Mythic Arch - DPS Checks

[Almom]

Hi, as you can see on logs my group is currently 739 average iLv, we are getting throught P1 with 1 Doomfire almost every try, but why I still thinking my guild's DPS are so bad? Weren't we supposed to go P3 without the 4rd Deathcaller (3rd on P2) ???
We're using the the 2nd ring a few seconds before 3rd Shackles, but still far away from the DPS cap. Should we use the 2nd potion there or safe ir for 4th Infernals? Is that okay to deal with the 4rd Deatchcaller? That must stress our healers for sure.

I'm kinda lost about what should I set for my group... keep expecting they to do greater DPS or set our strategy to handle the 4th Deathcaller?

Logs: www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vAC2GmT9cayzKxNW

[Adramelch]

Transitioning with adds isn't as a big a deal as people make it to be. We've had many a kill where something went wrong in P2 and we ended up getting that extra Deathcaller. Surely it subtracts some P3 damage that would go to the boss, but it's not that big a deal (certainly not worth "wasting" your 2nd pots on P2 to battle it).

You don't seem to have a single clear P2->P3 transition (with no prior deaths), at least in that specific day, so it's kinda pointless to look at the missing DPS first. Tip: Most of the missing DPS comes from people dying. Fix that, see where you are DPS-wise and then, if you still get the Deathcaller, you can reassess the situation.

[Deja Thoris]

I agree with Adramelch. Priority is to master a phase without deaths then optimise on dps. No point in see you had x amount of adds when you've lost 3 people, it obviously impacts things. I think the only dps checks that matter are hitting the correct number of doomfires in p1 and killing the boss at or before the 5th set of infernals in p3.

[Astynax]

Have a few or all the locks swap to Destro and practice w that in P1-2 now rather than trying it later once P1-2 is clean as afflic. Having all 3 to just tunnel boss will mean very bad times for all when infernals and stars all spawn having only 3 hunters and a mage left to deal w them

Swap your weapon enchant to crit too. Blackrock is crap now since it just procs when drop low in HP

We ring and pot when the adds first spawn at the gate and just before second shackles. Lets us avoid another group of adds and sometimes even skip breaking those shackles from phasing him into the nether

[Almom]

On this try IE: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...48&end=2731740

We had lost only lost our DK, given the Priest were brezd in 2 seconds. She did 4.3M less damage than the other DK, and the boss were with 43% and 2nd wave of adds up. I'm a prot warrior and I will be supposed to get the 4th Deathcaller, considering the damage I take on the 2nd, I problably won't be able to handle his damage without Shield Wall. Coccun, PS and both Rings are down at this point.

[Adramelch]

Cocoon, PS, Sac, 2 Vigis, Ring and you still can't handle a 4th deathcaller? I don't know, that seems a bigger problem than the DPS.

Also 1 try, where you still had 1 death (2 actually), is nothing more than anecdotal experience.

Still, since you insist, your DPS is in fact lacking. Much like Astynax says, you'll probably have to swap 1-2 locks to Destro, if you ever want to handle Infernals at a consistent manner, and that will mean less single target damage in P1-2.

[Almom]

On 4th Deathcaller I won't have any External CDs. We're using Vigilances on 2nd Shackles to handle Chaos Dmg. PS and Coccun are on CD either and our paladin should not come on progression. We're using Tank ring for 3rd Deathcaller and considering we must keep tunneling boss after 4th Deathcaller comes, and that Rangeds must move asap when we get P3, 4th Deathcaller will be alive for longer that I wish, but we must try differente things today.

One of our Warlocks wont be raiding because of personal issues, I will ask one to swap Destro.

But thanks for advice!! It's kinda sad to have a 739 group and still lacking of DPS, but even with 4th Deathcaller still pretty doable.

[shi]

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, you have 28 shield slam casts woth 20 sword and board procs, and you're having difficulties living through deathcallers at 739? Maybe it's because your rage generation is horrible so you aren't able to cast shield barrier enough.

For example, let's look at this one minute window before you die

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...78&end=2737923

You have vig up at the start while you're tanking arch and the small felborne over fiend (who doesn't hit for shit), which should be unnecessary. One of the tanks pops tank ring, which is fine. You use shield block which is fine. You use last stand??? For whatever reason while tank ring is still up??? And while nearly at full hp.

Then for the next TWENTY seconds you get whacked by archimonde without shield block up (because you're spamming barrier instead for whatever reason, hint shield block is superior to barrier for mitigating physical damage), and then die promptly as soon as death brand gets cast.

