Nuins Overhaul - I.am.RET: Pursuer and Anti-Melee

[Deleted]

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Caution: Please keep in mind that this is an alpha version and that numbers should be subject to later tuning.
The numbers used in this overhaul are purely for showcase and to give a near prediction of intended damage and healing values.
The design of the basic Toolkit and Talents, aswell as their synergy and personal feeling for the spec, are the important part of this overhaul. As the complete contribution is by far too long, I'm forced to split it up (so sorry for multiposting :P ).
This post will contain the Prologue aswell as an outlook of the rearranged talent tree and the changes to the basic toolkit, while the second post will include detailed changes to the talents. I intend to put my oppinions & intentions - and ultimately my objectives why exactly I changed certain things - in a third post directly behind the overhaul for insight and a more thorough understanding.
Be my guest to read them aswell if you're interested!
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Prologue

Hello guys,
at long last I finished the overhaul I announced some days ago. I tried to put my main focus on retaining the basic design from Blizzard and building up on it, emphasizing the core flavor and feeling of Retribution, and make a variety of playstyles with slight differences possible so players don't take a talent out of necessity, but of personal taste and their own determination to do so.
Please think of abilities, which are neither named in this overhaul nor listed under the changes, as carried over without being altered. I'd be glad to receive comments containing your personal thoughts, opinions, aswell as reviews regarding my changes, and hope this overhaul may help in creating a Class design which Blizz is interested in and - quite more importantly - we're in love with!

Red color means: Personal notes I put in to make it more understandable or indicate on something.
Blue color means: Updates on tooltips once a certain ability is acquired.

I hope you'll enjoy reading through (no sarcasm) - and now....be prepared! (nah, you're not...)


Talent Tree Outlook

Tier-1 (Lv15) - Damage Ability branch: [1]Execution Sentence [2]Scarlet Onslaught [3]Hand of Argus
Tier-2 (Lv30) - Crusader Strike branch: [1]The Fires of Justice [2]Crusader Flurry [3]Zeal
Tier-3 (Lv45) - Crowd Control branch: [1]Fist of Justice [2]Repentance [3]Blinding Light
Tier-4 (Lv60) - Blade of Justice branch: [1]Virtue's Blade [2]Blade of Wrath [3]Divine Hammer
Tier-5 (Lv75) - Damage Ability branch: [1]Consecration [2]Holy Wrath [3]Beacon of Retribution
Tier-6 (Lv90) - Personal Utility branch: [1]Divine Intervention [2]Dauntless Charger [3]Just Cause
Tier-7 (L100) - Finisher Ability branch: [1]Word of Glory [2]Seal of Light [3]Divine Tempest


General

- Divine Steed (Lv90 Talent) -> Removed, now baseline for Paladin (Lv87 Baseline).

• Changes: None

- Judgment (Lv3 Base) -> Effect for Ret:

• Judge an enemy, dealing (1+150% of Spell Power) Holy damage, increase the healing of Word of Glory by 0%, and causing the target to take 0% increased damage from your Holy Power generators if Seal of Light is active, and 0% increased damage from your harmful Word of Glory, Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm for 6 sec.

Specialization

- Eye for an Eye (Lv15 Talent) -> Removed, now (Lv28 Spec).

• Changes: Shrouds the Paladin in light to counter harmful magical effects, and magic damage taken, back at the caster for 150% of their original effect or damage. Doesn't remove already existing effects and ends if more than 40% of your maximum health has been countered. Lasts 6 sec. 1 min 30 sec cooldown. [Note: Physical like Spell Reflection, can't be dispelled or spellstolen. You still take damage, you just counter it for 150% back.]

- Greater Blessing of Kings (Lv42 Spec) -> Now learned at Lv66. [Note: Usable in Rated PvP, can only be Mass Dispelled]

• Changes: Blesses all party and raid members within 50 yards, granting them barriers which absorb up to (Attack Power * 30) damage, evenly split over the number of allies. After 15 sec, you deal (100% of Attack Power) Holy Damage for every barrier fully depleted to your pursued target.
  Allies receiving this effect will become Blessed and be unable to benefit from a Greater Blessing again for 5 min. 4 min cooldown.

- Greater Blessing of Might (Lv44 Spec) -> Now learned at Lv64. [Note: Usable in Rated PvP, can only be Mass Dispelled]

• Changes: All party and raid members within 50 yards deal 10% additional damage as Holy Damage. Lasts 15 sec.
  Allies receiving this effect will become Blessed and be unable to benefit from a Greater Blessing again for 5 min. 4 min cooldown.

- Greater Blessing of Wisdom (Lv1 Spec) -> Now learned at Lv62. [Note: Usable in Rated PvP, can only be Mass Dispelled]

• Changes: Increases every distributed and received healing by 10% for all party and raid members within 50 yards. Lasts 15 sec.
  Allies receiving this effect will become Blessed and be unable to benefit from a Greater Blessing again for 5 min. 4 min cooldown.

