So we're done here?

[Deleted]

Because it disincentivizes the very few people who are willing to build groups to begin with even further ?

The leader of the group gets a free bonus roll each week. The leader of the group gets an extra 10% chance at loot for the run.

There's PLENTY of solutions to this issue while using personal loot The answer isn't giving control over all of the loot to an individual over a large group of players...

[Smeeh]

So instead of joining the pugs that run with personal loot, you complain about all the pugs that dont. I think i see what the problem is.

[Gatsbybutters]

Sorry bro, but I'm doing great DPS, not failing in a single mechanic, bring some 740+ friends to help us, and I should roll with an new 100 who wiped us 4 times and spent 50% of the fight kissing the floor dead because all he wants was "Roll on some pixels" ????? No way

He should just look for a guild that suits for him, if he's good enough for this group, surely the loot coucil will give him some gear.

See this is the issue. I'll be as blunt as possible so people can't cherry pick and generalize what I'm saying:
I'm asking gamers not to be selfish pricks to other gamers while playing video games, and I get 3 pages of reasons why everyone should be pricks to everyone at all times. And then gamers sit there and whine "oh no one likes gamers because we play video games", but our hobby isn't the issue. It's the majority turning off any and all empathy to any other human being the second their hands hit the controller or keyboard.

And why does it matter if one or more than one item is reserved? You got 70's running reserve run lich king raids ffs. In 2016. The issue isn't that I "don't get why they are doing it" I know why they are doing it, they want the gear to themselves. It's that you can't see the problem with it, that's the issue. It. Is. Fucked.

[Deleted]

This. The answer to the entire thread.

I personally have lots of Characters. All I want is to do some casual PuG Raids on a few Alts, but to get into groups the requirements are ridiculous (710 for Normal, 725 for Heroic, AotC for Normal) unless you're a Tank/Healer in which case you will probably get invited just for signing up and all of the loot is usually ML/Reserved anyways.

I've been signing up to some of these as a 685/690 DPS, having now got to the point on the quest for Tomes. Experience so far is to be kicked on the trash before Hellfire Assault on my Hunter and to wipe for over an hour on Kormrok as a Fury Warrior. Decided it was easier/smarter to do LFR for my Tomes.

I'm under the impression I'm not an absolutely terrible player, having experienced some Mythic HFC and done CM Gold. But despite that I still struggle to get into a decent HFC Group that is appropriate for my Gear on Alts.

Honestly though, it's been crap for BRF as well from my experience. Everyone wants their share of the loot, but when a group decides to reserve an item when the boss is dead myself and half the group called the Leader out and left.

Yup, it's a tough situation to new/casual players at the moment. The options are you spam Ashran for 4 hours to get roughly 703 ilvl, buy a few BOEs for 70k+. Then spam Mythic dungeons with the hope of 700+ ilvl items and upgrade them with your Valor. You could also conquest cap at 20k+ points and get 710ilvl.

So with all of this, you might get into a normal run which won't get your ilvl above 710 realistically. You can cross your fingers and hope you get into a 715+ group and get some epics to boost you up to that ilvl.

It's tough, I think players who are already raiding forget what it's like to have no connections in the game and have to fend for yourself. I do really feel for these players and try to make an extra effort to get at least 5-6 700'ish ilvl players into my HC PuGs. Sadly, not everybody has adopted this attitude

Ontop of ALL of that, items are reserved, ggwp.

- - - Updated - - -

So instead of joining the pugs that run with personal loot, you complain about all the pugs that dont. I think i see what the problem is.

It's the fact they're few and far between. There's not many HC pugs that are clearing without ML on nowadays.

[Zantos]

See this is the issue. I'll be as blunt as possible so people can't cherry pick and generalize what I'm saying:
I'm asking gamers not to be selfish pricks to other gamers while playing video games, and I get 3 pages of reasons why everyone should be pricks to everyone at all times. And then gamers sit there and whine "oh no one likes gamers because we play video games", but our hobby isn't the issue. It's the majority turning off any and all empathy to any other human being the second their hands hit the controller or keyboard.

