why are they still retaining cross spec themed talents

[dreaderus]

I still see a row of frost talents as a fire mage. so frustrating, need fire equivalents graphically even if it is just that.

I am certain that the frost/arcane folks would like that as well!

[pleblius]

There has been a lot of fairly heated discussion about the topic in the past couple months.

Short answer: it doesn't waste development time on redundant skills and is an unnecessary change at the moment.

Most people would prefer to see more diversity in talent functionality between specs (or at least I assume that's true, I can't speak for everybody), but we're still waiting on that.

[Deleted]

Like Iceblock?
You'd get a Lavatomb instead. Same spell but the graphics are different.

They just don't want to waste time on things like that and adding other spells and effectively taking Iceblock from the other two specs would cause more discontent not less.

[Obelisk Kai]

I still see a row of frost talents as a fire mage. so frustrating, need fire equivalents graphically even if it is just that.

I am certain that the frost/arcane folks would like that as well!

Basically I'd like more spec diversity, but if they go that route I want them to give us spells that are meaningfully different rather than simple reskins.

A lot of our talents are merely flavor variations of the same idea if you look close enough.

Also, some of the shared abilities are so useful and iconic no Mage wants to part with them. Our survivability row is shared, but I doubt anyone wants to give up any of the available options (maybe shimmer...IF Ginvis is it's replacement)

[Raugnaut]

Like Iceblock?
You'd get a Lavatomb instead. Same spell but the graphics are different.

They just don't want to waste time on things like that and adding other spells and effectively taking Iceblock from the other two specs would cause more discontent not less.

I have to say that rather then Lavatomb, Molten block (Cho talent in Heroes) would be better for Fire - Provides immunity, and a AoE damage burn to targets around the mage.

[dreaderus]

I have to say that rather then Lavatomb, Molten block (Cho talent in Heroes) would be better for Fire - Provides immunity, and a AoE damage burn to targets around the mage.

They could use existing animations. for example i simply cannot use talents that cover me in ice or snow as a fire mage, i hate it.

Ice block is ok but why not a wall of fire or something that does the same thing.

Pure fire, pure frost, pure arcane

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

There has been a lot of fairly heated discussion about the topic in the past couple months.

Short answer: it doesn't waste development time on redundant skills and is an unnecessary change at the moment.

Most people would prefer to see more diversity in talent functionality between specs (or at least I assume that's true, I can't speak for everybody), but we're still waiting on that.

Um, only takes about a good half an hour to 50minutes to design a new ability using old animations

[Imnick]

It's a shame that work doesn't end at the design stage.

[Difuid]

I still see a row of frost talents as a fire mage. so frustrating, need fire equivalents graphically even if it is just that.

I am certain that the frost/arcane folks would like that as well!

I disagree. I like things that make some sense (like using ice to block arrows instead of igniting them with a wall of fire) over the tunnel visioned focus on a singular element.

[Polarthief]

Like Iceblock?
You'd get a Lavatomb instead. Same spell but the graphics are different.

They just don't want to waste time on things like that and adding other spells and effectively taking Iceblock from the other two specs would cause more discontent not less.

But don't worry, because "Mage's class fantasy has always been amazing... in our eyes".

I know is uses up some resources, but after the last few expansions of being neglected... I think we could use some love, even if it's just a color swap.

[Erolian]

Making different graphics for the exact same spell is a waste of time. Removing functionality so a few people can be relieved of their OCD related to spell effect colors is a poor gameplay choice.

[Elegiac]

Making different graphics for the exact same spell is a waste of time.

Aesthetics are a hugely important part of the gameplay experience, point in fact.

[Seneca]

I think that this issue (which, to simplify, and to give it a word, could be called "homogenization", but don't get tricked by its bonds) is worsened, a lot, by many variables. It is way more complex than it looks, imho, so, before giving any suggestion, I think that we should analyze ii fully. I am listing all the influential variables which come to my mind:

1) First of all, our specs don't have many baseline spells to begin with. Let's take fire for example. Excluding DPS spells (Fireball, Pyroblast, Inferno Blast, Combustion, Scorch, Flamestrike), the only "non-DPS only" spells left in the fire arsenal, which are not shared with frost (so Invisibility, which is shared with frost (and, in a sense, even with arcane if we want) is excluded) is Dragon's Breath. So, baseline wise, the only non-DPS spell which a fire mage has over a frost mage is Dragon's Breath.

2) Secondly, even if we include DPS spells, even if they have different names and different graphics, the majority of them do the same thing in the same way. For example, both fire and frost spam their 2ish sec cast time fillers (Fireball/Frostbolt) waiting for the instant procs (Pyroblast/Ice Lance/Frozen Orb) and the 2-3 min CD spell (Combustion/Icy Veins).
There are some differences, for example fire has to use Inferno Blast before the proc and frost, thanks to Water Jet, has a reliable way to generate Fingers of frost every 25 sec, but the basics are the same (spam the fire/blue filler, use the procs, wait for the CD). Comparing this to, let's say, affli locks and destru locks, or MM hunters and Survival hunters, can make the picture clearer.

