Question to Christian believers about the imperfection of human bodies.

[Deleted]

If god created us why is the human body so poorly designed?

There are literally thousands of things that could go wrong at any time. Our Knee and shoulder joints are just awfully designed as is our spines. The human skin is incredibly susceptible to thousands of diseases, rashes and problems. Virtually every human at one point experience some kind of dermal problems, be it rash eczema or fungal growth. The only thing amazing about our bodies is our brains and it too has a host of diseases and is susceptible to dangerous mental problems. Cancer is all but assured given a long enough time frame. From a design standpoint there is something wrong or imperfect with virtually every part of our bodies.

If it wasn't for modern medicine i doubt most of us would live even to our 50's.

[Mihalik]

It is typically explained away with the "Irreducible complexity" argument. The idea that the Human body is designed to be perfect. This argument comes out of simple ignorance and lack of awareness about the countless developmental dead ends and evolutionary vestigiality (like our tails, fur etc) present in the human body.

Second argument used is closely interlinked with the first one, and it claims that after humanity was thrown out of Paradise we are now living in an environment that is more hostile to human life than the original environment we were created in, as in the Garden of Eden. But again this argument also only stands if you fail to grasp the place of humans in the animal kingdom, and our evolutionary adaptations to our environment.

With one word. Ignorance.

[Deleted]

The bible says that in the beginning, everything was very good. Adam lived about a 980 years, for example. The people before Noah all lived deeply in the hundreds of years, ranging from 900-300 etc. It all got lower and lower, because of sin. Sin brought, for example, death and disease into the world, which is the reason for all the imperfections.

God is responsible for the fact of free will. Mankind is responsible for the acts of free will. In other words, all the imperfections of our body (but also all the imperfections at any level of this planet, such as society, wars, famines and what not, all the cruelty) is because of mankind's choices that have a ripple effect throughout time.

The whole world was in fact entirely different prior the great flood, compared to the destroyed world we observe right now.

I'd also like to point out that a design is only flawed if you know the intentions of the designer. The designer surely intended for people to die, otherwise he'd build our bodies differently. This may seem cruel to the unbeliever, but the believer knows that there's an afterlife of eternity, depending on your choices upon earth. This earth/universe wasn't meant to last for ever, there's a purpose to this world which doesn't require an infinite amount of time.

That's it in a nutshell atleast.

[Kaleredar]

Religious threads?

These go well.

[Deletedaccount1]

Because we are products of evolution.

There is nothing in conflict with science in that regard, so it is pointless to ask.

[Uurdz]

If god created us why is the human body so poorly designed?

There are literally thousands of things that could go wrong at any time. Our Knee and shoulder joints are just awfully designed as is our spines. The human skin is incredibly susceptible to thousands of diseases, rashes and problems. Virtually every human at one point experience some kind of dermal problems, be it rash eczema or fungal growth. The only thing amazing about our bodies is our brains and it too has a host of diseases and is susceptible to dangerous mental problems. Cancer is all but assured given a long enough time frame. From a design standpoint there is something wrong or imperfect with virtually every part of our bodies.

If it wasn't for modern medicine i doubt most of us would live even to our 50's.

No idea - i'd also like to know while childbirth has to hurt so much
Also why do people have different levels of intelligence?

[Deleted]

It is typically explained away with the "Irreducible complexity" argument. The idea that the Human body is designed to be perfect. This argument comes out of simple ignorance and lack of awareness about the countless developmental dead ends and evolutionary vestigiality (like our tails, fur etc) present in the human body.

Second argument used is closely interlinked with the first one, and it claims that after humanity was thrown out of Paradise we are now living in an environment that is more hostile to human life than the original environment we were created in, as in the Garden of Eden. But again this argument also only stands if you fail to grasp the place of humans in the animal kingdom, and our evolutionary adaptations to our environment.

With one word. Ignorance.

Asked and answered, good post

[Devilyaki]

Because Jesus, that's why!

[Deleted]

The Devil made me do it.

[Deleted]

childbirth

Read genesis and you will find out why.

