How would the ilvl boosts compare to a flat 30% nerf?

[makketota]

Just curious if anyone have checked this out. Most people that are progressing hfc are around 740+ ilvl atm, while early kills seems to be about 25 ilvls lower. What kind of output increase are we looking at (roughly)?

[Raiju]

Hard to give exact since I don't play that much right now but generally a 25 ilvl is going to be more than 40% power increase.

[munkeyinorbit]

They use to say a tier was 20% inc and a tier being 15 ilvls or in today's world, a difficulty. So 1 ilvl inc across all of your gear is 1.5%. To equal 30% nerf, it would be 20 ilvls. So going from about 700ilvl in BRF to 740ilvl now, that would be an inc of 60%. There may be slight differences as some classes scale better than others. What you cannot do is compare people in the same tier with different gear because they have different skill levels. I would not be surprised if there is a 50-75% difference between 715 and 740 where it only warrants a 37.5% inc. I don't even know if 20% inc per tier still holds true anymore but a good place to look is your own logs.

[Dracodraco]

They use to say a tier was 20% inc and a tier being 15 ilvls or in today's world, a difficulty. So 1 ilvl inc across all of your gear is 1.5%. To equal 30% nerf, it would be 20 ilvls. So going from about 700ilvl in BRF to 740ilvl now, that would be an inc of 60%. There may be slight differences as some classes scale better than others. What you cannot do is compare people in the same tier with different gear because they have different skill levels. I would not be surprised if there is a 50-75% difference between 715 and 740 where it only warrants a 37.5% inc. I don't even know if 20% inc per tier still holds true anymore but a good place to look is your own logs.

Yea you really don't know how stats work, huh? Gear increases your stats exponentially. Check one of the blue posts that's on frontpage right now about secondaries in legion; It explains it quite well. 30% increase for 20 ilvls might be true for the first tier, but if it is, it's far more for the second tier.

In general, the 10 ilvls would probably be roughly equal to the 20% nerf we could otherwise expect (no raid had an instant 30% nerf - Firelands was 20%, MSV was 20%, HoF was 20%, TOES was 20%, TOT was 20% and so forth. The only times it reached 30%, or more accurately, 35% was the slowly building buff/debuff in ICC and DS).

[munkeyinorbit]

Yea you really don't know how stats work, huh? Gear increases your stats exponentially. Check one of the blue posts that's on frontpage right now about secondaries in legion; It explains it quite well. 30% increase for 20 ilvls might be true for the first tier, but if it is, it's far more for the second tier.

In general, the 10 ilvls would probably be roughly equal to the 20% nerf we could otherwise expect (no raid had an instant 30% nerf - Firelands was 20%, MSV was 20%, HoF was 20%, TOES was 20%, TOT was 20% and so forth. The only times it reached 30%, or more accurately, 35% was the slowly building buff/debuff in ICC and DS).

You do not know how exponential stats work. I will give you a guess. It's not pulling some random number out of your ass to satisfy your belief in a one nerf system.

Going by Blizzards numbers, entry raid gives you 1.5 x the damage. At the end it gives you 3x the damage. Thats 100% increase in damage between the values without any other points in the curve. They also said that main stats give you the same but spirit and armour are worth more. If we use DPS because we roughly know the numbers that would be about an increase of 1% of damage per ilvl on average.

This is where it gets tricky for you.
If we use 100 as the base entry damage, after 100 ilvls (640-740) the increase in damage is 268%. 90 ilvls is an inc of 242%. Because I am not a retard I dont just take 268 and minus it by 242 and get 26% like you probably have. I take 100 ilvl and divide by 90 ilvl. This is almost 1.105 which is an inc of 10.5%. If I use the future 10 ilvl we will get then the inc from 90 to 110 is 1.22 or 22%. If we want to use the numbers that we know from Blizzard than thats as good as it is going to get. I said 15% for 10 ilvls it was a bit off. Unlike you, I didn't just pick a random post, throw in an insult I thought was clever and just shat out a number.

[Raiju]

For reference that was 100% from secondary stats alone, when primaries are the large factor, and weapon damage/spellpower. This is all multiplicative.