3) Basically linked to the point above. The specs feel similar because they do not represent the "basic theme/design philosphy behind them" very well.

The issue here is that arcane fails at being a resource (mana) management spec, fire fails at being a dot based spec and frost fails at being a pet based spec. What I mean with "fails at being" is that the specs don't feel fully developed in their own theme/design philosophy/mechanics. It ends to "spam the fire/blue filler, use the procs, wait for the CD" when arcane could be a fully mana management spec (rather than our mana being an AB bar, let alone the fact that our mana is not linked in anyway with aspects which are beyond DPS) fire could be a fully DoT based spec (which doesn't necessarily mean applying 3 dots and spamming the channeled filler) and frost a, let's say, pet based spec (which should not be, imho, the frost theme, but, hey, a wrong (subjectively speaking) theme is better than no theme at all, that's sure).

4) The spell distribution, by a balanced (numbers) and flavor (themes) point of view, is not well done.

a)(Number wise) Why does arcane have 2ish frost spells but 0 fire spells? Why does fire have a tons of arcane spells and 2ish frost spells? Why does frost have a tons of arcane spells and 0 fire spells?

It feels like this:
arcane = fully specialized arcane mage, lowly specialized frost mage
fire = fully specialized fire mage, averagely specialized arcane mage, lowly specialized frost mage
frost = fully specialized frost mage, averagely specialized arcane mage.

b) (Flavor wise) Why are arcane and fire best defensive tools Ice Barrier and Ice Block? Why is Frost Nova one of the best arcane and fire CC? Why there are next to 0 non-damaging fire spells? Why are all 3 specs defensive spells about absorbing/blocking (frost themes)? Shouldn't arcane be more about reflecting/deflecting/taking less damage/vanishing (Invisibility etc.) and fire more about dodgeing/healing/incinerating (the incoming harmful stuff)/dissipating (our own body by becoming fire, like Spriests become shadow with dispersions)? Why doesn't arcane use its mana as a tool which is not exclusive to do damage (Mana Barrier, etc.)?

5) Our talent tree spells are almost all shared. The majority of our talent tree spells are exactly the same. A few have a different name, image and/or tooltip but basically do the same thing. Some have basically the same purpose or imply the same concept. Let's compare fire and frost talent trees.

a) Completely identical talent tree spells:
Shimmer, Cauterize, Cold Snap, Mirror Image, Rune of Power, Incanter's Flow, Ice Floes, Ring of Frost, Ice Ward, Unstable Magic = 10 talent tree spells.

b) Talent tree spells with different name/image/tooltip but which do exactly the same thing:
Blast wave/Ice Nova, Flame On/Frozen Touch = 2 talent tree spells.

c) There are also spells which have basically the same concept or purpose:
Living Bomb/Frost Bomb (arguably we can say, fully comparing them would take too much space though), Flame Patch/Arctic Gale (increase Blizzard/Flamestrike damage), Comet Storm/Meteor (the second one doesn't still split, otherwise, the only difference is the CD) = 3 talent tree spells.

So we share 10 spells, up to 12 if we consider "b" too, up to 15 if we consider "c" too ("c" is arguable, but I don't think "b" truly is). Let's take the most favourable case, "a" (10 spells).

Before doing any comparison, I have to say that this a issue somewhat shared by other classes too, but it doesn't make it a less important issue, just a generalized one (and, I still think that mages are still among the worst, if looked by this PoV).

It even gets worse, for the mage class, if we consider all the other points I made above. Anyway, let's compare some specs of the same class (as far as talent trees homogenization is concerned), they'll be compared considering the criteria "a" (completely identical spells):

- Balance and Feral druids share 9 talent tree spells/abilities but their baseline arsenals and mechanics are so different that it doesn't feel like an issue at all, or, at worse, lessened a lot.

Let's compare specs of pure classes.

- BM and Survival Hunters share 4 talent tree abilities.
- MM and Survival Hunters share 4 talent tree abilities.
- BM and MM Hunters share 9 talent tree abilities. Still, BM is a fully pet based spec (differently from frost) and MM doesn't even have a pet, so, again, as is for druids, the issue is not there or is not felt. Some BM abilities do not even work without a pet (Kill Command, for example) and some doesn't fully work (Bestial Wrath, for example). Also, I was told BM was going to be heavily changed in the next builds so this number could even go down.

