Chronicles lore spoilers

[Therougetitan]

Doesn't say anywhere that they are planet sized

Mountain peaks and oceans. They are literally the planet.

There's the picture of Sargeras sleaving a planet too.

[shoc]

Doesn't say anywhere that they are planet sized

"When the titans finally awoke, they did so as living worlds. Cosmic winds howled across their gigantic forms, bodies shrouded in a cloak of stardust, skin crisscrossed with silvery mountain peaks and oceans shimmering with latent magic."


What about that isn't implying that they are planet sized? They literally have mountains and oceans as skin.

[Qualia]

Also pretty sure that the titans are dead dead. If not, why couldn't Ra'den do anything with the spark he had? we've killed a few keepers as well (maybe just one) and found out that Tyr commited suicide, and never heard/seen anything about sparks from the other titans.

I wouldn't say that. It's true that the Pantheon are dead now - but whether they are dead dead (which I take means what it usually means, forever gone and can't be restored / brought back in any form) is up in the air. At least, Vol. 1 of the Chronicle didn't state or imply that explicitly. Ra's conclusion might have been wrong.

There isn't any differences between the Keepers when it came to the souls of the Pantheon trying to possess them. It's just that Ra was the only one who realized the Pantheon was being killed by Sargeras, so he extracted the fragment of Aman'thul from his body. That doesn't mean other Keepers don't have similar fragments, just that they aren't aware of that - as the Chronicle stated "but they were unaware that the last remnants of their beloved makers had been infused in their very bodies". After Ra extracted the fragment of Aman'thul - he stored it in a mountain vault for preservation and then went and meditated on what he learned. So why didn't Ra do anything? The answer might be simple - he didn't know how, or he hadn't gotten to that yet before Lei Shen defeated him. The Keepers aren't omnipotent.

We saw that the fragment of Aman'thul's soul was at least able to grant Wrathion his memories and "possessed" him for a short moment. That was after being passed from Ra to Lei Shen to Wrathion, and Lei Shen were certainly dead when Wrathion ingested his heart, so the hosts (Lei Shen /Tyr / Loken) being dead might not affect the soul inside it. It's possible that the souls inside them (or soul, we don't know if Norgannon went inside Loken or Mimiron) continue to sleep / lay dormant inside the dead Keepers' corpses until now.

All in all, I wouldn't say that the Pantheon are guaranteed to be still around, but I wouldn't be sure that they are dead dead either. At the moment, it can go both way. What do Blizzard want with those fragments of the Pantheon? They might make it that the Pantheon are dead and gone, but their fragments of power are left so we can one day inherit their powers to fight against Sargeras. It's also possible that they preserved those fragments in order for us to attempt to recover them back to their former glory in the future. It could go either way. Note that the "fragments" were referred to by different terms in the Chronicles, so it's hard to say whether they are souls or just merely powers and memories.

[shoc]

I wouldn't say that. It's true that the Pantheon are dead now - but whether they are dead dead (which I take means what it usually means, forever gone and can't be restored / brought back in any form) is up in the air. At least, Vol. 1 of the Chronicle didn't state or imply that explicitly. Ra's conclusion might have been wrong.

There isn't any differences between the Keepers when it came to the souls of the Pantheon trying to possess them. It's just that Ra was the only one who realized the Pantheon was being killed by Sargeras, so he extracted the fragment of Aman'thul from his body. That doesn't mean other Keepers don't have similar fragments, just that they aren't aware of that - as the Chronicle stated "but they were unaware that the last remnants of their beloved makers had been infused in their very bodies". After Ra extracted the fragment of Aman'thul - he stored it in a mountain vault for preservation and then went and meditated on what he learned. So why didn't Ra do anything? The answer might be simple - he didn't know how, or he hadn't gotten to that yet before Lei Shen defeated him. The Keepers aren't omnipotent.

We saw that the fragment of Aman'thul's soul was at least able to grant Wrathion his memories and "possessed" him for a short moment. That was after being passed from Ra to Lei Shen to Wrathion, and Lei Shen were certainly dead when Wrathion ingested his heart, so the hosts (Lei Shen /Tyr / Loken) being dead might not affect the soul inside it. It's possible that the souls inside them (or soul, we don't know if Norgannon went inside Loken or Mimiron) continue to sleep / lay dormant inside the dead Keepers' corpses until now.

All in all, I wouldn't say that the Pantheon are guaranteed to be still around, but I wouldn't be sure that they are dead dead either. At the moment, it can go both way. What do Blizzard want with those fragments of the Pantheon? They might make it that the Pantheon are dead and gone, but their fragments of power are left so we can one day inherit their powers to fight against Sargeras. It's also possible that they preserved those fragments in order for us to attempt to recover them back to their former glory in the future. It could go either way. Note that the "fragments" were referred to by different terms in the Chronicles, so it's hard to say whether they are souls or just merely powers and memories.

Do you think Wrathion now possesses the fragment of Aman'thul's soul, since he ate the heart?

Here's the full excerpt of the Lei Shen story in Chronicle, I've bolded the important part.