[Deleted]

The bible says that in the beginning, everything was very good. Adam lived about a 980 years, for example. The people before Noah all lived deeply in the hundreds of years, ranging from 900-300 etc. It all got lower and lower, because of sin. Sin brought, for example, death and disease into the world, which is the reason for all the imperfections.

God is responsible for the fact of free will. Mankind is responsible for the acts of free will. In other words, all the imperfections of our body (but also all the imperfections at any level of this planet, such as society, wars, famines and what not, all the cruelty) is because of mankind's choices that have a ripple effect throughout time.

The whole world was in fact entirely different prior the great flood, compared to the destroyed world we observe right now.

I'd also like to point out that a design is only flawed if you know the intentions of the designer. The designer surely intended for people to die, otherwise he'd build our bodies differently. This may seem cruel to the unbeliever, but the believer knows that there's an afterlife of eternity, depending on your choices upon earth. This earth/universe wasn't meant to last for ever, there's a purpose to this world which doesn't require an infinite amount of time.

That's it in a nutshell atleast.

Indeed. Sin is like a "garbage" concept. Anything you can't explain with logic, you can attribute to sin. What sin is isn't exactly clear either, as it depends entirely on social concepts that are different from culture to culture. But it sure is convenient, so whenever you have something that is in contradiction with everything you are supposed to believe, just say sin and your mind can rationalize it away.

I don't know why Christians believe what they believe, but I think it's mostly the mind trying to protect itself from unwanted thoughts.

[Guyv3r]

It's to pay for our sins. Or so they say

[Deleted]

Indeed. Sin is like a "garbage" concept. Anything you can't explain with logic, you can attribute to sin. What sin is isn't exactly clear either, as it depends entirely on social concepts that are different from culture to culture. But it sure is convenient, so whenever you have something that is in contradiction with everything you are supposed to believe, just say sin and your mind can rationalize it away.

I don't know why Christians believe what they believe, but I think it's mostly the mind trying to protect itself from unwanted thoughts.

There is objective morality. For example, having sex with animals is always wrong. Certain cultures might say otherwise, certain cultures might practise bestiality. Having sex with animals is always wrong, for it spreads disease.

Rape is always wrong, no matter what anyone says or does. It is always wrong in every part of the world in every society despite what those societies claim or do.

Torturing babies for fun is always wrong. Always, no exception, no matter the opinion or actions of who ever.

God executed the flood upon the world because the thoughts and deeds of humanity at that time were evil and evil continually. They were doing all these wicked things, which is why diseases came into existance.

Even in these days diseases come into existance purely by human meddling.

That's an example of sin.

Christians believe what they believe either because of they grew up in a christian family and in fact have no idea what they believe and why they believe it, or they believe it because they have investigated the following matters:

They see a complex design in our body, or in our planet and its nature, or in the universe, and say a design demands a designer. A creation demands a creator. Just like a painting demands a painter, or a building demands a builder. You cannot have a design, without a designer.

The universe also had a beginning, which means it demands a beginner. Because out of absolutely nothing, nothing comes.

Further more, the morality matter. Where does objective morality come from if not from an intelligent non-human mind? Or in other words (a) God.
(The question isn't where you or I or society obtained there morals from, but the question is where does objective morality come from. In the Atheist world you cannot justify objective morality, it's just your opinion against Hitlers opinion even though the holocaust against the jews was objectively wrong no matter what people say or do. Furthermore, objective morality doesn't come from human intelligence. Most wicked evil men were very intelligent. Objective morality also doesn't come from the laws of nature. But objective morality is there. How can you call a line crooked when you have no idea of a straight line? How can you call something evil without having an idea of what's it supposed to be? And again, the question isn't where YOU got your morals from but "Where does objective morality come from".)

Furthermore the death and ressurection of jesus christ. There are many scholars and even homocide (spelling error) detectives and what not who studied the new testament and come to the following conclusion: You cannot guarantee the truth of the new testimony with 100% certainty but it is more reasonable to believe it's all true than not. What there reasoning is, try to youtube it.

Furthermore, biblical prophecy.

