually trigger the explosion/chain so it's not so slow) but please not 3 seconds.

It'd be assumed that LB explosions would also refresh on the initial target, so after 6s, all targets would have LB for the rest of their lives/until dispelled, as long as there's at least 3 targets (first target spreads to targets 2 and 3. 2 spreads to 1 and 3, and 3 spreads to 1 and 2, so now all 3 have it and will spread to each other every time).

With a 12s duration, you pretty much never get LB on other targets. It's way too slow.

[Imnick]

The spread LBs don't spread LB themselves, it says so on the tooltip.

[whisperingsage]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20742985839#15

This is a bug--it's intended that Living Bomb detonates if the target dies.


Yes, sorry--intended that it detonates and spreads.

-Sigma

That's something, at least. So now it's actually better to put LB on a low health target that can be killed quickly, so the bombs spread to the whole pack. Or if there's a priority target that needs to die first, same thing.

Actually, it might even make LB the best choice if there's lots of low health streaming adds. One cast could potentially keep a bomb up for a whole phase if timing and luck cooperate.

[Sarm]

Living Bombs spawned from an explosion won't spread when they themselves blow up, though. Having an unending chain of explosions can't happen.

[whisperingsage]

I thought it meant it just wouldn't spread back to the first add. In that case, ignore the last two sentences.

[Polarthief]

Living Bombs spawned from an explosion won't spread when they themselves blow up, though. Having an unending chain of explosions can't happen.

Lol seriously? This makes LB pretty garbage if that's true then, especially if they keep the 24s total duration. Another perfect example of "stop taking ideas that don't work in an MMO from games that aren't MMOs, Blizzard".

[pixelated senpai]

I feel like the whole spec in general has lost its identity.Before, we use to get as much crit as possible so that when our combustion was up, it had the potential to be big and meaty. Now we are getting crit just to have pyroblast, combustion gives more crit for the sake of more pyroblast, about 1/3 of our talents give us more pyroblast.There is nothing really meaningful about the spec anymore and nothing to work towards to during a fight other than getting a pyroblast. I agree to an extent that live combustion wasn't really beginner friendly, but it could have been turned into something more fulfilling for Legion.

[Rothex]

However if you could shift the damage done in 12 seconds to 3 seconds, but place a 12 second CD on the talent from being used in the way you describe it then it would be fine.

I think I'd be ok with this, as long as the 12 second cd remained but the bombs exploded/spread under that time.

If they're going to reduce the explosion time on LB, especially if it's only going to be a few seconds, then they may as well just remove the DoT component altogether and put all the damage into the explosion; you know, like an actual bomb. Seems kinda silly to have a spell do 1 or 2 ticks before it explodes.

In the end, do what they need to do to improve LB but I just don't want to have a talent that we have to spam in between every Fireball because I feel that'll be too disruptive to Fire's rotation.

Related but side note: I remember reading somewhere that the cd is reduced by haste but is the actual DoT reduced by haste on the Alpha too? Or is the DoT a flat 12 seconds regardless and haste just makes it tick more?

[Nihiel]

I feel like the whole spec in general has lost its identity.Before, we use to get as much crit as possible so that when our combustion was up, it had the potential to be big and meaty. Now we are getting crit just to have pyroblast, combustion gives more crit for the sake of more pyroblast, about 1/3 of our talents give us more pyroblast.There is nothing really meaningful about the spec anymore and nothing to work towards to during a fight other than getting a pyroblast. I agree to an extent that live combustion wasn't really beginner friendly, but it could have been turned into something more fulfilling for Legion.

I agree, but I think they intended for the "crits during cds make big dots you can spread" gameplay to exist through Combustion still. It is mentioned that Pyroblast! procs double the Ignite of regular crits, and that'd mean relatively big Ignites during Combustion - on top of that all of our crit rating will be turned into mastery for the duration for even bigger Ignites. We'll keep seeing bigger and bigger Ignites as we scale up through the expansion so that's essentially the playstyle of fire preserved. Less flashy, though, and less control since Ignite spreads automatically!

Not sure if it still exists but there's also a legendary which doubles your Ignite from Pyroblasts - even bigger dots.

[Polarthief]

I agree, but I think they intended for the "crits during cds make big dots you can spread" gameplay to exist through Combustion still.

Except you have 0 on-demand, spreadable, DoTs. Both LB and Ignite now spread on its own (LB in the most stupid way imaginable), and Pyroblast no longer has a DoT. They butchered Fire.

[Imnick]

You've got an on-the-floor DoT from Flamestrike!
(I know that's not what you meant)

[Erolian]

The real problem with fire right now is the decision tree.

Make yourself proc a pyroblast?
If yes use it.
If no you're an idiot try again.
Repeat.

Maybe you'll worry about when exactly you use the artifact ability sometimes as the CD is long enough to make syncing it to aoe/procs something you'd want to do but basically all of the abilities are fire and forget on CD

[Nihiel]

Except you have 0 on-demand, spreadable, DoTs. Both LB and Ignite now spread on its own (LB in the most stupid way imaginable), and Pyroblast no longer has a DoT. They butchered Fire.

True, there's no longer any real control over how you spread the dots as that happens automatically. I do not like this change either.
But there's a lot more control over when you're building up big Ignites so in the end it evens out in some way no? Currently we have no direct control over our burst but complete control over spreading. On the legion alpha we have complete control over our burst and the spreading just happens passively. While flavourless and meh since it's passive, it is arguably better like this?

Disregarding LB changes, the Pyroblast dot seems to be baked into Ignite as Ignite is stronger in the Legion incarnation. The dot gameplay still exists even though the different dots (Ignite, Combustion, Pyroblast) have been merged together in one.