"Before he was the Thunder King, Lei Shen became obsessed with finding out why their “god,” the titan keeper Ra, had abandoned the mogu thousands of years before. Deep in the peaks of Kun-Lai Summit, Lei Shen discovered a titan complex that would come to be known as the Mogu’shan Vaults, where Ra had been dwelling. Lei Shen confronted Ra, demanding to know why the keepers had abandoned them. Ra transported himself and Lei Shen to the Thundering Mountain, a sacred place where no mogu dared tread, and revealed to Lei Shen the horrible truth which had sent Ra into seclusion. He showed Lei Shen a fragment of Aman’thul’s soul, which revealed to him that the Titan Pantheon was long dead, killed by Sargeras when the Burning Legion first formed. All that remained of the titans was that fragment of Aman’thul’s soul. Ra expected for Lei Shen to give into the despair like he had, but Lei Shen instead answered that if the Pantheon was dead, then he would continue their work.

Before Ra had a chance to react, Lei Shen attacked him and chained him with magical bonds, taking Ra’s power over thunder and storms for himself. Lei Shen returned to the Vaults, where he found the Engine of Nalak’sha. He used the engine to reverse the curse of flesh on the mogu, and it would later be used to create new slave races such as the grummles and saurok. Establishing his palatial city at the peak of the Thundering Mountain, Lei Shen began a three thousand year rule.

Lei Shen believed that flesh races were inherently inferior to the titan forged, and so he had the mogu enslave the other native races of Pandaria. As word of the Thunder King and his empire spread, Zulathra, the leader of the great Zandalari troll Empire of Zul, became interested in the mogu, especially the Thunder King’s godlike powers.

Zulathra proposed an alliance between the Zandalari and mogu, though both planned to betray the other once they were no longer useful. However the zandalari and mogu proved to be such excellent allies that plans of betrayal were slowly forgotten. The mogu taught the Zandalari arcane magic, and used their flesh shaping to keep Zulathra alive for thousands of years. They promised him and all trolls full immortality once the Engine of Nalak’sha’s power was completely understood. In return the Zandalari shared all their knowledge of the outside world with the mogu, who felt duty bound to remain in Vale of Eternal Blossoms and surrounding lands.

3,000 years into his rule, Lei Shen and Zulathra decided it was time to expand the mogu/zandalari empire. He turned his attention to the lush jungles known as Uldum, where the Forge of Origination rested. As the self-appointed successor to the Pantheon, Lei Shen felt it was necessary for him to control the forge.

Lei Shen greeted the local tol’vir and promised them a place of power in the mogu empire in exchange for submitting to his rule. The tol’vir were disgusted by the mogu’s enslavement of the “lesser races” and what Lei Shen had done to Ra. Lei Shen warned the tol’vir that he would have the forge whether they agreed or not, and by refusing they were sentencing themselves to death. After all, the tol’vir would not stand a chance against the combined mogu and Zandalari armies.

The tol’vir knew that was true, but still chose to defy Lei Shen. When Lei Shen and Zulathra arrived in the dense jungles of Uldum with their massive armies, they found only a small number of tol’vir guarding the Halls of Origination. Inside the Halls, the majority of the tol’vir people activated the re-orgination device, which would scour all life from Azeroth. They had modified it though, so that only the surrounding area would be re-originated. Lei Shen, Zulathra, and their armies were killed instantly, as were the brave tol’vir outside the Halls who had acted as a distraction. Uldum was scoured of all life, transforming the region into a barren desert. The tol’vir emerged from the Halls and repopulated, while life slowly returned to the deserts in places such as the Vir’naal river delta.

The mogu retrieved Lei Shen’s body and entombed him within Kun-Lai Summit until the day the Zandalari would make good on their promise to resurrect him. Unfortunately, the death of Zulathra sent the Zandalari into chaos, and their empire collapsed. The mogu empire suffered a similar fate, as their clans fell to infighting and left them weak. Less than a thousand years later, the pandaren uprising began.


TL;DR Lei Shen absorbed Aman'thul's power, and declared himself the successor to the Pantheon.

[Frontenac]

Before the Chronicles, the Pantheon was described as the elite sect of Titans. This implied that there were more Titans that were not part of the Pantheon. I wonder if it is still the case. If so, that means that the Pantheon may be destroyed, but that other Titans could still become allies or organize into a new Pantheon.

[Qualia]

TL;DR Lei Shen absorbed Aman'thul's power, and declared himself the successor to the Pantheon.

Yes, he did. That's why I said if Wrathion was able to gain Aman'thul's fragment from Lei Shen's heart after he (Lei Shen) was dead, then Tyr / Loken being dead might not matter much. It's possible that the Pantheon souls inside these two are still there, laying dormant inside their broken bodies. It was to address Chipskunk's concern about why we haven't seen / heard anything about the spirits even after we killed Loken and Tyr suicided.

Before the Chronicles, the Pantheon was described as the elite sect of Titans. This implied that there were more Titans that were not part of the Pantheon. I wonder if it is still the case. If so, that means that the Pantheon may be destroyed, but that other Titans could still become allies or organize into a new Pantheon.

