Women Earning Less Than Men

[High Marshal Sigismund]

I constantly see left-wing politicians stating that women earn less than men on average, but are there any actual legitimate criticisms of this issue? Stating that they earn less isn't enough because there are reasons that men earn more.

For example, men are more willing to do hard labour than women and do dirty jobs, which tend to pay more because of occupational hazards. There are more men than women in STEM, which pay more and have more job security than other fields of work. These are contributing factors to men earning more than woman.

On the flip side, I would like to see if there is any real discrimination happening that is preventing women from being on equal footing to men. Because I am not sold on the gender wage gap issue.

[Jotaux]

It has a lot to do with career choices, wage negotiation, hours worked, etc.

The wage gap has generally been debunked and anyone using it for justification has clearly not done their research or are dishonest.

[Wyrt]

The one study that's constantly referenced doesn't take any variables other than gender into account. So it's really not accurate.

[Ryme]

It has a lot to do with career choices, wage negotiation, hours worked, etc.

The wage gap has generally been debunked and anyone using it for justification has clearly not done their research or are dishonest.

Pretty much, it exists, but it's almost never how it's reported and so they way it's reported gets debunked and no serious conversations ever occur on it. Usually it feels like a desperate plea to get the female vote and nothing more, it's awful and quite frankly insulting.

[alexkeren]

It has a lot to do with career choices, wage negotiation, hours worked, etc.

The wage gap has generally been debunked and anyone using it for justification has clearly not done their research or are dishonest.

I've yet to see any of the research done compare people based upon starting the job the same day, with the same quality of education, the same work experience and the same amount of time in internships.

Aside from that, I found it funny last fall when Carly Fiorina was talking how under a Meritocracy employment system the pay gap would disappear. Except in that type of employment system it's purely based upon your actual work, so if you aren't at work, not only don't you get paid you also are guaranteed no pay raise either.

[Darsithis]

I constantly see left-wing politicians stating that women earn less than men on average, but are there any actual legitimate criticisms of this issue? Stating that they earn less isn't enough because there are reasons that men earn more.

For example, men are more willing to do hard labour than women and do dirty jobs, which tend to pay more because of occupational hazards. There are more men than women in STEM, which pay more and have more job security than other fields of work. These are contributing factors to men earning more than woman.

On the flip side, I would like to see if there is any real discrimination happening that is preventing women from being on equal footing to men. Because I am not sold on the gender wage gap issue.

The gap they refer to isn't that men take harder jobs, it's that men and women in the same job with the same credentials and the same seniority earn different wages. However, I'm not aware of any particular studies as I don't pay close attention to the situation.

[Lenonis]

The problem is that people tend to use the "70 cents on the dollar" or whatnot that ends up a battle of argument about study design, etc.

The issue no one seems to want to discuss is that studies have reliably showed that there IS a wage gap and the question is whether it is large enough to really be considered a legitimate issue. I think the right in the US, for example, likes to trot out a study that shows only a 3 cent gap...which is still a gap and I'd ask anyone to say they'd be happy with a 3% pay cut.

At the end of the day, the issue is just simply more complex that just pay. There are issues around differences in benefits, particularly around maternity leave, which can be argued is a non-salary benefit that justifies a (slightly) lower wage. Similarly the female demographic tends to have more time away from the workforce for child rearing, which would justify a lower wage than a man who has that time filled in with relevant experience.

It's far better, IMO, to tackle this on a case-by-case basis, rather than a systemic issue as the variables end up too complex otherwise.

[Gib Lover]

The gap they refer to isn't that men take harder jobs, it's that men and women in the same job with the same credentials and the same seniority earn different wages. However, I'm not aware of any particular studies as I don't pay close attention to the situation.

That's not the gap they refer to. When people talk about the pay gap and throw around the magical $0.78 number, they are referring to the studies that include all jobs and don't factor in that they are including CEOs and dishwashers, as well as the vastly inconsistent vacation time/maternal leave.
If they refer to the numbers that are more like a few pennies difference, that is the gap you are talking about.

[Deleted]

The debate that's going on where i'm from focus on career choice and getting into top positions, rather than equal pay for the same job. I'm pretty sure that's already achieved. But in my country we've got more women that's achieved any advanced education but hold less top positions in companies, which is what the debate is currently about. There's been talks about a quota to put women in executive roles but that's been going on for years now and still no progress.

Oh and also, the debate also touch on that typical women occupations have lower wage, like nurses, cleaners, teachers etc, which means low status.

[Lenonis]

rather than equal pay for the same job. I'm pretty sure that's already achieved.

It's probably helpful to state which country -- because in the US there is still a gap even in the same roles.

There's been talks about a quota to put women in executive roles but that's been going on for years now and still no progress.

No nooooooooo no no. I am entirely against quotas. That's not the right solution to this problem. Anytime someone gets a job over someone more qualified because of something like gender or race the pendulum has swung too far.

[Fayenoor]

The gap they refer to isn't that men take harder jobs, it's that men and women in the same job with the same credentials and the same seniority earn different wages. However, I'm not aware of any particular studies as I don't pay close attention to the situation.

This does not necessarily apply to men and women doing the same job. This can apply to two men and two women doing the same job with the same experience for the same employer at the same location. How much you get paid is more a function of your individual negotiating skill than gender.

TLDR-- if you think you deserve to get more wages, negotiate with your employer better. This is why employers strongly discourage employees from sharing how much they earn with each other.

[Izalla]

The gap they refer to isn't that men take harder jobs, it's that men and women in the same job with the same credentials and the same seniority earn different wages. However, I'm not aware of any particular studies as I don't pay close attention to the situation.