- Mastery: Divine Judgment (Lv78 Spec)

• Judgment increases the healing of Word of Glory by 7%, damage taken from your Holy Power generators by 7% if Seal of Light is active, damage taken from your harmful Word of Glory, Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm by an additional 14%, and increases the damage done by Judgment by 28%.

- Pursuer of Justice (Lv46 Spec) -> NEW!

• Grants you Pursuer of Justice, building up 20% additional movement speed over 15 sec against your pursued target. Resets if you hit your pursued or another target and doesn't work on targets more than 55 yards away.
  Additionally, at all times movement-impairing effects may not reduce you below 70% of normal movement speed.
  
  • Pursued: Your singletarget attacks mark your target as Pursued. Can only be placed on one target at a time. Lasts 30 sec.

- Shield of Vengeance (Lv26 Spec)

• Changes: Creates a barrier of holy light that absorbs up to (350% of Attack Power) damage and refreshes itself to full strength every 15 sec, even if fully consumed. When the barrier is consumed, all damage absorbed is dealt back to your pursued target as Holy damage. Lasts 45 sec. 2 min cooldown.
  If the barrier is dispelled or spellstolen, the caster will be incapacitated for 3 sec.
  [Note: 2 Buffs are generated - barrier and generator (like Sacred Shield). Only the barrier can be stolen or dispelled.]

_

Talents

Tier-1 (Lv15)
- Execution Sentence (Lv15 Talent) -> HoPo cost decreased to 0, 5.0% of base mana.

• A hammer slowly falls from the sky, dealing (800% of Attack Power) Holy damage after 10 sec.
  If Execution Sentence is dispelled, the dispeller is silenced for 3 sec.

- Scarlet Onslaught (Lv15 Talent) -> NEW!, in place of Eye for an Eye (now baseline). Melee Range, Instant, Requires Paladin (Retribution), Requires Melee Weapon.

• Chasten your enemy with a searing strike, dealing 200% Physical damage and 100% Holyfire damage. Increases the critical strike chance of your next Judgment by 35%.
  Scarlet Onslaught has a chance to activate when you generate Holy Power.

- Hand of Argus (Lv15 Talent) -> NEW!, in place of Consecration (now Lv75 Talent).

• Your Hammer of Justice now deals (200% of Attack Power) physical damage to it's target. Deals quadruple damage to targets permanently immune to stuns.

Tier-2 (Lv30)
- The Fires of Justice (Lv30 Talent)

• Changes: Your Crusader Strike has a 25% chance to cause your next Holy Power spender to cost 1 less Holy Power. Also increases damage done by Crusader Strike by 5%

- Crusader Flurry (Lv30 Talent)

• An instant strike that causes (70% of weapon damage) as Holy damage. Grants 1 Holy Power. 3 Charges.
  Replaces Crusader Strike.

- Zeal (Lv30 Talent) -> 90% Physical damage, 2 charges, 4 sec recharge, stacks cleave AND haste 2 times.

Tier-3 (Lv45)
- Fist of Justice (Lv45 Talent) -> Ret tooltip:

• Whenever you cast Judgment or spend Holy Power, the remaining cooldown on your Hammer of Justice is reduced by 5 sec.
  In addition, increases the distance of Hammer of Justice by 10 yards.

- Repentance (Lv45 Talent) -> Instant, 45 sec cooldown, no damage

• Forces an enemy target into meditation, incapacitating the target over 60 sec. Usable against Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, Humanoid and Undead.

- Blinding Light (Lv45 Talent) -> 4 sec duration, 60 sec cooldown.

Tier-4 (Lv60)
- Virtue's Blade (Lv60 Talent)

• Blade of Justice strikes 1-3 additional times, each hit dealing 33% of the original amount.
  Only the initial hit generates Holy Power.

- Blade of Wrath (Lv60 Talent) -> 95% of Weapon damage as Holy damage.

Tier-5 (Lv75)
- Consecration (Lv75 Talent) -> was Lv15 Talent, in place of Seal of Light (now L100 Talent).
- Holy Wrath (Lv75 Talent) -> HoPo cost decreased to 0, no range, 3 sec cast (Channeled), 15 sec cooldown.

• Fires waves of Holy Bolts at all [visible] enemies within 8 yards every 1 sec for 3 sec, causing (Attack power * 0.7) Holy damage per wave and dazing them 1 sec. For every Holy Power you have stored, up to 3, 1 additional wave is fired. This doesn't consumes any Holy Power.
  [Note: Can't be interrupted, HoPo decreases time it takes before wave is fired: 0/3HP = 1,0/0,5s per wave]

- Beacon of Retribution (Lv75 Talent) -> NEW!, in place of Word of Glory (now L100 Talent). 2.5% of base mana, 15 yd range, Instant, 3 sec cooldown.

• Imbues the target with a Beacon of Retribution for 12 sec. Limit 1 target.
  Your Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm trigger the release of a wave of searing light, dealing (105% of Attack Power) Holy damage to the target and (80% of Attack Power) Holy damage to all other enemies within 8 yards.

