[FIRE] Legion Beta Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Scorch is a mobility tool, not a dps tool. It's gonna stay that way. If you never use it or never feel the need to use it, it will be the same thing as Arcane Mages never using Displacement. Completely up to you.

If scorch is the mobility option for fire, and Displacement is the mobility option for Arcane, perhaps they should make Ice Floes Frost only and solve the problem of the level 75 tier?

Regardless, I agree in that scorch is a mobility tool. Not sure if it's damage should be increased but I like how it allows us to maintain our rotation on the move. I feel less pressure to take Ice Floes as a Fire Mage due to scorch.

[Seneca]

It's my humble opinion that you guys are misunderstanding mobility tools and damage while moving tools.

Mobility tools are tools that let us move faster or farer.

Damage while moving tools are tools that minimize (or completely counter) the damage loss while moving.

If my purpose is to move from point A to point B as fast as possible (mobility), casting Scorch, using Ice Floes, or just running without using them accomplish the same result.

If my purpose is to maximize the damage I do while I run, without the need to run faster or farer (damage while moving), Blink is not going to help me at all.

Sometimes both tools can accomplish the same objective, but not always.

Said that, a tool can be both a damage while moving and mobility tool (Shimmer).

If my purpose is to move as fast as possible without losing DPS, Shimmer is going to help me because a) Blink is a gap closer/opener (so the mobility need is satisfied) and b) the fact that Shimmer removes Blink GCD makes so no time is wasted using GCD for non-damaging spells (so the damage while moving need is satisfied too).

Said that, Scorch (and Ice Floes) is a damage while moving tool, it is not a mobility too (as I said above, casting Scorch or not casting anything at all accomplish the same result, mobility wise).

The issue with Scorch is that it is a very weak damage while moving tool, for 3 reasons mostly, 1) the very existence of Ice Floes 2) (minor point) the fact that it is so weak that maybe just Blinking and going back to the main rotation could arguably be better in many cases 3) Legion new stuff, like having 2 IB charges, Flame On, Shimmer, etc..

//

As far as I know, in Legion, Scorch is losing its +30% MS bonus, so it loses its mobility perk (becoming just a damage while moving tool).

But even if it does a comeback, it just means that Scorch will be both a very weak damage while moving and mobility tool, imho.

Personally, I would not say that a straight buff is necessary the best solution, but I think that a tweak is necessary.

I do rather have, let's say (random thought of the minute), a 30 sec CD Fireball-like Scorch than a, let's say, always usable but never actually used Scorch.

[GemaRawr]

Has anybody else noticed the horrible Ignite bug on alpha? Refreshing Ignite changes the per-tick damage for the entire duration rather than the rolling dot system we've had for years. This means I can get a huge Ignite during combust and it's currently a DPS increase to wait for that powerful Ignite to expire before casting anything else.

It's obviously not intended that casting spells lowers DPS but I haven't seen it mentioned.

[Zertloc]

Iirc, that's how it currently works. That's the reason why we want to use 3-4 Pyro procs in a row rather than blasting fireballs in between the Pyros.

If anything, they could probably change it to be stacking with a cap based off of mastery and we would see a more consistent amount of ignite damage. Especially now that Combustion has been changed so drastically.

[Polarthief]

Scorch is a mobility tool, not a dps tool. It's gonna stay that way. If you never use it or never feel the need to use it, it will be the same thing as Arcane Mages never using Displacement. Completely up to you.

Displacement actually has some use. Scorch is ONLY used in the following scenarios:

1. You have no PF/HS procs up
2. You have no IB charges
3. You have no IF charges

When is the above scenario ever going to happen? Maybe on super mobile-heavy fights sure, but that's just insane.

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Has anybody else noticed the horrible Ignite bug on alpha? Refreshing Ignite changes the per-tick damage for the entire duration rather than the rolling dot system we've had for years.

I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean here. It might be because I just woke up but I'm not grasping it for some reason.

Are you saying the duration doesn't refresh or applying a new Ignite rewrites the old Ignite or... what?

Also, are you sure other nearby mobs aren't affecting it? Remember, all Ignites now spread to another target, not just one.

[Shangalar]

Just looking at Hellfire Citadel and Ice Floes, bearing in mind that I play Arcane.

Bosses I always or usually want more IF charges: Kilrog, Iskar, Fel Lord, Xhul'horac, Tyrant, Archimonde
Bosses I occasionally need more IF charges: Assault, Kormrok, Council, Gorefiend, Mannoroth
Bosses I never or rarely need more IF charges: Reaver, Socrethar

Just judging by that list, if I played Fire I'd sometimes like to use the future Scorch combo to get a Pyroblast. I think you're putting too much weight on the difference between mobility and dealing damage while moving. We've been using Ice Floes as our primary raiding talent half of MoP and the entirety of WoD. There was no choice even until now. Keeping Ice Floes on the talent tier with two CC spells is fantastic exactly for that reason - it doesn't detract us from having other potentially useful talents and we have two other choices which will be used in PvP.

The only think that I see could improve the Legion iteration of Scorch, without making it mandatory or too powerful, is reducing the amount of casts it requires to proc a Pyroblast from 4 down to 3. But it's still very far from useless.

[Polarthief]

The only think that I see could improve the Legion iteration of Scorch, without making it mandatory or too powerful, is reducing the amount of casts it requires to proc a Pyroblast from 4 down to 3. But it's still very far from useless.

Which would be awesome but I don't see them doing it for PvP reasons. 3 would be a lot better in PvE though.

