[BEAST MASTERY]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Azortharion]

Beast Mastery.

[Keyimin]

Well, the lack of discussion on BM is disconcerting. Not so much because it's needed here, per se, but because I've also noticed how little feedback is being given in the alpha forums relative to other classes/specs. BM is destined to remain a hollow shell of herp-a-derp if Blizz doesn't get enough feedback to get its attention and push change.

[Kissthebaby]

Well, the lack of discussion on BM is disconcerting. Not so much because it's needed here, per se, but because I've also noticed how little feedback is being given in the alpha forums relative to other classes/specs. BM is destined to remain a hollow shell of herp-a-derp if Blizz doesn't get enough feedback to get its attention and push change.

everyone is basically all in on mm atm. No one already cares about survival so its basically mm or bm and bm play style isnt very fun and it just got worse this build. So mm is the saving grace hopefully.

[Huggykaze]

everyone is basically all in on mm atm. No one already cares about survival so its basically mm or bm and bm play style isnt very fun and it just got worse this build. So mm is the saving grace hopefully.

Such behaviour makes no sense. At all. If people do not show concern about BM's and SV's playstyles, we'll be left with 1 spec for the entire expansion, and God forbid it will come out as the worst in one of the tiers. If all MM needs is some polish and finetuning, then it shouldn't get so much attention, because, right now, it looks as if people were happy with other 2 specs, but super mad about MM... Just a developer point of view.

Focus on specs which are in tragic state, while not neglecting the acceptable one.

[Katchii]

I plan on playing BM as my main in Legion, regardless of play style. I play hunter to be a ranged class with a pet and the only on that gives me that is BM. I'll be sure to check out SV, but have no intention of ever touching MM since I want the pet.

We'll see how it goes, there's still a fair amount of time for them to iterate and update the specs to be fun, competitive and compelling to play.

[mediic]

I'm seeing mostly negative feedback towards BM at the moment so I thought I'd chime in. I've historically hated BM in every iteration I can remember but this is the first time that I've actually really enjoyed the playstyle, and my fellow guildy hunters feel the same way. I can see why those who currently like BM would hate the changes, I feel the same way about MM, but it feels really fresh to me and I'm digging the option of a non-GCD capped spec (my fingers are sore). I've always been attracted to the idea of playing a non-GCD capped spec where it's more about intelligent decision making than button mashing. Not to say there's much intelligent decision making to be had with Legion BM, maybe some kind of baiting for an important proc before dumping focus would be nice /shrug.

One minor thing which makes BM feel a lot better is the artifact trait reducing the focus cost on multishot, which makes beast cleave much less of an annoyance imo.
Numbers wise it feels a bit undertuned but that should be of little concern at this point.

[Keyimin]

I plan on playing BM as my main in Legion, regardless of play style. I play hunter to be a ranged class with a pet and the only on that gives me that is BM. I'll be sure to check out SV, but have no intention of ever touching MM since I want the pet.

We'll see how it goes, there's still a fair amount of time for them to iterate and update the specs to be fun, competitive and compelling to play.

My concern is that BM has seen a few alpha builds since its release, and unlike most other specs, not a thing about its abilities, talents, or core gameplay has been iterated on despite some tuning changes. Even with Celestalon's many posts about various changes in the pipeline for other class/specs, not a word about BM other than "you're focus-based, so you're not GCD locked." Erm, OK.

Now, maybe because devs knew the haste/1.5s GCD change was coming, they wanted to wait for that implementation before making a bunch of other changes. I can only hope that's the case. But I do feel like the classes/specs getting the most attention are those receiving the most feedback (or pitchfork raising lol), and I can understand why. I don't want the opportunity for substantive change to be missed, but maybe I'm getting nervous prematurely and unnecessarily.

- - - Updated - - -

I've always been attracted to the idea of playing a non-GCD capped spec where it's more about intelligent decision making than button mashing. Not to say there's much intelligent decision making to be had with Legion BM, maybe some kind of baiting for an important proc before dumping focus would be nice /shrug.

While it's very cool to hear that people who never previously enjoyed BM are now liking it, that broadening of the appeal shouldn't come at the expense of all those who've played it until now. I could write a treatise about the issues with "non-GCD capped" and "intelligent decision making" vis-a-vis alpha BM hunter, but a few people far smarter than I am about these matters have already done so elsewhere. So, I'll just say that "not to say there's much intelligent decision making to be had" is being kind as far as I can tell.