And why does it matter if one or more than one item is reserved? You got 70's running reserve run lich king raids ffs. In 2016. The issue isn't that I "don't get why they are doing it" I know why they are doing it, they want the gear to themselves. It's that you can't see the problem with it, that's the issue. It. Is. Fucked.

I'll be blunt. You're asking gamers to not be "selfish" by asking that they cater to you. They are taking the time to form the groups, lead it, wait for it to fill, filter out the bad players and replace them, teach the strategies and everything else that comes with being a pug raid leader. They are doing all this work, so they decide to reserve 1 or 2 items. Items that may not drop. Items Your friend could bonus roll. And yet somehow, despite all of the work they put in and ask for one item, they are selfish? You're the selfish one, not them. You do literally none of the work and just show up, yet you want it your way. Why don't You lead raids for him? Set it on set days and times you try. Get him used to being in a guild.

People are not being pricks here. You're ignoring the facts. Fact of the matter is, its the end of the expansion!! Pickings are slim. Guild choices are small and shrinking. Pugs are tired of running the raid, and don't want to risk having to run it again, so the reserve an item or two more often. Heck, some of them actually care about their friends, so they raid lead a raid for their friend and reserve loot for them. At the start of the expansion, you have Far more options and choice, for both pugs and guilds. My guild is a /roll system, we are 13/13 heroic, but we are done raiding. HFC is boring after killing the final boss for the 6th time and realizing you cant field the team to get to mythic.

Second of all, loot council is not as bad as you make it. This is a YOU issue, not others. You assume its bad, so You wont even advise your friend to at least try it.

Third, Bonus Rolls. They are a thing. Try to bonus roll on the item they want that's reserved. You can get three tokens a week to try with. Who knows how far those pugs will even get. At least trying and getting some gear is better then none. Heck, I got gear on my alts purely because of the bonus roll. Does it suck when an item you would like is reserved? Sure, but its still worth trying for other pieces of gear in order to open up the opportunities they have for raiding by having a higher ilevel. You need to put in time and effort to raid your ilevel to raid. That is how its always been and how it always will be.

No one here is being a prick. You're limiting yourselves at this point by not wanting to compromise or lead your own groups. Sure, new players can't be expected to lead a group, But YOU certainly can. If you're so concerned about your friend, You help him. No one is being a prick by setting up their own groups and having their own rules. They have every right to reserve something for the work they put in forming and working with the group of strangers. Stop crying and whining that you can't have it your way and then call people names because they call you out on your whining.

[Adramelch]

The 710+ for normal, 725+ on heroic is such an exaggeration. Sure, there's groups like that, but there's A LOT of groups, with 700+, 715+ respectively. Sure even those are inflated, but easy to reach with a modicum of effort.

[Zantos]

Solution: Personal loot all around with a duplicate item prevention system. Boom, done.

Aka Destroy any longevity the raid has. Experience boredom and content drought far faster.

[Marhault]

Personal loot is changed in Legion to where if you have an equal or better item in the slot, you can trade it away. This should make PL the best form of loot for any group in Legion after the first few weeks of top raiding where you are funneling loot. And if they don't remove the fact it also drops more pieces per boss kill, then outside of split runs for raiding or top 200 guilds (Even that number may be high) probably don't need to worry about it.

Yeah if that person wants that one piece of loot they may try to run reserve runs, but when the loot no longer gets wasted going to a person twice from PL there wouldn't be a reason not to use it.

[Deleted]

Middle guilds: all loot council for some reason.

You seem to have some real bad experience with loot council.

The guilds I know using loot council, including mine, use that system to provide loot to the player that will benefit the most from it. period. no guild rank or seniority or whatever involved. trials are treated equally to raid members or officers.

I thought this was common sense about Loot Council. Otherwise its a Loot Aristocracy.

[Kantoro]

You're done, I guess. Lotta other people don't seem to have a problem. Maybe it's you.