Tier-6 (Lv90)
- Divine Intervention (Lv90 Talent) -> [Note: Works in rated PvP]

• Reduces your Divine Shield cooldown by 40%. In addition, any attack which would kill you instead reduces you to 20% of your maximum health and grants you an absorption shield equal to 25% of your maximum health for 15 sec.
  This effect cannot occur more than once every 2 min.

- Dauntless Charger (Lv90 Talent) -> NEW!, in place of Divine Steed (now baseline). 7,5% of base mana, Instant, 35 sec cooldown, Requires Paladin (Retribution)

• Summons your Paladin Mount to dash forward 20 yards, knocking enemies down while doing so, and ride for 4 sec, increasing your movement speed by 35%. Useable while indoors or in combat. Replaces Divine Steed.
  [To clarify: This talent trades your Divine Steed in for a ability that "catapults" you 20 yd forward and knocks enemies you move through for a split second down while doing so. No stun.]

- Just Cause (Lv90 Talent) -> NEW!, in place of Blaze of Light (now Lv4 PvP)

• Your Blessing of Sanctuary, Blessing of Freedom and Blessing of Protection also grant you all their effects for half the duration if cast on an ally. In addition, the damage dealt back by your Shield of Vengeance is increased by 15%.

Tier-7 (L100)
- Word of Glory (L100 Talent) -> in place of Blessings of Justice (Removed). 3 Holy Power, 30 yd range, Instant, Requires Paladin (Retribution).

• A powerful burst of Light, which is improved by Judgment, heals a friendly target for (700% of Spell Power).
  Autoattacks have a chance to make Word of Glory free, and usable on enemy targets for 12 sec, causing [(700% of Spell Power)*1.4] Holy damage or (700% of Spell Power) healing, further increased by your mastery.
  
  • Praise the Sun: Your next Word of Glory is free, and usable on enemies. Lasts 12 sec.

- Seal of Light (L100 Talent) -> in place of Equality (Removed, maybe bring it back as a legendary?).

• Imbues you with holy energy to increase your haste and critical rating by 5%, and enhance the damage enemy targets take from your Holy Power generators during Judgment. Lasts 45 sec.

- Divine Tempest (L100 Talent) -> NEW!, in place of Mass Judgment (now [partially] Major Artifact Trait).

• Increases the damage of Divine Storm by 20%
  Templar's Verdict has a x% chance to make your next Divine Storm free and deal 75% more damage for 30 sec.
  
  • Emerging Storm: Your next Divine Storm is free and deals 75% more damage. Lasts 30 sec.
    [Note: Echo of the Highlord doesn't mimic the 75% damage increase, but it mimes the free attack.]

PvP Talents

- Jurisdiction (Lv4 PvP) -> Removed, baked in Fist of Justice (Lv45 Talent)
- Blaze of Light (Lv4 PvP) -> was Lv90 Talent, in place of Jurisdiction

• A quick and powerful heal, healing a friendly target for [1+450% of Spell Power).
  For 8 sec after you kill an enemy that yields experience or honor, your next Blaze of Light will be increased by 50%, instant, and has 100% increased critical strike chance. Replaces Flash of Light.

Artifact Traits

- Divine Tempest (Major Artifact Trait) -> Removed, damage baked into Divine Tempest (L100 Talent)
- Martial Law (Major Artifact Trait) -> was L100 Talent, in place of Divine Tempest (Removed)

• Ashbringers Judgment is absolute, affecting all enemies within 8 yards of the target you judge.

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So this is it.

I hope you liked my suggestions and didn't develop eye cancer while reading the massive wall of text
The post beneath will just contain thorough information about my current opinion on Blizzards Ret Build, about my ideas and the thought process while developing them and this build - and of course - what I think of them!
You don't need to read that crap if you don't want to (really, you don't. But I feel honored nonetheless if you do!).
But please make sure to post your opinion about my ideas and whatever suggestions you come up with to improve it - just check beforehand if it could probably sound op - something like "Yo, Charger 15 sec cooldown or it's bad!" doesn't really help that much. After all - we may want a Dev to look over it don't we

Regarding readers that can post on the alpha boards: If you liked it, please by any means tell the other testers about my ideas or post them there, so more can contribute to it. I'll gladly hand over the source script, so PM me

--- Also pls check out Cletis redesign for Ret, it has some nice and nostalgic ideas for Ret. ---
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My thoughts are mine to share

Hello again,
the fact you're reading this must mean you're interested to learn where this whole bunch of ideas were coming from - either that or you're probably an extreme masochist and just want to suffer (or satisfy yourself) a bit more. Well, be my guest then.


Your thoughts about: planned state of Ret (in Legion)
For me, a class spec has a "good design" if it's basic toolkit enables the spec to perform it's intended role without utilizing talents (i.e. alpha Arms Warr). If this is the case, talents can be used to add personal flavor and complexity to the spec, players have to choose - these are positive decisions. This holds true even if the spec is intentionally designed with a certain "flaw" or weakness.
On the contrary, if a spec's basic tools are badly implemented or lacking, players tend to take talents to fix this, but these are no real choices and players feel forced into specific talents to perform their role. This is even worse if either all talents in a row fix a different problem, or a specific talent is definitely stronger as the other 2 - hence a player is denied to make decisions that suit his taste. This is bad design - and this is the current state of Ret in Legion.