In fact in this whole fourty second window, you have one shield block cast, while tanking arch the entire time.

[Adramelch]

You just simply don't need externals on the chains. If you do then either ppl are not using personals (either due to forgetting or due to not planning to have them available for that point) or the healing is just not enough (or both).

[Wilderness]

You're going to want at least a lock or two to switch to be able to handle infernals, especially since you don't have any boomkins. Locks can be great on infernals but a boomkin popping CDs for a wave is amazing. I don't know why everyone seems focused on the 1-doomfire strat now, but I don't believe its the best way to progress on the boss.

If you were 200 pulls in, then sure, don't go relearn a new strat but it looks like you're pretty early on at this point. Saving hero for P3 for that 4th wave and to make that phase shorter in general is a better approach in my opinion, especially looking at your dps now. It looks like you're pretty close to the 1 doomfire cutoff now, and its only going to be harder if/when some of your locks swap specs. The first couple of phases are just about consistency and there's little RNG to it, just about doing it right each time, but the last phase gets chaotic and if you can shorten that along with making the hardest part of it easier (the 4th wave) then that's the better approach in my opinion.

[Astynax]

With so few people on adds both warriors should be much higher with arms cleave. Both of them have very low execute usage and many pulls they just had rend and a melee hit or two on the adds
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=66&target=79

Or nothing at all
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=64&target=79

Which is free damage lost from sweeping strikes and massive hits on execute + SS that can be transferred.

On deathcallers:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=64&target=81
You see a tiny bit of sweeping strikes damage going from Archi on to the add in the last 2 sections, when it could be monstrous executes on those adds

Might be why you need so many major CDs for those adds too because theyre up for SOOOOO long and the longer theyre up the more damage they do. Nobody is really hitting them when arms warriors should be near the top if not #1 damage on major adds. Despite needing to shove Archi to phase you still need to drop the spirits and deathcallers ASAP. Deathbrand damage is getting out of control = tanks die when adds up too long

Your 44% pull shows people dying from wrought at the same time that you drop from melee and death brand. That add should never be up at the same time that wrought is going out. DPS is way too slow on that add

EDIT: Forgot to look at tank and defensive logs too after seeing shi's point.
On the 47% pull you have demo shout then shield wall used on the same ability on the single death brand.
1. Proving that adds are up too long
2. CDs aren't being used properly

Your casts
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1799&wipes=1

Try to prioritize demo shout and last stand first since they have shorter CDs so you can use them more frequently. You use demo shout the most, then shield wall and very rarely last stand. LS + enraged regen can soak up a massive amount of damage. Too much devastate spam and not enough revenge, especially as you're doing a crit build you can heavily spam revenge = more rage and more damage. Shield slam should never be higher than revenge when you get tons of free resets on multi target. Rage gen is low from this which could power a lot more barriers

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1799&wipes=1
and your barrier uptime is higher than block. Block should always be higher which would mitigate a massive amount of damage that doesn't need to be healed. Block here could get to 40+% with you always tanking something and charges coming back up when soaking fire

Disc priest never uses pain supp... WTF (3 times in 15 pulls)

Your Hpal never uses hand of Sac... WTF!! x2 (0 times ever). Can divine prot himself for wrought to take 40% less damage too and most of the time doesn't

When holding DPS or getting hit by wrought your warriors can swap to def stance for a free no CD 20% damage reduction, but they never do and they've died multiple times to wrought damage

Almost everyone 3 or less uses of health tonics/stones in the 15 pulls

Big mess of a lot of little things people aren't doing adding up huge

[shi]

The death brand was out for 3s when he died.

[Astynax]

yeah from having zero defensives up and everyone else taking boatloads of damage

I also don't understand the vig usages from the warriors.
Deadpoetic uses vig on 6x, Nouxer 7x in 15 pulls but on the healer and DPS
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=114030
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=114030

What sort of damage are those guys taking that needs an external?? Ive never seen this
Should be used on tanks

[shi]

I'm also not sure if deathcaller damage is as big of an issue as you're making it out to be. Ignoring first death brand (since that deathcaller should be low prio until arch phases), their second death brand lasts for 17s, and the third lasts for 21. Looking at our kill this week, our second and third lasted 20s each, and both of our tanks run DPS trinkets without having an issue with deathcallers.

