Incentives for Accepting Lower-Geared Players?

[Deleted]

if you got no social life what-so-ever, that is.

It takes 5-7 hours of /played time to get ilvl 700+ via pvp so no need to have no social life "what-so-ever" dont like pvp? your loss its easy and fast.

[clevin]

No amount of gold/satchels/rewards would edge me towards the idea of carrying random people personally,outside of my guild I couldn't care less for anyone else.

Then stay the fuck out of the LF system and run with your guild. Problem solved.

Pull My Finger was right, above. Talking about a 690 as if you're 'carrying' them is indicative of OP's problem. If a good player at 690 can do enough to beat the encounter, you're not carrying them. You might not be moving through the instance as fast as if they were 730 but tough shit. In fact, this "but I want this to be over as fast as possible" mentality is one of the things that the devs shouldn't cater to. This should be a game where you have fun, not a chore you want to finish ASAP. Hint: if it's the latter, you probably should step away for a bit.

[Deleted]

it might be a better idea to tune the game better to begin with.

640 ilvl on my hunter and struggling to hit 25k.

Some mythic geared guy is in my LFR group at 140k and he's probably half watching dragon ball Z while he does it. I may as well not be here. its not fun for me, it isn't fun for him and its *bad design.*

[clevin]

it might be a better idea to tune the game better to begin with.

640 ilvl on my hunter and struggling to hit 25k.

Some mythic geared guy is in my LFR group at 140k and he's probably half watching dragon ball Z while he does it. I may as well not be here. its not fun for me, it isn't fun for him and its *bad design.*

Yep. Instances should be tuned for an level about 10-15 below the gear it drops. So, LFR should be tuned around an level of 660-5 or so. Lower than that is OK if you also have some people a bit higher. If Mythic 5s drop 685, tune them for a group of 670s.

In LFR, remove legendary items. The only reason that Mythic player should be there is perhaps to hang with a friend who needs LFR but they shouldn't have any incentive to run it for themselves (sure, they might still decide to blow through it for fun, but that's on them).

[Hablion]

You can easily get full 700 ilvl within around 3 hours of running ashran, I dont know how your social life is, but mine easily accommodates losing 3 hours.

This quite true actually :/

[DarthMonk79]

Or maybe your incentive is being nice? Helping lower item levels toons can get everything from people joining your guild to even spreading the good word that such and such is a great dungeon/raider. Be it healer/tank/dps.... I'm seriously this is where many examples of how the community has gone to hell. It used to be people grouped for anything and everything, rather it dungeons, questing or raiding. Why'd they do this, it made it easier, its a online game and being social is part of the game, etc. The fact that as a over geared or high geared person you need incentive to bring someone lower geared other than the valor,etc that you currently get is sad.

[Deztru]

This quite true actually :/

PvP gear has less main stats and more secondary stats. Which means lower dps.

[kamuimac]

It takes 5-7 hours of /played time to get ilvl 700+ via pvp so no need to have no social life "what-so-ever" dont like pvp? your loss its easy and fast.

true but its abbysmal idea to force everyone inclyuding huge crowd who hates pvp into pvp just because its efficient - its simply retarded idea

[judgementofantonidas]

This idea was inspired by Jeffykin's thread on improving the group system. I don't believe that players short on time who want a fast instance run should be forced to carry players who aren't at their level, but what if you had some spare time and were willing to help bring those players along? Kind of like the carries sold in chat, but less obnoxious (ok, that description is my opinion) and more like the satchels you get for tanking and healing when there's a shortage. It's a slow night, I feel rested and patient and like taking on an extra challenge, why not help some newer players complete an instance and pick up some BoAs for my alts at the same time?

Example: Setting group finder for 690 and auto-accept nets you a satchel of useful goods.

sure. as long as it is the change at a 1% drop rate mount, or something a hell of a lot more compelling than catch up gear for my alts.

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Or maybe your incentive is being nice? Helping lower item levels toons can get everything from people joining your guild to even spreading the good word that such and such is a great dungeon/raider.

sorry. no. in my experience being overly helpful to those who refuse to help themselves only nets you more behind the curve players applying to your guild to be carried.

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it might be a better idea to tune the game better to begin with.

640 ilvl on my hunter and struggling to hit 25k.

Some mythic geared guy is in my LFR group at 140k and he's probably half watching dragon ball Z while he does it. I may as well not be here. its not fun for me, it isn't fun for him and its *bad design.*

if you are struggling to hit 25k then the guy who is not even trying is not the issue.

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No kind of system could help because the players are the problem.

It already starts with you talking about "carrying". As long as there's that kind of mentality always, it'll never work.

so what term to you feel would be more p.c. for describing someone willing to make up the performance difference of someone else who should not be in the same group as them?

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i think there should be strong incentives for this and can be improved. why would i invite some trasher 720 for my mythic dungeon? but if they make it so if u invite subpar 720 players for mythic dungeons i get a satchel which can have either some flavor mount(invisible) or heroic gear(not mythic, that would be too much).

explain sub-par 720 players? is this from the perspective of someone who is in the 740 range or just some underachiever wanting something to say on the forum?