[Deleted]

The ultimate solution is to just force personal loot into group finder. It boggles my mind why they won't do this.

If I were still leading PuGs, which I don't, forcing PL on all groups would have a second effect:

Right now I would bring 10-15 average to bad players, just to fill up the group and get more loot. Not because I need them, I'd be better off without them. But I chose to carry their weight for the sake of more loot.

Once I'm forced into PL, I'd be an even bigger elitist jerk than I am now. I'd exclude everyone from the raid that doesn't know his stuff. There is no incentive to me to teach those guys how the game works.

[Kolvarg]

Once I'm forced into PL, I'd be an even bigger elitist jerk than I am now. I'd exclude everyone from the raid that doesn't know his stuff. There is no incentive to me to teach those guys how the game works.

It's not the game's fault some players have a self-centric way of thinking and are incapable of even considering being "weighted down" by "worse" players, when chances are at some point or another they were carried by someone better which helped them become better themselves.


Imo they need to add some sort of "pug-friendly" mode to LFG. No true "raid leader", can only kick by voting, loot forced on personal, no over-the-top ilvl requirements - anything that creates a better environment for pugging, and helps newer players play with players in similar situations / levels of "skill" and knowledge of the raid. Tiered raids / queues (think MoP Flex mode) would help too.

[Adramelch]

So a glorified LFR?

[Zantos]

Imo they need to add some sort of "pug-friendly" mode to LFG. No true "raid leader", can only kick by voting, loot forced on personal, no over-the-top ilvl requirements - anything that creates a better environment for pugging, and helps newer players play with players in similar situations / levels of "skill" and knowledge of the raid. Tiered raids / queues (think MoP Flex mode) would help too.

They have that. LFR.

[Deleted]

If I were still leading PuGs, which I don't, forcing PL on all groups would have a second effect:

Right now I would bring 10-15 average to bad players, just to fill up the group and get more loot. Not because I need them, I'd be better off without them. But I chose to carry their weight for the sake of more loot.

Once I'm forced into PL, I'd be an even bigger elitist jerk than I am now. I'd exclude everyone from the raid that doesn't know his stuff. There is no incentive to me to teach those guys how the game works.

Lol wow. You "carrying noobs" is "teaching" them how the game works... I love how you assume because people have low item level it automatically makes them a "bad player" as well

[Deleted]

Lol wow. You "carrying noobs" is "teaching" them how the game works... I love how you assume because people have low item level it automatically makes them a "bad player" as well

At what point was I talking about itemlevel? I never mentioned that. I love how you assume that I assume ...

[MrHappy]

what's wrong with loot council?

You want to roll on gear go do LFR and use your coins.

[Deleted]

At what point was I talking about itemlevel? I never mentioned that. I love how you assume that I assume ...

OK, how are you judging that they're "bad players", what criteria do you use? For some reason when you're making the group I doubt you're taking the time to get to know the player, talking to them etc

[Deleted]

OK, how are you judging that they're "bad players", what criteria do you use? For some reason when you're making the group I doubt you're taking the time to get to know the player, talking to them etc

Well, I was actually just trying to make the point that players will be excluded from pugs when PL would be forced on it.

There have actually been a couple of threads about how people chose players before inviting them to a pug.
But now that you're asking, before inviting someone to a PuG, you can check their wowprogress profile for other toons, mainchars, past and current mythic progression. progression on other chars than the one applying. You can check the armory, especially for Feats of strength. There might be some cutting edge FoS along the way in the past. You might wanna have a look when they first killed e.g. Archimonde. Last week or already in July? 1 time, 10 times? You can go to warcraftlogs and actually check their logs. Ultimately it's up to you what metrics you use and what the threshold is before inviting someone. But itemlevel clearly is the worst.

[Dawnrage]

This has to be a troll. There's being a nice guy and then there's straight up just being an idiot.

Is the boss going to kill itself with your "new player" friend? Maybe he will see how nice everyone is in the raid and just roll over to give you all loot.