[pleblius]

Has anybody else noticed the horrible Ignite bug on alpha? Refreshing Ignite changes the per-tick damage for the entire duration rather than the rolling dot system we've had for years. This means I can get a huge Ignite during combust and it's currently a DPS increase to wait for that powerful Ignite to expire before casting anything else.

It's obviously not intended that casting spells lowers DPS but I haven't seen it mentioned.

That's how it's always worked. You have an Ignite bank that equals Damage/tick * #ticks remaining. Whenever you cast a spell it adds to the bank, which is then divided over the 9 seconds. You still gain the same amount of damage, it just starts to spread out again.


As for the Scorch debate. As somebody mentioned, blinking is also just a better solution.
As an example, I'm going to point to Mythic Hans&Franz, a fight which had phases with high consistent movement, where Blink was unavailable as it'd wipe the raid. I still don't think I used Scorch at all, and that's when it did give a movement buff.
Scorch isn't in a good place.

[Polarthief]

As for the Scorch debate. As somebody mentioned, blinking is also just a better solution.

I really, REALLY hope there will be a Blink glyph that turns your character (and maybe camera?) to face your target if you Blink through them. That coupled with Shimmer would be amazing.

... since I'm assuming Momentum is being removed?

[pleblius]

Shimmer is weird to me, because without momentum it's almost guaranteed that after you blink you won't be facing the boss to finish your cast. I guess you'll just have to turn really fast.

[Polarthief]

Shimmer is weird to me, because without momentum it's almost guaranteed that after you blink you won't be facing the boss to finish your cast. I guess you'll just have to turn really fast.

Exactly my problem with it, which is why there should at least be a minor that turns your character (and maybe camera) to face towards your target.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

... since I'm assuming Momentum is being removed?

Don't think there's any confirmed glyphs yet? Momentum seems like the kind of thing to survive in the new system though.

[pfbe]

On a pvp note, I'm wondering about what is dispellable and what is not. Combustion, Hot Streak, Ignite, the regular self-buffs, etc. Has anyone checked to see if anything changed in that regard?

[Polarthief]

Don't think there's any confirmed glyphs yet? Momentum seems like the kind of thing to survive in the new system though.

Actually it won't matter since you can't use Shimmer+Momentum while casting a spell since Momentum only works in the way you're moving, so nvm.

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On a pvp note, I'm wondering about what is dispellable and what is not. Combustion, Hot Streak, Ignite, the regular self-buffs, etc. Has anyone checked to see if anything changed in that regard?

Assume everything, even Combustion.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

On a pvp note, I'm wondering about what is dispellable and what is not. Combustion, Hot Streak, Ignite, the regular self-buffs, etc. Has anyone checked to see if anything changed in that regard?

Dispellable:

• Combustion
• Hot Streak
• Ignite
• Dragon's Breath
• Living Bomb
• Ice Barrier
• Ice Floes
• Cauterizing Blink

Not:

• Pyretic Incantation
• Heating Up
• Flamestrike's slow
• Blast Wave's slow
• Invisiblity's fade
• Invisibility proper
• Flame Orbs

Unknown:

• Scorched Earth
• Crucible of Flames

^However, both of these show as magic in the database so likely yes to both.

[Recom]

Actually it won't matter since you can't use Shimmer+Momentum while casting a spell since Momentum only works in the way you're moving, so nvm.

You can still Ice Floes + cast + blink while casting.

[pleblius]

You can still Ice Floes + cast + blink while casting.

Oh man, a mandatory glyph and talent combo just to make half of another talent useful.

Pls no.

[Polarthief]

You can still Ice Floes + cast + blink while casting.

I was thinking about that, but why would you need to both Blink and IF a spell? You should either IF or Blink, not both.

I do want to point out how fucking amazing Shimmer is for fights with immobile bosses w/ random "get out of the fire zones" like Megaera (ToT) and Kromog (BRF), and fights with a lot of room and "get out of the fire zones" like Iron Reaver (HFC). It's essentially +2 IF charges but you don't even have to move!

I also just realized that this topic of Shimmer is being discussed in the Fire thread. I keep feeling like all these threads are just the general discussion, my bad! I'll cease to talk about it here since this should be about Fire specifically.

[pleblius]

Well, the original conversation was Scorch. It kind of mutated to being about Shimmer.

The problem with Scorch is that we're not entirely sure what it's supposed to be. Some of us see it strictly as a mobility tool--which I disagree with--while other see it as a DPS-while-moving-tool--which is the side I'm on.

That may be Blizzard's issue. They're not sure what to do with it, especially considering how strong DPS-while-moving tools can be, e.g. Scorch in T14.

[Polarthief]

That may be Blizzard's issue. They're not sure what to do with it, especially considering how strong DPS-while-moving tools can be, e.g. Scorch in T14.

As much as I don't want to say this because Kuni might see it and kill me for even suggesting it, perhaps IF could become a Frost/Arcane only thing and Scorch "replaces" that.

Idk, it just seems extremely odd to have both IF and Scorch for Fire, especially when it seems like they're setting up Scorched Earth as our mobility DPS.

So scorch makes you run faster? Makes you teleport? No? Then it's a mobile dps tool. If the dps aspect of it is so bad it never gets used there's no point to it being in the game.

It should be currently assumed that Improved Scorch (+Speed after casting Scorch) is removed. That could change at any moment but it seems like pretty much all perks are gone unless stated otherwise like Water Jet.