...which brings us to:

Why did you wrote this whole overhaul?
Simple - because I LOVE my spec and try to start a bit of an "uproar" with it. After we finally become the Ashbringer in Legion, it just feels strange seeing Ret in the state it is on alpha - even more centered on utility and support than damage despite being a dps spec. It's like the devs give us candy that looks delicious from the outside (Ashbringer), but then say "not for you, give it to the other kids!". Players mentioned the spec and talents feeling dull, slow, boring...but Blizz has it's own opinion on this topic and so far nothing besides the fact we can now support even better has changed.
Anyway, dunno if they want to force the role of "the Buffbringer" on us or if they simply lack creativity - design 24 dps specs to be unique is a hard task - but Ret doesn't look good right now. That's fact.
I just finally WANT to be viable and fun to play for one whole expansion - so I hope for this overhaul to get approval through you, the community, and with it the attention of the devs. If it's crativity they lack, here you go.

And how did you create it?
I went through a multitude of threads on MmoC and the US & EU boards - this took me a couple days btw - analysing the opinions of the community. Concerns about mobility, loss of "historical" abilities, being forced to bandaid-fixing via talents, and (recently a concern) only dealing good dmg via HP spenders during Judgment were the main concerns.
This, the intend of Blizz to make mobility our main weakness, and the preliminary design of the devs where the foundation of my overhaul - after all, would they even think about taking a concept if it revokes everything they planned so far?

But you implemented mobility! Even a kind of gapcloser...
True, but at a price - I'll talk about talents later. For starters, I simply planned to give Ret just a flat speed increase like UH DKs have - but this would be to plain. Remember, we are not intended to run fast - more so to relentlessly pursue our enemy. Pursuing!
As I love "Dark Souls II", I instinctively had a vision of the "Pursuer" -> whatever beating he took, emerging time and time again to get me eventually. My intention was to give Ret a fixed "warranty-time" to reach a target that works around, but don't reduce our weakness. Thus "Pursuer of Justice" was created - and the "Pursued" debuff works good for the recoil of Shield of Vengeance aswell!

Mentioning SoV: Why all the other changes, like E4E basic?
We're intended to be slow, but also to take a beating. What counters us atm are mobile classes, but our hard-counter are classes with dispels - and even more Mages because of Spellsteal and their magic damage. It's not a good PvP-design if a class is superior to you just because of this trait, so I changed the way SoV works in generating 2 buffs like Divine Shield: the barrier buff that is dispellable, and the generator buff which can't be stolen or dispelled - after all, it's our main tool for damage mitigation and a core of our fantasy. To re-counter caster classes a bit more, I designed E4E to deal back more magic damage than you take, and made the damage of SoV generally applicable on ranged. This way, our hard-counter shifted to simply ranged hunters, which I'm totally fine with.

And the changes to Greater Blessings?
Right now they simply invoke to just juggle them between players burning up burst cds - after vanilla I don't intend to play buffbot again. The way I'd want them is more of a raid cd like "Bloodlust", but weaker - they should be usable in Rated PvP to encourage giving a spot to Ret, but not mandatory. This way, they would also fit the fantasy better:
Our Prot and Holy brethren instill courage and hope through their presence (Aura) like Uther, while we rally our allys and inspire them to exceed their limits like Alexandros Mograine did. I'd absolutely love to see this implemented.

Before the talents, why are there so few changes to PvP talents?
I got fed up with typing? *chuckle*
No, the reason is I don't want to change everything. Blizzard has just started testing PvP, so nobody can say if the talents stay that way. There would many changes already if my suggestions would get implemented, so no point in changing PvP aswell. Just the one talent is enough.

Alright - Talents! FIRST row?
Many like Execution Sentence, so just the damage change as outlook - it's the slow & steady burst option of the Tier. Scarlet Onslaught - proc/activation ability. I juggled with the idea naming a few abilities in regard to established paladin orders, it suited well with the mixed damage so duh. 3rd in line is Hand of Argus - which I really dig - named after the draenei order. It gives HoJ a reason to be used in boss fights and has great synergy with Fist of Justice.

SECONDs anyone? (pun intended)
I didn't do much other than adjustments. One thing to notice might be Crusader Flurry, which I just gave a kind of own identity between the other 2. Deals purely Holy damage and is the "combo" ability of the Tier. Works esp. well with Blinding Light.

THIRD time's a charm
Fist of Justice moar! range! Cd can even be reduced if HP is scarce, suits Hand of Argus really well and is esp. interesting for PvE Players in Raids. Repentance is instant again, but doesn't deal damage. Good against healers in arena. Blinding Light is finally useful and works well with the various talents that deal Holy damage.