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I'll throw out another example for consideration:

Ever queue for your daily heroic (random dungeon), get dropped into one that's mid-run, recovering from a wipe and somebody left group, and thought "oh no, I wonder what I've walked into this time..."? What if instead you could check a box when queuing to say "I'll join as a replacement for group that's wiping if you give me a satchel"? And spend an afternoon helping others that way. Might be fun.

i love getting dropped in on the last boss when i que for goody bags. i am never concerned as to "what I got dropped into" because essentially in a nut shell I do not need the other four players to complete it.

[clevin]

so what term to you feel would be more p.c. for describing someone willing to make up the performance difference of someone else who should not be in the same group as them?

This is where you go wrong. Mythic 5s and a 690 i-level are fine. You and others who want very highly geared people aren't carrying under geared people, you're grouping with people who have the gear appropriate for that content. YOU are the ones who are overgeared for the content. Will grabbing a 720 character vs the 690 slightly speed up things? Yeah by a couple of minutes.... but if you're that focused on getting through things ASAP you're no longer playing it as a game, you're doing it as a chore to be done as fast as possible. Think about that...

[GhostSkull]

I'm a little unsure what it means to "carry" someone. It seems to me that when special snowflakes complain about "carrying" they mean:
(1) I'm a tank who doesn't hold aggro because I'm racing the dps on the meters.
(2) I'm a healer who doesn't heal dps because I'm racing the other dps on the meters.
(3) I'm a dps aggroing everything in sight because I'm racing the dps on the meters.
(4) I have a higher than average ilvl, skill or competitive nature, therefore anyone even slightly below me on the meters is being carried.
(5) I have unstated personal goal of how fast the content should be done and anyone not trying to meet my goal is being carried.
(6) That guy just picked an herb and now my entire run is ruined!
(7) Anyone not carrying me means I'm carrying them and that's intolerable.
(8) I inspected that person and they don't have the gear I want them to have.
(9) I'm bored with killing these mobs and bosses, so now I'm attacking the players.
(10) I insist that others employ high risk strategies, but will kick them if something goes wrong.

Also, the ilvl check could would be exploited by swapping gear.

[judgementofantonidas]

I regularly see groups for Mythic dungeons asking for 720, 730+. Its madness! They drop ilvl 685 gear, I have 698 ilvl and yet have never been able to set foot in a Mythic 5-man. I only want to do it because I am interested in how hard they are, let alone trying to get in on a toon that could benefit from the gear!

Then I suggest you form your own group and accept the fact that you are going to need to work at competing the group, and then completing the dungeon because the groups you are auditioning for are obviously NOT there for the gear and NOT there to help YOU get geared easily.

[judgementofantonidas]

I'm a little unsure what it means to "carry" someone. It seems to me that when special snowflakes complain about "carrying" they mean:
(1) I'm a tank who doesn't hold aggro because I'm racing the dps on the meters.
(2) I'm a healer who doesn't heal dps because I'm racing the other dps on the meters.
(3) I'm a dps aggroing everything in sight because I'm racing the dps on the meters.
(4) I have a higher than average ilvl, skill or competitive nature, therefore anyone even slightly below me on the meters is being carried.
(5) I have unstated personal goal of how fast the content should be done and anyone not trying to meet my goal is being carried.
(6) That guy just picked an herb and now my entire run is ruined!
(7) Anyone not carrying me means I'm carrying them and that's intolerable.
(8) I inspected that person and they don't have the gear I want them to have.
(9) I've already killed these mobs and bosses, so now I'm attacking the players.

(1) if I am the top dps in a group, you do not have my aggro.
(2) if you are a dps taking excessive dammage bad on you. most five man content needs very little healing that is not the fault of the player
(3) if you are aggroing everything in sight and the tank is not ok with it, you will be on the outside looking in and carrying nothing.
(4) if your ilvl is that far below mine, bad on me for inviting you
(5) i run the content at my pace and if you cannot keep up, yeah. you are slacking
(6) if i was in que to pick herbs i would state that in the group message
(7-10) is where you prove you are just being silly.

[Pull My Finger]

so what term to you feel would be more p.c. for describing someone willing to make up the performance difference of someone else who should not be in the same group as them?

It's not about terminology or being P.C.

It's about being the guy that believes people should not be in the same group as them and obsesses over "performance differences". Jackasses who think they're "carrying" people because other members of the group "perform worse" than themselves. Clowns who act as if any contribution to the group's "performance" is nonexistent if it's below (or different than) their arbitrary idea of what this should be.

You're not "carrying" anyone, unless you're able to pull something off with less people than the content is intended for. And you're most certainly not "carrying" anyone when you're outgearing content by a laughable margin.

It's the kind of mindset that's more or less directly responsible for the segregation of the community, the neccessity of LFD/LFR and the watering down of the game on almost all fronts.