That's what they spin it as, but that's not actually what it is. There was an appalling Buzzfeed video where a woman got her pay check and it was only 78% of her male coworker's and she's upset and offended and "discovers the wage gap", but that's really not what it is at all. Even a quick wikipedia (yeah yeah wikipedia) search tells you more truthful information than they present it as.

The people who say "78% for the exact same work!" are getting the number from the overall income of men and women, that really does not take the actual jobs or hours worked into account at all. It's literally just "all the money men earn in general vs all the money women earn in general."

[Svifnymr]

The debate that's going on where i'm from focus on career choice and getting into top positions, rather than equal pay for the same job. I'm pretty sure that's already achieved. But in my country we've got more women that's achieved any advanced education but hold less top positions in companies, which is what the debate is currently about. There's been talks about a quota to put women in executive roles but that's been going on for years now and still no progress.

Oh and also, the debate also touch on that typical women occupations have lower wage, like nurses, cleaners, teachers etc, which means low status.

Recently I've also seen a big increase in folks folding in "unpaid labor" into the argument. Using the point that women do 3X as much (or whatever the number really is) "unpaid labor" as men and how it's unfair.

"Unpaid labor" being chores around the house and such. If the woman cooks and cleans more than the man does, than some folks believe that a woman should get paid more in the workforce to reflect that.

[Deleted]

It's probably helpful to state which country -- because in the US there is still a gap even in the same roles.

No nooooooooo no no. I am entirely against quotas. That's not the right solution to this problem. Anytime someone gets a job over someone more qualified because of something like gender or race the pendulum has swung too far.

Sweden, sorry. Yes i'm also strongly against quotas, but it's been in the debate. I personally think it will shift with time, the old CEOs of today still live in a world where ladies should cook and clean. I'm sure the future generations will be more equal in this regard without interference.

[Deleted]

Recently I've also seen a big increase in folks folding in "unpaid labor" into the argument. Using the point that women do 3X as much (or whatever the number really is) "unpaid labor" as men and how it's unfair.

"Unpaid labor" being chores around the house and such. If the woman cooks and cleans more than the man does, than some folks believe that a woman should get paid more in the workforce to reflect that.

Never seen that. I think that studies been made shows that it's actually pretty equal in the amount of chores men and women do. Just different things, for instance it's actually pretty common that men cook here in Sweden.

[Arewn]

The gap they refer to isn't that men take harder jobs, it's that men and women in the same job with the same credentials and the same seniority earn different wages. However, I'm not aware of any particular studies as I don't pay close attention to the situation.

That is in fact, not what they are talking about.
What they are referring to is raw earnings data that show that the average earnings of men is higher then the average earnings of women. This data however does not take into consideration a slew of relevant factors, such as hours worked and position.
Studies have been done that investigate this data, attempting to include all relevant factors, narrowing the difference down to around 5% (number varies by study). This remaining gap's cause is unknown. That's right, it's not automatically "discrimination" (though some or all of it may be), but rather consists of factors that are either unknown or could not be accurately held for.
If you explore the same raw earnings data, you will also find that women "make more then" men in some situations (single working women in big cities, and young women in general, have a higher average earning then their male counterpart). You will also find "gaps" between ethnicity and age based demographics.

[alexkeren]

The problem is that people tend to use the "70 cents on the dollar" or whatnot that ends up a battle of argument about study design, etc.

The issue no one seems to want to discuss is that studies have reliably showed that there IS a wage gap and the question is whether it is large enough to really be considered a legitimate issue. I think the right in the US, for example, likes to trot out a study that shows only a 3 cent gap...which is still a gap and I'd ask anyone to say they'd be happy with a 3% pay cut.

At the end of the day, the issue is just simply more complex that just pay. There are issues around differences in benefits, particularly around maternity leave, which can be argued is a non-salary benefit that justifies a (slightly) lower wage. Similarly the female demographic tends to have more time away from the workforce for child rearing, which would justify a lower wage than a man who has that time filled in with relevant experience.

It's far better, IMO, to tackle this on a case-by-case basis, rather than a systemic issue as the variables end up too complex otherwise.

I'm fine with a 3 cent pay cut, since it's nowhere near 3%.

[Lenonis]

Never seen that. I think that studies been made shows that it's actually pretty equal in the amount of chores men and women do. Just different things, for instance it's actually pretty common that men cook here in Sweden.

It's also entirely irrelevant when you talk about income from a job. If chores around the house are unequally distributed then that's an entirely domestic issues completely at odds with anything to do with salaries.

Plus, different people manage it different ways. In my house, for instance, I hate cleaning, so rather than contribute to the daily sweeping and wiping off of countertops, etc., I pay to have the place cleaned more thoroughly once a week. That's the balance in my household which would be lost in the discussion of time spent doing chores vs salaries.

[Izalla]

Recently I've also seen a big increase in folks folding in "unpaid labor" into the argument. Using the point that women do 3X as much (or whatever the number really is) "unpaid labor" as men and how it's unfair.

"Unpaid labor" being chores around the house and such. If the woman cooks and cleans more than the man does, than some folks believe that a woman should get paid more in the workforce to reflect that.

...Wat. What about all the single men, or men who are neater than their female partner and so do more of the cleaning? That's some sexism if I've ever seen any, assume women do the cleaning and men don't.

[Lenonis]

I'm fine with a 3 cent pay cut, since it's nowhere near 3%.

Not sure if srs.

3 cents per dollar. In other words, exactly a 3% pay cut. Wage gaps are discussed in either cents per dollar earned or a percentage.