On all FOURS (I shut it now)
Rets doesn't stack crit, even with Virtue's Blade effect. Haste and Mastery is far too important, so the talent isn't good. I changed it to a kind of multistrike because of that. Aside of that, I adjustet damage values to be on par with each other - minus the HP generation of course. Blade of Wrath was especially underperforming.

Tier 5 - NOW it gets interesting!
This Tier is interesting, it gives choices how your toon deals AoE damage. Consecration is more passive and for people that don't want to interact with AoE too much. Beacon of Retribution could be nice for movement intensive fights, fast-dying groups or few boss adds. Holy Wrath - I'm a bit proud of my creativity with the mechanic (sry for self-praise). Will work good against bosses as a filler or strong group adds. The daze is for moving adds or PvP and only holds for the duration, it's not intended as a reliable slow. All talents are viable to each other, just check it mathematically^^

Tier 6
Mostly interesting for PvPers. The fact you can choose only one of it means great decision-making. Divine Intervention is somewhat like the Sacred Shield from Cata, granting you a survival tool without burning your Divine Shield. Dauntless Charger converts Steed into a kind of gapcloser but doesn't give you much more mobility. Just Cause is absolutely great for support, as you can support your allies more frequently without worrying about yourself too much, and the bonus to the damage SoV deals is a "nice to have". Overall great choices I think.

Tier 7 - The finishing line
Perhaps the Tier I spent most of my time on. Divine Tempest was easy since many wanted EDS back. It's on purpose that only TV can activate it, because otherwise it would be the go-to AoE choice - my intent is to make DS usable for singletarget fights. Seal of Light, the maintenance choice of the Finishers. Because of the movement increase it seemed necessary for PvP, and without a benefit from mastery the HP spent felt kinda wasted. The hardest to invent however was Word of Glory - I absolutely wanted a option designed to improve healing, yet granting a bit damage aswell so it wouldn't be discarded from the start. First idea was adding Blaze of Glory and a flat percent damage increase for TV, but it quickly felt boring between the other 2. I discarded Blaze of Glory as a talent, just improved Flash of Light and gave it a chance to be used for damage, and named it "Sunwalkers Praise" to give a bit credit to the tauren paladins - this fitted well with it's Buff "Praise the Sun". It was better, but lacked synergy with the new mastery Blizz just implemented. After that, I changed the spell to Word of Glory and it was good to go. I think it's a interesting and versatile pick.

Artifact Traits - why you had to change Mass Judgment!!!
Because, as a talent, it was simply too strong - and the other talents in the row were bad, so it would be picked most often - which remember - is bad design. If it will be picked regardless, why not make it an Artifact Trait so anyone can get it? The duration increase however would have been too much, it decreases the value of haste by a large margin. I personally like the idea of having short burst phases, it fits Ret - and with sufficient time in Legion, we'll stack enough haste to make our CDs more comfortable anyway. I scrapped Divine Tempest for it because of it's "skillshot design". The devs imagined Ret to be more centered on melee, so it seemed off - I myself don't understand why they put it in exactly.
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Well, I hope this "journey through my mind" gave you a fair bit of insight in the design process.

Thank you for reading, and please leave a comment with your opinion here!

[Ulthane]

So far I really like what I see and your takes on the greater Blessings. I'll follow up when I get home.

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On a side note I wish more people who advocate for Ret would get alphas.

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Especially a fan of Scarlet Onslaught, and Holy Wrath, Divine Tempest. The way I'd love to built is a zealot style and that theme is in there. In fact in a way you managed to combine a bunch of themes at once in here. Vindicator, Silver Hand, Scarlet, Blood Knight, Sunwalker. I see things that can be associated to them all meaning you took time doing this. My suggestions were to capitalize on support and reflective damage if it were shoved down our throats but a build like this is near ideal. Personally I'm ignoring numbers but thinking of the feel and I like how I could build a Zealot.

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Only thing is the Greater Blessings become purely situational so I feel there should be a way to lower the debuffs or use them more often.

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Shield of Vengeance I love.

[Deleted]

I really hated how to perform decent in legion atm ,we need the band aid provided by our talents and even with them , there still seems to be a bit of a downtime to the rotation and Im not a fan of that at all. I have to admit , I love all of these ideas and would like them to be added to the game. It provides everything we need , dps , utility , movement/gap closers and enhances our rotation. Now we just need Chilton and blizz dev team to listen to reason.

[Ulthane]

I really hated how to perform decent in legion atm ,we need the band aid provided by our talents and even with them , there still seems to be a bit of a downtime to the rotation and Im not a fan of that at all. I have to admit , I love all of these ideas and would like them to be added to the game. It provides everything we need , dps , utility , movement/gap closers and enhances our rotation. Now we just need Chilton and blizz dev team to listen to reason.

My thoughts exactly.

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Seriously if I wasn't at work I'd have so much more to say. But I love the thought process on everything ermehgerd

[Deleted]

Thanks @ all for the warm words and feedback up till now. Feels good that the working hours get esteemed

Keep it coming, you can also ask guild mates or friends what they think about it. If enough people like it we may have a real chance getting the devs to take a look.