There's also a design philosophy (god, I hope there is) at work here that I can't fathom. Every DPS class/spec is now some form of a builder-spender, either via its main resource or a secondary one, with the change to Shamans from mana to Maelstrom. Hunters already had that dynamic, and now two of our specs have been changed to passive focus regen (absent the Chim talent for BM, I believe). Even freakin' rogues have combo points. What in the bloody hell is the reasoning behind this? We lost a core piece of our gameplay, building and spending focus, and it was replaced with ... nothing. The one thing BM had that gave it any kind of skill cap was Focus Fire (not that I thought it was sensible, but it was something at least). We've lost that, and it was replaced with ... nothing.

Maybe I'm just being special and not getting it. If anyone can enlighten me, I'd be more than happy to admit my derpness.

[Huggykaze]

All 3 specs are completely new though. For some reason they decided to completely change every spec. So people are going to focus on one in particular at first. Most people dont care about survival because it is melee and honestly is a terribly designed spec. So its just mm and bm. And BM's play style is pretty boring and involves a pet so that just leaves mm. No one is giving up on bm people have stated what they think needs to change with the spec and their opinions. But then you go read celestalons bit about bm and gcd nonsense and people just give up carrying about it for the time being. Basically 3 whole completely new designed specs sucks sometimes especially when people liked the old versions of the specs.

I'm one of the very few who're interested in SV, mostly because MM bored me to death in HFC, and I want to reroll melee anyway. I think late WoD beta shows that even Celestalon listens from time to time - talking about tuning problems, when Hunters managed to prove their point to always defiant dev.

Personally I think that if any Hunter spec has to be non-capped, it should be MM. Mashing buttons doesn't fit sniper to be honest. Although pet based spec also fits there. Not that I like the idea of non-capped specs, I hate it, but providing additional gameplay option is nice - just like they're doing for Enh Shamans, an option!

Anyway, I think our focus should soon shift from MM to other 2 specs, MM's in a decent place now, other 2 specs aren't. Devs won't know what's wrong if we don't shout and bite. That's how it works.

[Katchii]

Now, maybe because devs knew the haste/1.5s GCD change was coming, they wanted to wait for that implementation before making a bunch of other changes. I can only hope that's the case. But I do feel like the classes/specs getting the most attention are those receiving the most feedback (or pitchfork raising lol), and I can understand why. I don't want the opportunity for substantive change to be missed, but maybe I'm getting nervous prematurely and unnecessarily

That's a very fair concern, and I share it, and also agree that the reason the builds that ARE getting updates are those being played the most. Hopefully BM gets a little more playtime and feedback so they can start really iterating on it.

As I said before though, I'll be playing it regardless. No interest in MM as it has no pet, and SV seems fun but if I wanted to play a melee I'd have picked a melee class to begin with.

[Daetur]

Hopefully, once they extend more invites, they can get some more activity as far as feedback goes. I've not been lucky enough to pick one up myself so far, which I suppose is a shame, since I've been planning on testing BM.

[Keyimin]

Here's to hoping, Daetur, and likewise!

[threads]

Anyway, I think our focus should soon shift from MM to other 2 specs, MM's in a decent place now, other 2 specs aren't. Devs won't know what's wrong if we don't shout and bite. That's how it works.

what do you expect when you give a ranged class a melee spec. nobody wants to play it because it's just a bad idea.

and BM was already given feedback that it's boring and empty now but they have yet to do anything to it.

[Keyimin]

and BM was already given feedback that it's boring and empty now but they have yet to do anything to it.

If you've spent any time reading the feedback threads, there's a pretty general attitude among the devs that they don't want generalized complaints. I can't say that I blame them. They want details, specific criticisms, and most importantly, specific suggestions.

I've seen it enough times that I can already tell you around about what Celestalon's response would be to "it's boring and empty." "Boring and empty in what way? Can you expand on that? What, specifically, do you find boring and empty about it, and why? What would you like to see happen that would make it feel less so?"

You might like for the devs to take that criticism and go back to the drawing board to try to blindly figure out how to make it less boring and empty, but do you think they actually INTENDED it to be boring and empty in the first place? So what good would that do?

If the best effort people can give is "it's boring and empty," then they can expect about as much effort from the devs in fixing it.

[threads]

i'm not gonna bother copying and pasting all the issues here when it's already there lol

[Zeth Hawkins]

I need help understanding something. What's enjoyable or entertaining about specs that aren't GCD capped? Can't get into rogues, ferals, and monks because of this. Also, how does being GCD capped make focus "pointless" as per Celestalon's blue post? Focus feels meaningful on live.