[Xanthan]

I think we have fairly decent DPS, and we don't bother trying to do 1 doomfire. We save lust for p3 and make sure we only get 3 infernal waves and have ring for the group of 4. If you don't have the DPS to do 1 doomfire without lust, you definitely don't have the DPS to do P3 without seeing at least 3 sets of infernals(if not 4).

Edit: Misread, and now understand you're talking about how many deathcallers you get in P2. I wouldn't worry about it tbh. P2 duration never really affected any of our kills. As long as you're not doing something fundamentally wrong, you should be able to handle an arbitrarily long P2 without issue. The phase isn't a race or anything. Just keep killing adds, and have CDs on the tanks while you're burning down deathcallers.

[Astynax]

No it's not the only issue but its just something controllable by the OP. Our adds are up that long too but I only picked it out more bc the tank was blowing major CDs and dying to it. Our adds last that long as well

Going from 100-0 in 3 seconds was from no CDs, no AM and no heals but could be in the tank's control if a major was used (or call for one) prior to the brand going out. Brand and melee were the major sources of damage

That on top of everyone else needing to do more damage, more defensives or just put some abilities they weren't using on their bars :/

[shi]

I think we got mixed up somewhere. I meant damage on the deathcaller isn't what's making or breaking their p2 since their death brands last an acceptable amount of time (so the deathcaller dies more or less on time).

I agree with you that OP needs to step up his AM/CD usage as well as his general rotational play (way too many devastates relative to revenge/shield slam).

[Almom]

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, you have 28 shield slam casts woth 20 sword and board procs, and you're having difficulties living through deathcallers at 739? Maybe it's because your rage generation is horrible so you aren't able to cast shield barrier enough.

For example, let's look at this one minute window before you die

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...78&end=2737923

You have vig up at the start while you're tanking arch and the small felborne over fiend (who doesn't hit for shit), which should be unnecessary. One of the tanks pops tank ring, which is fine. You use shield block which is fine. You use last stand??? For whatever reason while tank ring is still up??? And while nearly at full hp.

Then for the next TWENTY seconds you get whacked by archimonde without shield block up (because you're spamming barrier instead for whatever reason, hint shield block is superior to barrier for mitigating physical damage), and then die promptly as soon as death brand gets cast.

In fact in this whole fourty second window, you have one shield block cast, while tanking arch the entire time.

I know I make a lot of mistakes, but it takes me some trys, because as RL I use to check so many things on first trys that I use to f*** off.
Vigilance shouldn't be used on me, some warrior did it wrong. And about SBlock, I surely failed.

[Astynax]

Vigilance most definitely should be used on you. 30% damage reduction on that target for 12 seconds. What member in the raid is taking more damage than the tank?

They've been using vig on some guy getting hit by wrought to reduce a 200k hit to 140k, the vig saved 60k in damage

OR

While you get hit by 260k melee swings, 400k death brand hits with 100k ticks etc they'll be saving 500k+ in damage taken per cast

Every class has a personal or self absorb to survive they can use for the unavoidable damage. It's just that most of the people in your group haven't been

If you meant by the vig in that log prepull, cant tell who did it then but none of your warriors used vig on you normally on any other pull. You should be taking vig and casting it on your co-tank as well to help them w externals, try not to use it on dps or healers

[Almom]

You're going to want at least a lock or two to switch to be able to handle infernals, especially since you don't have any boomkins. Locks can be great on infernals but a boomkin popping CDs for a wave is amazing. I don't know why everyone seems focused on the 1-doomfire strat now, but I don't believe its the best way to progress on the boss.

If you were 200 pulls in, then sure, don't go relearn a new strat but it looks like you're pretty early on at this point. Saving hero for P3 for that 4th wave and to make that phase shorter in general is a better approach in my opinion, especially looking at your dps now. It looks like you're pretty close to the 1 doomfire cutoff now, and its only going to be harder if/when some of your locks swap specs. The first couple of phases are just about consistency and there's little RNG to it, just about doing it right each time, but the last phase gets chaotic and if you can shorten that along with making the hardest part of it easier (the 4th wave) then that's the better approach in my opinion.

We're at 56 wipe atm. I'm trying this strategy to make the fight shorter possible, because my guild members use to fail at one shot mechanics a LOT.

With so few people on adds both warriors should be much higher with arms cleave. Both of them have very low execute usage and many pulls they just had rend and a melee hit or two on the adds
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=66&target=79

Or nothing at all
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=64&target=79

Which is free damage lost from sweeping strikes and massive hits on execute + SS that can be transferred.