[Ulthane]

Thanks @ all for the warm words and feedback up till now. Feels good that the working hours get esteemed

Keep it coming, you can also ask guild mates or friends what they think about it. If enough people like it we may have a real chance getting the devs to take a look.

My biggest thing is that Ashbringer shouldn't define what Ret is. Ret should be defined before getting the artifact. It should compliment and enhance us. Your idea does this perfectly. By taking various aspects of Ret and bringing it together in a fashion that includes all.

[Deleted]

I still dislike upkeep buffs like SoL, but you present it as an option, and you make word of glory actually not be a joke.

Very well thought out. I aprove of this. If only we lived in a world where we could have something like that.

Edit: Oh i want to add that what i really like are all the options presented in your talent tree, something i have tired myself saying the legion tree is direly missing.

[Deleted]

I still dislike upkeep buffs like SoL, but you present it as an option, and you make word of glory actually not be a joke.

Very well thought out. I aprove of this. If only we lived in a world where we could have something like that.

We need an arabian prince to buyout blizzard and fund all these decisions/changes :P

[Mcsauce]

100% behind this! great job

[Ulthane]

So looking at everything its great as it is, amazing. Though there could be a different view to look at, one thing I have brought up many times is a revamp to Sanctity of Battle and Crusader Strike not having a cooldown, other rets have brought this up in the past and the idea would synergize amazing with your build. In addition a little bit of an Artifact idea to better mimic the original idea behind it.

Abilities:
-Crusader Strike: No cooldown, generates Holy Power.
-Blade of Justice: Doesn't generate Holy Power (A thought could still allow it to.)
-Sanctity of Battle: Merged into Sword of Light. Crusader Strike now lowers your cooldowns by .5 seconds increased by haste. In addition you get healed for a % of the damage you deal.
-Greater Blessings: Blessed is now mutually exclusive to the Blessing. So instead you get Wisdom, Might and Kings. The Paladin does not get affected by the Blessing debuff. (That way you have a cooldown to pop for a healing event, mitigation event and a burst damage event. Also these all look so damn fun all together but I would also say that with Sanctity of Battle even though you bring something to the table for support you have a way to use it for yourself also on a minor consistent manner. Your idea is amazing with it and is fine but this is just a different take on it.


Talents
-Execution Sentence: Have it hit instantly and apply Judgment. Maybe lower the damage a little since instant damage. (I just feel that a Paladin is going to bring that Divine Judgment and they have an ability like that they are going to just smite them down hard.)
-The Fires of Justice: I would say same as before but instead of 5% more damage it deals additional damage as Holy/Fire damage.
-Crusader Flurry: Replaces Crusader Strike, 4 second cooldown. Crusader Strike hits three times, this generates Holy Power each hit and procs Sanctity of Battle.
-Zeal: Either have it deal Holy Damage or keep the same.

Artifact
-Echo of the Highlord: Affects all Holy Power consumers.
-Ashes to Ashes: Your Holy Power consumers launch a bolt of Righteous Fire at the enemy dealing damage and additional holyfire damage over x seconds.


That honestly is about it, your tree is perfect as it is or it can be swapped to have Crusader Strike on the same weight as Judgment. But im actually in love with those ideas, personally though id rather have the ability to use Greater Blessings on myself even if the raid can't be affected by it. But I get the debuff because if there was no debuff there would be Paladin stacking and that isn't fair or fun to others. Though I would say make the Debuffs exclusive to the Greater Blessing because in that event everyone will always demand Might for the burst phase. Meaning you can react to the heavy damage phase from boss, a time where healers need help and then you can help with damage. And then you yourself not affected by your debuff means that you can do it again for yourself later adding something nice to Avenging Wrath. With Sword of Light/Sanctity of Battle the down time on your abilities isn't as bad. Regardless this thought on it or just how you have as it is amazing.

Personally if I were to build this I would go this build because I love my Scarlet Crusade.
-Scarlet Onslaught
-Zeal
-Blinding Light
-Blade of Wrath
-Holy Wrath or Beacon of Retribution (Hard choice, both fun)
-Dauntless Charger or Just Case (looks fun!)
-Divine Tempest

Just, that is the theme I see for a Scarlet in there but you have touched on everything. Seriously, id play this so hard. And then its like I feel like a Ret paladin actually worthy of holding Ashbringer instead of having to power up the blade to define what I am. The amount of care put into this and thought is what I feel Blizzard is lacking right now especially with the off taste comments in the blue posts. Seriously, great job on this. I was making posts that could turn what Blizz was wanting/showing into something viable if possible but what you have here is tons better than what I was posting and this needs to be what Ret looks like.

[Felrane]

This is by far 110% better then what blizzard has for Ret on Alpha. I hate the current talent tree. Seems no other class is forced into talents to even attempt to do Aoe. Watching Testers constently stop and switch talents in between bosses and packs was super annoying. Consecrate should be baseline like it used to be if they want to keep a talent for it it should enhance not force us into it for any sort of aoe.