[Keyimin]

i'm not gonna bother copying and pasting all the issues here when it's already there lol

There where? I didn't mean you should copy it here lol. My whole point is that there's a relative dearth of specific feedback in the alpha forums.

- - - Updated - - -

I need help understanding something. What's enjoyable or entertaining about specs that aren't GCD capped? Can't get into rogues, ferals, and monks because of this. Also, how does being GCD capped make focus "pointless" as per Celestalon's blue post? Focus feels meaningful on live.

Personally, I've yet to find it fun myself; however, I've heard many say that they find it enjoyable for a variety of reasons: no button mashing; planning out your big moments; having the GCD freedom to make different choices, to name a few. Not saying I agree with those assessments, just that it's the reasoning. Some people just prefer that non-button-mashing play style.

As for Celestalon's post, I've yet to make sense out of that part.

[Deleted]

I haven't been playing WoW since the SoO, however, I'm keeping one eye on it since I heard about melee hunters - I'm pointing this out if you feel my statement is somehow out of place or time, you know why.

Anyway, in Pandaria (especially in ToT) there was a raising problem of a fire mage scaling - at the entry point (fresh level 90) fire mage was extremely weak spec to play, while with gearing it amass enormous power - due to different crit scaling.
As far as I'm seeing on the paper - the very same thing might happen to BMs due to Wild Call.
At the starting levels we might both be resource hungry and "button" hungry (nothing to press). Along the road with haste (I have impression haste will both lower GCDs and CDs) and especially crits,we might found ourself in a position "Spam that Dire Beast button like there is no tomorrow" to have Beast Within uptime as high as possible.
40% crit raid buffed mid tier (aka ToT levels) is quite achievable. This puts us (with One with the Pack) at 12% chance of resetting DB with every "shot". Depending on what actually does reset KC (e.g. does Exotic Ammunition have chance to reset it? Does maybe Aspect of the Beast? aMoC? Jaws of Thunder? If it can be triggered by pet- does Hati triggers it as well? If it can't be triggered by pet- will we drop KC to dish out more "able to reset" shots?) this might end up being quite a game-changer in later tiers and, like crit on fire mages back in the time, a pain to balance the spec.

[Sencha]

I need help understanding something. What's enjoyable or entertaining about specs that aren't GCD capped? Can't get into rogues, ferals, and monks because of this.

I cannot agree more. I dropped feral because of this. Waiting for the resource to generate is not my thing.

[Huggykaze]

what do you expect when you give a ranged class a melee spec. nobody wants to play it because it's just a bad idea.

and BM was already given feedback that it's boring and empty now but they have yet to do anything to it.

Saying "boring and empty" is not a feedback. It's criticism - a bad thing. MM is receiving a whole lot of detailed feedback. BM and SV, not so much. Having a melee option is nice, but it will be useless/bad if nothing is done about it. Only we can make these specs fun to play. Focusing solely on MM, is not the best idea. If SV shapes up to outdps other 2 specs by far, you will be crying about being forced into boring spec. The same for BM.

What I agree with, is that at least one of pet specs should be GCD capped - active Focus generation. Either baseline or through talents. With no such choice, a lot of Hunters will be left with spec they do not enjoy. I'd go with SV, as there aren't many GCD capped melee spec, and BM would be the only ranged spec that's not. Something along the lines of:

Strike as One!
Level 15
Talent
Beast Mastery:
You strike in unity with your pet, generating X Focus and Y Focus for your pet, but decreasing Focus regeneration by Z% for A seconds.

Survival:
You strike in unity with your pet, generating X Focus and Y Focus for your pet.
Passive: Decreases base Focus regeneration by Z%.

^Gives BM a choice in a choice, too!

[threads]

Saying "boring and empty" is not a feedback. It's criticism - a bad thing. MM is receiving a whole lot of detailed feedback. BM and SV, not so much. Having a melee option is nice, but it will be useless/bad if nothing is done about it. Only we can make these specs fun to play. Focusing solely on MM, is not the best idea. If SV shapes up to outdps other 2 specs by far, you will be crying about being forced into boring spec. The same for BM.

too bad, cause that's what BM is now. there's no point making up ideas when you have a version of a spec that's not empty or boring already in the game.

There where? I didn't mean you should copy it here lol. My whole point is that there's a relative dearth of specific feedback in the alpha forums.

then you should probably look in the older alpha threads