[WarcraftMages]

It usually depends on who ask. If they have cleared it before the ilevel change, they will usually tell you the ilevel nerf made it too easy without checking anything because they want it to be true. It might be best to run a simulation and see for yourself. I suspect not all classes respond to it similarly. Or tanks etc. might respond differently.

There are also other effects, the ring is probably the biggest contribution in certain encounters in terms of what differs between Method's first kills and later kills, and not the ilevel. You won't hear that a lot because almost all guilds killed the bosses with rings.

Also the heirloom trinkets of tanks are kinda important lately.

[munkeyinorbit]

For reference that was 100% from secondary stats alone, when primaries are the large factor, and weapon damage/spellpower. This is all multiplicative.

Take your tier helm. It has 306 of something at 695 and 352 at 710. 15 ilvl difference. Each one of those something does 1 extra something damage. I cant remember but 5 of them might be a DPS. Take those numbers and get the % inc. 352/306=1.1503 or 15% inc. Dont believe in magic? Use the 710 one vs the 725 one. Same shit. The main stats are included like I said. Weapon damage will be the same and so will spellpower on weapons.

[Keashaa]

Compare two logs from Zakuun (single target boss) with an (almost) identical setup and 10 itemlevel difference. Look at the kill time and here we go.

[Deleted]

10 iLvl are 10% more stats. 10% more stats >> 10% more Dmg.

The thing is: All the stat gains are multiplicative. The same reason/math why you stack CDs as DD, are applied to these stat gain.

Also it is way easier to reach some breakpoints, without sacrificing other important stats.

Over all I think the 10 iLvl Upgrade are roughly 20-30% for DDs(Strongly depending on class and spec). For Tanks not so much, because stacking migation isn't great.

[kamuimac]

Just curious if anyone have checked this out. Most people that are progressing hfc are around 740+ ilvl atm, while early kills seems to be about 25 ilvls lower. What kind of output increase are we looking at (roughly)?

you are not only comparing apples to oranges but you do it wrong - the nerf was straight 10 itlvs and upgrades on ring from fel thingy rest was nothing but gear already aviable in the instance just like in any expansion before that -

[WarcraftMages]

Compare two logs from Zakuun (single target boss) with an (almost) identical setup and 10 itemlevel difference. Look at the kill time and here we go.

That's not a good method considering it depends on how well they knew the fight at the time and what the setup is. There were lately some kills with 18 burst DPSes, and 1 tank and 1 healer. Not only those would skew the results, they would be probably doable before the more ilevels.

It's best to run a simulation on a single spec and on a per spec basis thereafter.

[Overdispersion]

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18H.html vs http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T18M.html

T18HC profiles don't have leg. ring so you might have to add a bit dps to it.

[Rawrzillasor]

Each one of those something does 1 extra something damage.

thats some pretty quality math you have there bud

[Deleted]

10 iLvl are 10% more stats. 10% more stats >> 10% more Dmg.

The thing is: All the stat gains are multiplicative. The same reason/math why you stack CDs as DD, are applied to these stat gain.

Also it is way easier to reach some breakpoints, without sacrificing other important stats.

Over all I think the 10 iLvl Upgrade are roughly 20-30% for DDs(Strongly depending on class and spec). For Tanks not so much, because stacking migation isn't great.

Did you even read the above?

10 ilvl are (1.01^10-1)*100% more stats

[Dracodraco]

You do not know how exponential stats work. I will give you a guess. It's not pulling some random number out of your ass to satisfy your belief in a one nerf system.

Going by Blizzards numbers, entry raid gives you 1.5 x the damage. At the end it gives you 3x the damage. Thats 100% increase in damage between the values without any other points in the curve. They also said that main stats give you the same but spirit and armour are worth more. If we use DPS because we roughly know the numbers that would be about an increase of 1% of damage per ilvl on average.