As far as PVP talents they are almost just as terrible as all the PVE talents and need to be looked at. So many sucky passives or %boosts to current abilitys. They dont change Ret gameplay at all like they are supposed to. Or atleast cover what weakness thats Ret are suffering from. For 11 years paladins have been the class that you cant keep off you with cleanse/emanicpate/freedoms/constent boosted speed. Seems that they are just punching bags now with burst every 2 min. Prot is so much better then Ret in all aspects of PVP it makes me sick.

[Ulthane]

Also dont see Divine Hammer on there, what is the third talent for the Blade of Justice row?

@Felrane I 100% agree with you there. This is bloody phenomenal.

[cletis1234]

Nice work man. There are some things that I wouldn't 100% be on board with, but the majority of it is way better than the current design for Legion. The only criticism I have is that I fear your ideas might make us too powerful. There's alot of stuff going on in your design, and while it all sounds amazing, I think that all the extra goodies you gave would push us over the top. But I still like all the ideas you have, and they fit very well in the context of our "class fantasy" and to that end, our "class design".

Not to sound too snarky, but I had my own Legion revamp ideas in the works and I want to post it on here too. I'll make my own seperate thread on it, but I'd love to hear what you think about it. I think we defeinitely need more people like you getting creative with Ret.

[Reghame]

I still dislike upkeep buffs like SoL, but you present it as an option, and you make word of glory actually not be a joke.

Very well thought out. I aprove of this. If only we lived in a world where we could have something like that.

Edit: Oh i want to add that what i really like are all the options presented in your talent tree, something i have tired myself saying the legion tree is direly missing.

word of glory is intended to be a trade off of damage for healing, the only reason why it blows ass right now is because it heals less than you damn flash of light. If it were to heal for a proper amount for the cost it has the talent would be fine but right now it's ratio is abysmal.

[Ulthane]

Way i see it though there was the suggestion I posted if they decided to go the route of buff bot with Greater Blessings, if they go all in with that and crap like equality then the tweaks I showed are something that should happen or around the ballpark of that. However if they were to drop that idea a few tweaks to what this guy suggested and BOOM its all gravy.

As I said, CS gotta be off that cd.

[thatfireguy]

Impressive stuff, Nuin. I've been following the other threads, and I feel this is a good summary/compromise of the various opinions. I like the idea of adding in some procs again; I wasn't looking forward to the removal of dp/eds, as I really enjoy proc-based gameplay.

[ruiizu]

There's a few ideas I like, such as Holy Wrath and Divine Intervention using Lay on Hands, but I don't necessarily follow some of the ideas. The idea of the "pursuer" isn't exactly how I'd handle it, and I have my doubts about how well the mechanic itself would work in practice. I'm very much against group cooldowns, as I prefer single target things in the BoP vein.

I also strongly believe abilities that use Holy Power other than Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm should be very powerful. Reg has mentioned as much, but Word of Glory needs to be very powerful to ever see use. It needs to be the opposite of in Live. I actually like Execution Sentence using Holy Power in Legion because it means it can be really powerful as it has to outdo Templar's Verdict significantly.

I did like the idea of Shield of Vengeance refreshing though. It's an interesting thought.

[Reghame]

There's a few ideas I like, such as Holy Wrath and Divine Intervention using Lay on Hands, but I don't necessarily follow some of the ideas. The idea of the "pursuer" isn't exactly how I'd handle it, and I have my doubts about how well the mechanic itself would work in practice. I'm very much against group cooldowns, as I prefer single target things in the BoP vein.

I also strongly believe abilities that use Holy Power other than Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm should be very powerful. Reg has mentioned as much, but Word of Glory needs to be very powerful to ever see use. It needs to be the opposite of in Live. I actually like Execution Sentence using Holy Power in Legion because it means it can be really powerful as it has to outdo Templar's Verdict significantly.

I did like the idea of Shield of Vengeance refreshing though. It's an interesting thought.

If i had it my way word of glory would have a cooldown and be a lesser version of revival on live, but thats just me

[Selund]

These are some really great ideas Nuin. In particular how there is choice in single target, AoE, and burst AoE, which then again flavor your play-style and favor your own play-style in turn.
#firekalganhirenuin

Quickly though, with your ideas, would you prefer to keep the mastery the same as the "placeholder" in legion, or move to something that would benefit some of these abilities? I.E. Something more original than a Colossus smash?

[Deleted]

In fact in a way you managed to combine a bunch of themes at once in here. Vindicator, Silver Hand, Scarlet, Blood Knight, Sunwalker. I see things that can be associated to them all meaning you took time doing this.

I got inspiration from the various paladin orders, hence why I named a few talents after some of them - would have been more but it didn't really fit xD The thing is, Legion is not only about us as the Ashbringer, it's about the return of a single conglomerate of Paladins - it's about unity. I wanted to emphasize this in our talents.

I still dislike upkeep buffs like SoL, but you present it as an option, and you make word of glory actually not be a joke.
Very well thought out. I aprove of this. If only we lived in a world where we could have something like that.
Edit: Oh i want to add that what i really like are all the options presented in your talent tree, something i have tired myself saying the legion tree is direly missing.