- Ass and Outlaw Rogues share 9 talent tree abilities. Almost as much as mages. But, let's compare their base toolkits. The only non-DPS spells a fire mage has over a frost mage is Dragon's Breath. Let's see how many "non-DPS-only" abilities an Ass rogue has over an Outlaw Rogue (excluding non-combat related spells, otherwise the list would have been even longer): Poisoned Knife, Sap, Shadowstep, Crippling Poison, Garrote, Vendetta. There are 6 abilities that Ass rogues have over Outlaw rogues. Compared with Dragon's Breath only, they are a lot more.
- Outlaw and Sub Rogues share 9 talent tree abilities. Checking their baseline arsenal, the abilities Outlaw rogues have over Sub Rogues are (same criteria as above): Pistol Shot, Gouge, Between the Eyes, Roll the Bones, Adrenaline Rush, Riposte, Bribe. There are 7 abilities that Outlaw rogues have over Sub Rogues.
- Ass and Sub Rogues share 12 talent tree abilities. There's a new rival in town boys. Let's check their baseline arsenals (Sub "non-dps only" baseline abilities over Ass): Shadow Dance, Blind, Nightblade. They are 3 (3 is still 3x better than 1 though ) but also keep in mind that Sub (and Out) rogues loses poisons (there are 4 poisons Ass rogues have, 2 lethal, 2 (1 talent) non lethal) and keep also in mind that Sub will have, through a completely reworked Shadowdance, a completely different approach during the fights. Ass and Out rogues can only use 1 stealth-requiring ability 1 time during a fight (at the beginning, when they are in stealth), or 1 time every 2 min with Vanish (which in solo PvE resets the mob). A sub rogue by using 1 charge (of the 3 available) of SD can use 3 stealth-requiring abilities, thanks to a stealth-like 3sec buff, every 60 sec maximum (way less, on average, thanks to a passive which can grant/reset charges), or even 9 abilities every 180 sec maximum if 3 charges are used in a row.
To keep it simple, Sub rogues, every X seconds (way lower than 60), can use their stealth-requiring abilities, even during fights, so, every X seconds their arsenal instantly include 4 more abilities, 2 DPS related, and 2 non-DPS-only related (Sap, Cheap Shot).

In all the comparisons I've only listed the completely identical spells/abilities ("a", 10 in the mage case), but it could also be possible that the comparisons could have been a lot worse if almost identical spells ("b" 12 in the mage case) or spells with the same purpose and concept ("c" 15 in the mage case) would have been considered, considering that mages have a lot of them.

6)Even considering the PvP talents the situation doesn't change a lot. Hunters, Warlocks and Mages are the only ones who fully share 4 tiers (12 spells). Said that, Hunters and Warlocks have stronger bases (are less homogenized to begin with) so, again, the issue worsens for the mage class.

7)I didn't check all the artifacts, but, as far as mages and artifacts are related, I know mages already share some traits (for example, both arcane and frost have a +100% Ice Barrier, although they are "disguised" with different names). Dunno about the other classes (I would rather not check them all, so let's give it the benefit of the doubt and pretend all classes have shared traits, for now ).

8)I am sure I am missing something. I'll add something later eventually.

[Erolian]

Aesthetics are a hugely important part of the gameplay experience, point in fact.

Yes and the aesthetics exist for the spells already. Stopping and making each universal spell match each spec thematically for every class in the game does nothing but make the game less readable at a glance and waste the time of people who could be working on real issues or developing better or new aesthetics.

[dreaderus]

Yes and the aesthetics exist for the spells already. Stopping and making each universal spell match each spec thematically for every class in the game does nothing but make the game less readable at a glance and waste the time of people who could be working on real issues or developing better or new aesthetics.

disagree completely i go out now and farm cool "fire themed" transmorgs, i have a fire themed name and appearance, and i am truly attempting to be a fire mage.

I simply cannot use spells that cover me in frost or ice, and feel like I am being somewhat gyped of my game play choice.

You may not agree but the reality is there are many effects in the game which could theme this property already existing, lol they have time to make toys and glyphs that make u trail smoke and fire

[Elegiac]

Yes and the aesthetics exist for the spells already. Stopping and making each universal spell match each spec thematically for every class in the game does nothing but make the game less readable at a glance

What on earth does "Less readable" mean?

[Seneca]

What on earth does "Less readable" mean?

He/She, I think, means that we players would have a harder time guessing what it's happening to the other players (both friendly and unfriendly).

For example, a Holy Paladin seeing a friendly low health mage encased in a block of ice (Ice Block) could think "well, he is safe for now, let's heal someone else".

A holy Paladin seeing a friendly low health mage surrounded by rocks on fire could think "what hell is going on, is he in danger, is that stuff a DoT? *use Lay on Hands*".


Basically every player should learn to identify all the added variants of every spell to have visual clues of what's going on.

[Snes]

They could use existing animations. for example i simply cannot use talents that cover me in ice or snow as a fire mage, i hate it.

Ice block is ok but why not a wall of fire or something that does the same thing.

Pure fire, pure frost, pure arcane

What about Flame Wreath? Haven't seen that since kara. Immunity like Ice Block, with a small heal, but damages you if you move before it expires.

[Barnabas]

Because having just all fire spells is boring.

[Polarthief]

Because having just all fire spells is boring.

So is being a Fire Mage with 0 defensive Fire moves.

I'm fine with having Ice Barrier/Block, and Blink, but besides Cauterize (which I don't really count as a "defensive Fire Move", more like "it just happens"), there are literally no defensive Fire-type moves.