This is where it gets tricky for you.
If we use 100 as the base entry damage, after 100 ilvls (640-740) the increase in damage is 268%. 90 ilvls is an inc of 242%. Because I am not a retard I dont just take 268 and minus it by 242 and get 26% like you probably have. I take 100 ilvl and divide by 90 ilvl. This is almost 1.105 which is an inc of 10.5%. If I use the future 10 ilvl we will get then the inc from 90 to 110 is 1.22 or 22%. If we want to use the numbers that we know from Blizzard than thats as good as it is going to get. I said 15% for 10 ilvls it was a bit off. Unlike you, I didn't just pick a random post, throw in an insult I thought was clever and just shat out a number.

First off - what insult? you didn't account for gear scaling; I have to assume you omitted it for some reason, right? You get more stats the higher your item level goes, which means that your damage increases faster aswell (not to mention breakpoints that individual classes have that makes it very hard to generalise an increase). This is known as an "exponential" scaling, which is why we get outrageous numbers at the end of an expansion. It's also why there's no such rule of thumb as "20% for a tier".

I didn't put any claim to what the mathematical formula for DPS increase by the +10 ilvl gives us right now - I said that it'd probably be around 20%, because realistically, that's what we've seen when looking at logs with higher levels but similiar timeframes. I based nothing on math - I based it on what we've actually seen in game, because basing it on math is borderline retarded with things such as bloodlust uptime, haste plateus and crit/multistrike softcaps being hit messes with anything you might try to calculate.

You have to remember that the numbers posted on the frontpage are purely ballpark numbers given to show how the secondaries interact together. This means something like:

Crit at 1.30 multiplier, MS at 1.25, vers at 1.15, haste at 1.40, mastery at 1.05 = 1.30*1.25*1.15*1.40*1.05 equalling a 2.75 multiplier to base damage.

It means nothing when mainstat and weapon multipliers are not included, it's an explanation for how it works at the moment. Likewise, you said "each tier is a base of 20%", which is what I wanted to call out; That's not how it works. Each tier has exponentially more stats, which means that a set amount of item levels (15) will not provide a set damage increase. Use logs from this expansion to show it - here's the top 10 performers for the Patchwerk-fight of the tier, Fel lord, set at 720, 730, and 740 item level ranges.

720 https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...hip&bracket=13
Top 10 at an average of ~95K.

730 https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...hip&bracket=17
Top 10 at an average of ~132K.

740 https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...hip&bracket=20
Top 10 at an average of ~192.9K.


Now, these are the TOP performers in those brackets; we can assume they have all been blessed by RNG, and that they all know how to play their classes. There's 10 of them averaged out, so even if the very top ones are unbelieveably lucky, they are dragged down by the average. This is as close to an estimation as we'll ever get.

As you can see, 720->730 increases the damage by 38%. It gets even further blown out of proportion at 730-740, at a 46% increase.

Some of this is probably the ring getting levelled; You can't expect 720 players to have a fully levelled ring (and post-item level buff, 730 can be achieved with a non maxed ring aswell. Before the buff, everyone at 730 probably had a maxed ring).

But this is about as close you can get to a proper estimate of "How much did the ilvl buff really do for us". And when taking a closer look, we're both MILES off target because we aren't accounting for faster kill times, allowing higher uptimes under procs and bloodlust. Due to WCL currently bugging out (when I try to search for fights in specific time limits, such as between 30 seconds and 2 minutes, it will only accept the first timeframe - it ignores the second, so I get "fights between 30 and 30 seconds") I can't get more accurate results.

Needless to say, factoring in exponential growth of levels over tiers (and even inside tiers) is neccessary for a precise number, and factoring all multipliers in is 100% needed.

you are not only comparing apples to oranges but you do it wrong - the nerf was straight 10 itlvs and upgrades on ring from fel thingy rest was nothing but gear already aviable in the instance just like in any expansion before that -

I'd argue the upgrades from fel thingy isn't part of the same nerf because it came out during the tier. It was part of the gearing path. Most people had maxed rings on their mains when VP upgrades came out.

[Deleted]

As you can see, 720->730 increases the damage by 38%. It gets even further blown out of proportion at 730-740, at a 46% increase.