[judgementofantonidas]

Except for people with something called a life...

the old you don't have a life arguement.

I work full time 50 hours a week minimum as a welder
I work part time 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks during the summer as a National Guard member
I have a two year old, a six week old, and a wife who does not work in order to care for the kids that I provide for.
I have a $1300 a month mortgage, with associated utility, food, and clothing bills to pay.

I clear at least heroic every tier.


next excuse.

[GhostSkull]

(7-10) is where you prove you are just being silly.

I'm glad those three don't apply to you, but they certainly apply to others! Especially #9, the griefer.

[l33t]

No, we already have a very bad system with tank/healer satchel with a hefty sum of gold inside. Wanna know why? Let me tell you how these things are going on my server. Almost no tank or healer joins the que if there is no reward bag. Then, when the system understands that there is not enough tanks and healers, it opens the bag for, say, tanks. Dozens of tanks instantly join the queue, but healers still lack, because there is no bag, so all these people are waiting in already 15+ minutes queues. Then, after 10+ more minutes pass away, system understands that there is not enough healers and opens reward bag for healers. Dozens of healers join the queue and some groups are finally formed.

As a result: we have a system that instantly made queues from 5-10 minutes long to 30-40 minutes long - on a High populated server, in the evening's prime time.

As always, as soon as Blizzard tries to fix things that aren't broken, their "fixes" make whole situation a hundred times worse than it was before.

ps. To all people who are struggling with too "low" ilvls for instant invites into LFG system groups: why don't you join a friendly guild? Seriously, try it, WoW plays million times better with friends!

[keedorin]

IMO this is not good. If the rewards are gear then it will be horrible. Players who don't even know their class, have been lazy the whole expac, and just slow thinking are going to get chosen over people who actually put time into their character throughout the whole expac so they don't suck. Plus those players are going to get carried and I don't think Blizzard wants to force people to carry. People already want LFR to be removed and even blizzard thinks so a little. Having this kind of incentive for accepting lower geared players will surely cause this game to die. Stuff will just become too easy. Blizzard can't really fix laziness and not wanting to learn your class, that sounds like a personal problem to me.

Now if the rewards are fully cosmetic then I'm all for this idea. But this idea should only apply to Normal. Heroic and Mythic needs to be left alone.

Ilvl doesn't mean you're automatically good, although better gear does mean more damage . High ilvl means there's a good chance that that person is good. Doing mechanics right is really good but doing great dps and doing mechanics is excellent. Doing mechanics right is expected especially on boss fights that require a lot of dps. People with a low ilvl aren't always bad but the main reason people don't invite them is because they just can't do the dps. They don't care if you know the fight because it is expected that you know it.

I see plp around 690 queue up for H HFC and I always decline them. They know they haven't been doing much for the entire expac being lazy and expect to get carried. And then they have the audacity to go on the forums and say how I was elitist because I declined him, and how mythic raiders are douchebags and stuff. After that I just stopped inviting anyone below 715+. If you've been trying to gear up you will be over 715 Ilvl.

[judgementofantonidas]

They're only hard if people can't interrupt or stun. Ilvl is irrelevant if you can't do either of those. When I queue on my 725 Priest I avoid the try hard groups asking for 720+ Ilvl. I would rather play with less geared players that can do mechanics.

it makes zero sense at all to call a group that has no risk of wiping "try hard".

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This is where you go wrong. Mythic 5s and a 690 i-level are fine. You and others who want very highly geared people aren't carrying under geared people, you're grouping with people who have the gear appropriate for that content. YOU are the ones who are overgeared for the content. Will grabbing a 720 character vs the 690 slightly speed up things? Yeah by a couple of minutes.... but if you're that focused on getting through things ASAP you're no longer playing it as a game, you're doing it as a chore to be done as fast as possible. Think about that...

never said otherwise. and you are making my point that the "players" that are there for gear and are bitching that well geared players do not want to take them should start their own groups and leave us to farm our valor quickly. don't be expecting to be offered both.

[Justank]

If I understood op correctly then it's not a bad idea. Only thing that could make this impossible is that for example dungeons have different mechanics and even if you have high item level (let's say full raid heroic gear) even then you have chance to not complete your mission which is helping lower geared players to finish dungeon faster. And then I have to ask - do high item level players really can receive satchel with goods even if they have possibility not to do their best performance? If item level is so high that this high geared players is almost immune from dying then this could work. If this player is a threat to wipe a group then that's not correct to give some extra rewards.

Might be different for DPS and healers, but my Warrior is currently at 736 and I regularly tank Mythics/Heroics with PuGs just to help out. It's not uncommon for me to have to solo a boss from 20-50% health by myself in Mythics. I haven't played all the tanking classes this expansion, but I feel pretty confident saying any Mythic HFC geared tank can solo Mythic dungeons. It'd take too long to warrant doing it for any purpose other than 'lulz I did it' but it's certainly possible, and with that gear, yes you can easily carry a group.