On deathcallers:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=64&target=81
You see a tiny bit of sweeping strikes damage going from Archi on to the add in the last 2 sections, when it could be monstrous executes on those adds

Might be why you need so many major CDs for those adds too because theyre up for SOOOOO long and the longer theyre up the more damage they do. Nobody is really hitting them when arms warriors should be near the top if not #1 damage on major adds. Despite needing to shove Archi to phase you still need to drop the spirits and deathcallers ASAP. Deathbrand damage is getting out of control = tanks die when adds up too long

Your 44% pull shows people dying from wrought at the same time that you drop from melee and death brand. That add should never be up at the same time that wrought is going out. DPS is way too slow on that add

EDIT: Forgot to look at tank and defensive logs too after seeing shi's point.
On the 47% pull you have demo shout then shield wall used on the same ability on the single death brand.
1. Proving that adds are up too long
2. CDs aren't being used properly

Your casts
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1799&wipes=1

Try to prioritize demo shout and last stand first since they have shorter CDs so you can use them more frequently. You use demo shout the most, then shield wall and very rarely last stand. LS + enraged regen can soak up a massive amount of damage. Too much devastate spam and not enough revenge, especially as you're doing a crit build you can heavily spam revenge = more rage and more damage. Shield slam should never be higher than revenge when you get tons of free resets on multi target. Rage gen is low from this which could power a lot more barriers

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1799&wipes=1
and your barrier uptime is higher than block. Block should always be higher which would mitigate a massive amount of damage that doesn't need to be healed. Block here could get to 40+% with you always tanking something and charges coming back up when soaking fire

Disc priest never uses pain supp... WTF (3 times in 15 pulls)

Your Hpal never uses hand of Sac... WTF!! x2 (0 times ever). Can divine prot himself for wrought to take 40% less damage too and most of the time doesn't

When holding DPS or getting hit by wrought your warriors can swap to def stance for a free no CD 20% damage reduction, but they never do and they've died multiple times to wrought damage

Almost everyone 3 or less uses of health tonics/stones in the 15 pulls

Big mess of a lot of little things people aren't doing adding up huge

Doomfire are dying for: Prysmatic Crystals & Soul Capacitors, no need for warrior there.

Yeah, I will ask then to do decent DPS on those adds... they are not turning.

I'm Using DS for Death Brand, and SW to handle 2nd and 3rd Shadow Blast. How wrong is it?

I know my Rev/SS counts are horrible

Thats the big problem from my group. If I do not set theirs Defensive CDs, they wont use... like never...

yeah from having zero defensives up and everyone else taking boatloads of damage

I also don't understand the vig usages from the warriors.
Deadpoetic uses vig on 6x, Nouxer 7x in 15 pulls but on the healer and DPS
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=114030
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=114030

What sort of damage are those guys taking that needs an external?? Ive never seen this
Should be used on tanks

We are using Vigilance on Shackles target during 2nd Chaos, to smoth damage on those players. That was at least what I setted.

I'm also not sure if deathcaller damage is as big of an issue as you're making it out to be. Ignoring first death brand (since that deathcaller should be low prio until arch phases), their second death brand lasts for 17s, and the third lasts for 21. Looking at our kill this week, our second and third lasted 20s each, and both of our tanks run DPS trinkets without having an issue with deathcallers.

I'm just worried about our 4rd Deathcaller, because we gonna focus him just after get into P3, and I gonna be out of CDs.

- - - Updated - - -

Vigilance most definitely should be used on you. 30% damage reduction on that target for 12 seconds. What member in the raid is taking more damage than the tank?

They've been using vig on some guy getting hit by wrought to reduce a 200k hit to 140k, the vig saved 60k in damage

OR

While you get hit by 260k melee swings, 400k death brand hits with 100k ticks etc they'll be saving 500k+ in damage taken per cast

Every class has a personal or self absorb to survive they can use for the unavoidable damage. It's just that most of the people in your group haven't been

If you meant by the vig in that log prepull, cant tell who did it then but none of your warriors used vig on you normally on any other pull. You should be taking vig and casting it on your co-tank as well to help them w externals, try not to use it on dps or healers

For sure Vigi on Tank will be the higher dmg reduction. I'm just trying to garatee that those who are taking high ticks from shackles during 2nd chaos, and at LEAST 2 ticks from chaos, from dying. But I will avoid using on them, saving those vigi will make the 4th Deathcaller so much easier to handle.



Btw, thanks for the advice everyone!