But this is about as close you can get to a proper estimate of "How much did the ilvl buff really do for us". And when taking a closer look, we're both MILES off target because we aren't accounting for faster kill times, allowing higher uptimes under procs and bloodlust. Due to WCL currently bugging out (when I try to search for fights in specific time limits, such as between 30 seconds and 2 minutes, it will only accept the first timeframe - it ignores the second, so I get "fights between 30 and 30 seconds") I can't get more accurate results.

You can't compare the last two at all. The fight durations between 730 and 740 are to huge. In 740 it is an average duration of 1m 6,8s. In 730 it is 2m 3s.
Buff uptime:
Bloodlust 740: 67%
Potions 740: 75%
Bloodlust 730: 36%
Potions 730: 41%

It is like comparing a try with godlike procs and one without any. This doesn't even include the ring.

[Astynax]

Ilvl boost means the player needs to actually perform to get more out of the benefit.
Nerf to the boss means the player can continue to be a shitter and get full benefit.

I'd rather keep more skill in the game rather for how faceroll it already is. There's already lots of people at 720+ doing 50k dps, we don't need to tank the game down to their level

[Dracodraco]

You can't compare the last two at all. The fight durations between 730 and 740 are to huge. In 740 it is an average duration of 1m 6,8s. In 730 it is 2m 3s.
Buff uptime:
Bloodlust 740: 67%
Potions 740: 75%
Bloodlust 730: 36%
Potions 730: 41%

It is like comparing a try with godlike procs and one without any. This doesn't even include the ring.

Which is why I said it's inaccurate due to speed but I can't gather the information required with the tools available. That being said, it proves my point perfectly; More gear means faster kills means higher uptime on buffs means bigger DPS increase.
It's true that the extra increase from going 730->740 might not be due to the raw stats on gear; But it is a 46% increase nonetheless, because the extra gear affects buff uptimes positively. And in the end, the ultimate result is what matters; Not that it's gained through the stats on the gear.

Ilvl boost means the player needs to actually perform to get more out of the benefit.
Nerf to the boss means the player can continue to be a shitter and get full benefit.

I'd rather keep more skill in the game rather for how faceroll it already is. There's already lots of people at 720+ doing 50k dps, we don't need to tank the game down to their level

Not true. They're the same thing.

If a mob has 1M health, and my damage (while performing subpar) is 100K, then it'll take me 10 seconds to kill it.
If you add more gear, it just scales my subpar performance up - a good player (as those in my previous examples) are getting 35% or more out of 10 ilvls. Lets say our bad player gets 25% because of higher item levels - making him do 125K.
It now takes him 8 seconds to do 1M damage, without changing playstyle.
It's the exact same scenario as reducing the boss' HP by 20%, lowering it to 800K. End result is a 8 second mob.

More gear is a passive buff; your skill level is a variable. However the same player with more gear is going to do more damage than he did with less gear, simply because the gear is better but the skill hasn't changed.

[Astynax]

Not true. They're the same thing.

If a mob has 1M health, and my damage (while performing subpar) is 100K, then it'll take me 10 seconds to kill it.
If you add more gear, it just scales my subpar performance up - a good player (as those in my previous examples) are getting 35% or more out of 10 ilvls. Lets say our bad player gets 25% because of higher item levels - making him do 125K.
It now takes him 8 seconds to do 1M damage, without changing playstyle.
It's the exact same scenario as reducing the boss' HP by 20%, lowering it to 800K. End result is a 8 second mob.

More gear is a passive buff; your skill level is a variable. However the same player with more gear is going to do more damage than he did with less gear, simply because the gear is better but the skill hasn't changed.

Not quite

If a mob has 1M HP and gets nerfed to 700k it's 30% nerf and will take someone who does 50k dps 30% less time for him to kill it, and same for a person who does 10k dps which would take him 30% less time.

Someone good can use that +15ilvl can do 30k dps more to kill that 1M mob faster, whereas someone else with the same +15ilvl might only get 5k dps more to burn the 1M HP mob. Not too unrealistic either since there are lots of shitters who are doing something like 50k DPS at 720 when others were doing 40k dps in BRF at 690.