[MARKSMANSHIP]Legion Alpha Discussion

[3clipse]

Yes. Maximising GCDs was the most skill intense part of play. The skill ceiling has collapsed. It's almost like the class was designed by Ben Brode.

This game has never had a skill ceiling above knee level. WoW is a great game, and I love it, but it's really not hard to play optimally.

[Deleted]

This game has never had a skill ceiling above knee level. WoW is a great game, and I love it, but it's really not hard to play optimally.

Current legion sims of BM have you literally AFK 33% of the time. MM is a lot less, but it's still unacceptable. Each action required is an opportunity for a better player to make correct decisions. Fewer actions means fewer opportunities to make mistakes.

[Bepples]

I still don't get why they tied Hunters Mark to autoshots, it makes sidewinders unplayable for me.

The reasoning was that they didn't want to give the impression that casting more Arcane Shots gave you a better chance at Hunter's Mark and that tying Hunter's Mark to Auto Shot would result in no gameplay change over the previous design where it was tied to Arcane Shot/Multi-Shot/Sidewinders.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3744451?page=1

And yes, that is entirely wrong. But what can you do: this guy (Celestalon) is one of the most arrogant developers who will never admit to any wrongdoing on top of the fact that he has very little understanding of most of the classes he is in charge of designing and game mechanics such as RPPM. It is astounding to watch threads where he is posting where he talks down to everyone else despite being so laughably wrong about the topic of discussion. Here is an example from the WoD beta regarding Elemental Shamans:

http://www.wowhead.com/bluetracker?topic=13733233432

My favourite line:

And with the squish changing how numbers are perceived in general, most of you probably had no clue that you were a little overpowered, and that's fine.

Do note that Elemental shamans needed huge buffs right after WoD release due to having such poor damage that killing single quest mobs was very challenging and you needed to pop cooldowns to survive more than 1 at a time.

[Deleted]

Just give us a fucking Hunter's Mark spell with a cooldown istead of a frikkin proc, seriously.

[Kwaai]

This game has never had a skill ceiling above knee level. WoW is a great game, and I love it, but it's really not hard to play optimally.

It's not about playing optimally, it's that it feels like shit to stand there doing nothing, especially when the class has been designed around the opposite for most of the last decade.

[Deleted]

Yes. Maximising GCDs was the most skill intense part of play. The skill ceiling has collapsed. It's almost like the class was designed by Ben Brode.

wod MM was more ez then legion MM, but they are indeed not hard to play (not that hunter ever was)

[Donkeywing]

This game has never had a skill ceiling above knee level. WoW is a great game, and I love it, but it's really not hard to play optimally.

I dare to claim that less than a dozen hunters played ''optimally'' on Blackhand, most of you were fucking terrible. On the hardest dps check of wod. Don't even get me started on those who played the wrong spec because they were ''''equal''''.

The illusion that this game was easy is laughable, there's only a few that really stood out and those hunters were leagues above the rest. Ofc I can't say if that's still going to be the case.

[Creatinebrah]

anyone have mythic+ logs they can share

[Sencha]

The gameplay revolves around a proc on .... autoshots.

That's probably the worst spec design I have ever seen in WoW.

[Bepples]

The gameplay revolves around a proc on .... autoshots.

That's probably the worst spec design I have ever seen in WoW.

I think BM in Burning Crusade still takes the cake for hunters (if you discount specs that were literally broken like Survival in early Vanilla). Saying we spammed 1 button while standing still to top the meters is NOT an exaggeration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acO_umcI6xQ&t=2m0s

[Creatinebrah]

how does MM compare to BM? not seeing many logs in favor of MM but hoping i'm overlooking something

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ummary&phase=1

tonytime seems to be the only one i can find that is running MM

[Bergs]

Hey Guys,

I'm working on making the transition towards MM from BM, since it seems like MM is going to be stronger again. I am hoping on a little clarification on the MM rotation (if I should move this to fix my dps, just let me know). I read Azor's guide and play tested it some but want to make sure I understand his point. Azor described weaving MS - AiS - SW - AiS but that does not maximize the number of AiSs inside the Vulnerable debuff, which I thought was the goal. Did I misunderstand or is that just a really simplified rotation? I just want to improve my feel.

I appreciate your feedback -

[kaminaris]

Probably because marked shot does ~ the same dmg as aimed shot on single target and much higher on multi target plus it EXTENDS duration of debuff so if im not mistaken you strive to put max aimed shots inside vulnerable but before it ends manage to also use marked shot (marked shot is also buffed from vulnerable).
Without instant aimed shot you probably gonna put just one Aimed.

[Bullettime]

Hey Guys,

I'm working on making the transition towards MM from BM, since it seems like MM is going to be stronger again. I am hoping on a little clarification on the MM rotation (if I should move this to fix my dps, just let me know). I read Azor's guide and play tested it some but want to make sure I understand his point. Azor described weaving MS - AiS - SW - AiS but that does not maximize the number of AiSs inside the Vulnerable debuff, which I thought was the goal. Did I misunderstand or is that just a really simplified rotation? I just want to improve my feel.