Personally I don't like maintenance abilities either, but there are more than a few that does - they should have their option aswell
Making the talents vary in between was an important fact for me aswell. I like having different options that are themed around a main theme, as do many Players. And this world may come true if we push towards it. As much as Blizz wants their designs to be liked - we are the customers, and no company says "no" if a huge chunk of their customers says "no" in return, it's bad for business.

So looking at everything its great as it is, amazing. Though there could be a different view to look at, one thing I have brought up many times is a revamp to Sanctity of Battle and Crusader Strike not having a cooldown...
*snip*

It really would. I read your original suggestion as I devised this overhaul - but remember, I wanted my changes to be in line with the basic design of Blizzard to increase the chances of implementation, if there may be any. Regarding the greater blessings, if the "blessed" debuff wouldn't affect the paladin himself, chances would be high some players just slap them on themselves regardless of his allies - I intended them for group utility. It's a fine line between "barely legit" and "overpowered", and I esp. tried not to cross it in this concept. Oh, and regarding Divine Hammer - it's the same as ever, carried over without changes. In fact, Divine Hammer was the base I adjusted the damage of the other 2 talents on.

The only criticism I have is that I fear your ideas might make us too powerful. There's alot of stuff going on in your design, and while it all sounds amazing, I think that all the extra goodies you gave would push us over the top.Not to sound too snarky, but I had my own Legion revamp ideas in the works and I want to post it on here too. I'll make my own seperate thread on it, but I'd love to hear what you think about it. I think we defeinitely need more people like you getting creative with Ret.

How so? I'd really want to have feedback on this topic cause I tried diligently not to cross the line, but with constructive feedback I may alter and adjust the concept to pass. The one thing I had in my mind looking over the finished concept was that it may cut out the other specs talents in terms of fun choices you can make. Regarding your own revamp, by any means please do! I'd love to read it - it's not that I think no one could do a better job than me

word of glory is intended to be a trade off of damage for healing, the only reason why it blows ass right now is because it heals less than you damn flash of light. If i had it my way word of glory would have a cooldown and be a lesser version of revival on live, but thats just me.

As I had the talent with BoL/FoL in mind, I intended to make WoG a heal cd for the PvP tree aswell. Just changed it because of the mastery issue mentioned in my thoughts.
WoG would be alright as only a heal - if it's good at this - I give you right on that. But most players would discard it for a damage talent instead, because Ret is a dps spec after all - most often it would only be useful in certain conditions, at PvP for example or soloplay. My intention was to try and make every talent appealing to a broad mass of players, and to accomplish this WoG was in need of an option to be used to deal damage. This way it not only became the heal choice of the talents, but a activation mechanic for autoattacks aswell - which Ret lacks dearly atm.

The idea of the "pursuer" isn't exactly how I'd handle it, and I have my doubts about how well the mechanic itself would work in practice. I'm very much against group cooldowns, as I prefer single target things in the BoP vein.
I also strongly believe abilities that use Holy Power other than Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm should be very powerful. Reg has mentioned as much, but Word of Glory needs to be very powerful to ever see use.

Everyone has their tastes, it's absolutely alright if you like a single target version more - I just thought if I do a overhaul anyway, why not try and add a bit RBG viability in it aswell. The greater Blessings seemed the best option for this, because it's utility only we deliver. Regarding the "Pursuer" buff, as mentioned in my "way of thoughts", I just gave Ret a flat 15% movement increase - this would've dismantled our chosen weakness far too easy. I juggled many ideas around, as bringing back Emancipation back and so on, but in the end the outcome seemed to be the best way giving us mobility without reducing our weakness - that is for PvP. As Steed is baseline in this imaginary build, there's already an option for PvE - further developed by "Dauntless Charger" if one likes to.
I tried to find a way making the damage WoG deals on par with our other spenders, and came up with the idea to give "Praise the Sun" a coefficient only applicable on damage. This way it's heal won't be overpowered, but it's damage can be tuned to rival or even surpass other spenders - it's like old Holy Shock in reverse, and the fact it has a condition to be used this way for a single use makes it okay to deal more damage. The only thing to keep watch on would be to make it balanced around the other 2 talents, dealing overall a bit less damage but providing heal as tradeoff.

Quickly though, with your ideas, would you prefer to keep the mastery the same as the "placeholder" in legion, or move to something that would benefit some of these abilities? I.E. Something more original than a Colossus smash?

Thanks for the praise, but I don't want his job really xD If Ret is fine that's enough.
Mmh, I'm not dicontent with the new mastery. Up until now, Holy Power and our spenders are things that define us, and the new mastery is in-tune with this. The talents I designed are just there to fill our "gaps", provide flavor and choice and to be used as fillers.


Thanks for the great constructive feedback up till now
I'd just love to hear feedback from the ones that don't like the overhaul aswell, as I'm interested in what exactly they don't like about it. Every constructive feedback is good feedback, regardless of your opinion.