It might no longer be the case. Aman'thul were nurturing the world souls, and after they awakened, they joined him in his search and formed the Pantheon. Although, I guess one can argue that there might have been new Titans raised after the Pantheon were formed and it just weren't mentioned. Still, for now, there wasn't any mention about other Titan yet.
(although with that stated, it makes their actions in regards to Azeroth seem irresponsible. If Aman'thul could nurtured and raised his siblings before, why couldn't they have spared some more time for Azeroth)

[Deleted]

RIP lore

they can keep their voidlords

[Kokolums]

I'm betting they retcon the Pantheons death and say the Pantheon actually DID see it coming and chose to allow Sargeras to murder them because it would set in motion a certain chain of events that brought about a favorable outcome.

[Wyrt]

I'm betting they retcon the Pantheons death and say the Pantheon actually DID see it coming and chose to allow Sargeras to murder them because it would set in motion a certain chain of events that brought about a favorable outcome.

Nah, I like the version where Sargeras just spammed fel fire at them until they got bored and let him kill them.

[Mormolyce]

I wonder if they'll finally explain the origin of the dark crystal that was forged into Ashbringer.

Seems tantalisingly Naaru-esque.

Maybe it's Naaru poo.

Before the Chronicles, the Pantheon was described as the elite sect of Titans. This implied that there were more Titans that were not part of the Pantheon. I wonder if it is still the case. If so, that means that the Pantheon may be destroyed, but that other Titans could still become allies or organize into a new Pantheon.

I wonder if any Titans were successfully born from world souls without the Titans finding them...

[Kokolums]

I wonder if any Titans were successfully born from world souls without the Titans finding them...

Well...it had to happen at least once, since there had to be a first Titan.

[Caerule]

The "Avatar" theory makes a lot of sense, in how Sargeras can walk worlds. If the other Titans can try and upload their soul to Keepers, it's only natural to conclude Sargeras can transfer his soul, or part of his essence possibly, to lesser vessels.

That would probably mean the Avatar of Sargeras that Aegwynn defeated was the equivalent of a Keeper, boosted with fel corruption, in maximum potential strength. Considering Keepers have been raid bosses in the past, I'd say the Avatar of Sargeras would make for a possible and challenging raid boss, this expansion. If they manage to reanimate it, of course.

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As for the precognition discussion before, I think people overestimate the power of Titans and Nozdormu to see through time. Even if the Titans were alive when the Aspects were empowered, it was clear that they knew the world would face an Hour of Twilight. But considering it required the power of all Aspects to stop, it's unlikely they knew one of the Aspects would be responsible. Deathwing's corruption seems more one of the many Old God plans to counter-act this safeguard by the Titans. We only barely managed to counteract their plans.

And Nozdormu's fate is even more unclear. He's seen the moment of his death, yes. Doesn't mean he knows all the circumstances, or that the Titans saw it. It's clear that future-sight isn't everything. And it's not even clear if Murozond was from our timeline. Nozdormu spent some time lost, trying to find out why in some timeline he ended up becoming the seemingly mad and evil Murozond. And we still have no idea how this happens, and if it'll happen in the true timeline. If it's his true fate. Heck, even Nordormu may not know for sure. His death vision could be seen through his own eyes, meaning he wouldn't even see what state his body was in.

[Mormolyce]

Well...it had to happen at least once, since there had to be a first Titan.

Well, post-the formation of the Pantheon. Or are they too good at detecting their fellow Titans?

World souls are a concept with a lot of possibilities IMO. Imagine what might happen if the birthing process goes wrong - not necessarily from Old God corruption, but all manner of other things...

[Krazzorx]

My question is: at what point did WoW's story start to be written with this "clearer" lore backing it? For instance, was ToT made when it was already decided that the Pantheon was dead?

[Wyrt]

My question is: at what point did WoW's story start to be written with this "clearer" lore backing it? For instance, was ToT made when it was already decided that the Pantheon was dead?

I'm pretty sure this wasn't even fully developed for WoD. Legion will probably be the first expansion with this lore as its backing.

[shoc]

My question is: at what point did WoW's story start to be written with this "clearer" lore backing it? For instance, was ToT made when it was already decided that the Pantheon was dead?

ToT referenced the Pantheon being dead, but it wasn't held up by any substantial evidence.

Claiming that "The entire Pantheon had been murdered by Sargeras due to his fear of the Void Lords corrupting a Titan World-Soul using the Old Gods." is one hell of a statement to derive from a single line of Wrathion's dialogue.

[steelballfc]

have this book spoke about Ny'alotha
or did blizzard hinted Ny'alotha in future books !?

[Qualia]

have this book spoke about Ny'alotha
or did blizzard hinted Ny'alotha in future books !?

"No" for both.

[TyrianFC]

My #1 wishlist question someone should ask at the WoW Lore Panel for Blizzcon this year: WHAT/WHO IS ELUNE?

[steelballfc]

My #1 wishlist question someone should ask at the WoW Lore Panel for Blizzcon this year: WHAT/WHO IS ELUNE?

A : Ahem ! Elune is the Moon Goddess

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"No" for both.

'Sigh"
Y'knath k'th'rygg k'yi mrr'ungha gr'mula.