I appreciate your feedback -

It's the goal, to an extent, but one that can be hindered by using higher priority shots like Barrage or the burn phase refreshing itself without time to pool for the double or triple with LnL.

[Deleted]

I've started playing hunter after two years of break and it isn't so bad. Between MoP piano BM and Legion downtime once in a while, I'd take Legion's version. I also have high hopes in Legendary items to smooth rotation a bit (ring and boots).

Anyway, one thing puzzles me - in a situation when I have SW one stack ready (without proc, but with Patient Sniper talent) and enough focus to cast AiS but not enough to cast Barrage (which is off CD), what should I do - cast AiS or wait a little bit to gain enough focus to cast Barrage?
My "out-of-blue logic" tells me I should wait for Barrage (and pray for SW proc) then proceed with AiS -> Marked -> AiS.

[Creatinebrah]

any artifact build path out there? pref for mythic + dungeons

[Dracodraco]

any artifact build path out there? pref for mythic + dungeons

Check back in a month when we're relatively sure that they won't change the tuning around. No point in making a build ATM.

[Nythiz]

Hey Guys,

I'm working on making the transition towards MM from BM, since it seems like MM is going to be stronger again. I am hoping on a little clarification on the MM rotation (if I should move this to fix my dps, just let me know). I read Azor's guide and play tested it some but want to make sure I understand his point. Azor described weaving MS - AiS - SW - AiS but that does not maximize the number of AiSs inside the Vulnerable debuff, which I thought was the goal. Did I misunderstand or is that just a really simplified rotation? I just want to improve my feel.

I appreciate your feedback -

The rotation is pretty straight forward once you grasp the mechanisms.
Assuming you pick up sidewinders and patient sniper, it's as follow:

Sidewinders makes the opponent vulnerable (150% increased AiS and MS damage).
Marked Shot benefits from this buff but also applies this buff itself.
So for an optimal rotation you'll want to create a situation where you cast MS inside the vulnerable window created by Sidewinders, but with minimal overlap.

Something that would look like this:

|-Sidewinders-----AiS-----AiS-----MS--|
...................................|--AiS-----AiS-----|

Now the limit on this rotation is mostly focus. With the 4p T18 you'll likely run out of focus during the second window of Vulnerable; so getting in a 3rd Aimed Shot, while possible time wise, might not be possible focus wise.
When I took the 4p T18 off for a few trials in mythic dungeons, the rotation seemed to flow quite a bit better. I think with Windburst in there the rotation will feel a lot smoother.

A few things to keep in mind:

1) Barrage takes precedence over AiS even in a vulnerable window. But not over Marked Shot in a vulnerable window.

2) Don't use Sidewinders without Marking Targets proc unless you're about to hit 2 stacks of Sidewinders. The temptation for a "focus fix" is huge, but the short term dps you gain (because you get access to a few aimed shots), is quickly lost in the long term because you don't have marking shots up (e.g. no extention to your vulnerable window) and/or don't have access to a sidewinder stack later on in the rotation.
I have to say though, I have been playing this for a while now. And the situation of not having Marking Shots up after a vulnerable window rotation, weren't all that common. In legion we'll have Windburst to fill those gaps as well.

3) On the pull, try to get an auto shot in and then immediately barrage. That initial auto shot has a really high chance to proc Marking Targets (due to RPPM) and if not you'll get another auto shot right after the barrage.
After the barrage cast sidewinders regardless, as you're sitting at 2 stacks so you want to get the cooldown rolling.

4) Your rotation is limited by focus more than by GCD. With 20% haste you generate about 170 focus every 10 seconds, and it's really easy to spend more than that in half the time. Especially with 4pT18.
Expect to wait doing nothing. However the fact sidewinders has 2 stacks; you'll likely have LnL and most fight have mobility requirements means that it's not as huge as some people make it out to be

[Bergs]

Nythiz,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. The rotation that you have posted is similar to what I've been trying to stick to. I appreciated your point about getting an auto in on pull - that is a good idea, thank you. What I'm getting a little stuck on is trying to decide if I think it is more important to more quickly fire MS to create more available MS procs. For instance, Azor has only 1 AiS before and after the Vulnerable procers, which means he is firing MS (able to refresh MS, faster). I watched his stream, for a very short time, yesterday and it seemed that he was almost using MS on CD, which is what started me thinking about the management of that CD.

I am not sure if anyone has any data on using MS more quickly, risking the uptime of Vulnerable, but I am curious to see it if it exists.

[Sencha]

3) On the pull, try to get an auto shot in and then immediately barrage.

Isn't autoshot cast during barrage? or said differently: does barrage delay autoshot?