If you wonder well who created God? No one. He created time space and matter, he trancends time space and matter. He's a timeless, inmaterial spaceless entity with an incredible intelligent mind. God never had a beginning. He always was, is and shall always be.

But to sum it up, I as a Christian believe in God because:

Complex design of everything
Objective morality
Science and philosophy
The death and ressurection of Jesus Christ
The incoherence and lack of reasonable intelligent proof for atheism (it's usually emotional arguements against God rather than intellectual)

And the thing that makes it a 100% certaintity for ME that God exists, a piece of evidence an atheist will never receive unless he'd turn towards God, is the witness of the holy spirit. I literally feel its pressence.

Speakers on these subjects I can recommend are Frank Turek and William Craig Lane. Browse their youtube channels or websites some time. No matter what you think of it, they speak on interesting subjects.

Edit: With all of that said, do not waste your time trying to refute what I am saying. My arguments are presented in a nutshell and are elaborated on by PhD folk giving hours upon ours of lectures to flesh these things out. I'm not going into detail here at all, but hence I recommended some speakers on these topics ^^ it's interesting, I promise.

[Deletedaccount1]

Edit: With all of that said, do not waste your time trying to refute what I am saying. My arguments are presented in a nutshell and are elaborated on by PhD folk giving hours upon ours of lectures to flesh these things out. I'm not going into detail here at all, but hence I recommended some speakers on these topics ^^ it's interesting, I promise.

This thread shouldn't even exist but people still make religion threads every day for some reason.

[Dezerte]

Don't expect any non-fallacious argument as an answer. And with that, this thread isn't going to end well, unless you are just genuinely interested in how they think.

[Deleted]

just genuinely interested

If this is indeed the case then you're free to PM me. With that said, I shall withdraw from this thread.

[Sethanor]

snip

first and most important: i DONT want to hate on religion or convince you that you are "wrong" or anything, this is just a discussion... if everyone would accept everyone else's opinions about religion, we wouldnt need to have a lot of conflicts.
i dont claim that my view on this is "the only one" or "the right one" but it is what i believe.

objective morality as you discribe it, seems like what humans created ...
look to the animal kingdom. they dont give a s*** about morality, they just live as their instincts tell them to.

this may sound quite brutal, but all you discribed as "objective morality" is just what humans over time established to be "ok".
stoneage frank didnt give a shit about "rape not being morally ok", he just did whatever he wanted ... you said that objective morality doesnt come from intelligence, so WHY did humans used to do such stuff?

as for your reasons to believe ... i can also turn those around for why i dont believe:
Complex design of everything -> Evolution
Objective morality -> see above, just something humans established over time
Science and philosophy -> also created by humans
The death and ressurection of Jesus Christ -> there MIGHT was a dude ~2k years ago who was "different", but as the bible is full of lies (for example birthday dates), i dont think that a book written (and re-written) by random humans should be taken as the foundation of all your decissions. (same goes for every religious text ... most of them were altered to benefit certain cercumstances during that time and have nothing to with what actually happened)
The incoherence and lack of reasonable intelligent proof for atheism (it's usually emotional arguements against God rather than intellectual) -> that doesnt really makes sense though ... you assume that believing in god/bible is the "normal" thing, when it only existed for ~2k years. in my opinion it is religious people who need to proof that their theory is correct.
(random example for that: i don't need to proof that i can NOT fly, and people still believe me, but not the other way around)

i give you one thing though: there are a LOT of so called "atheists" who just say they are to piss religious people off or for some other stupid reason.

please dont be offended by this, but just think about it -> what IS religion?
It's when addults fight over who has the coolest imaginary friend

[volescue]

The beautiful thing about religion is it has a blanket reason for anything that is broken, wrong, or imperfect.

Sin.

Why was Hitler allowed to commit so many atrocities? Sin.
Why do good people die from horrible ailments? Sin.
Why does evil get rewarded while good gets the shaft? Sin.

Sin. Sin. Sin.

[Muadiib]

The physical creation is fallen and in entropy, God did not create it that way, that is a product of sin aka rebellion. There's a lot more to it than that but that's the answer succinctly. Jesus is the cure.

[Deleted]

If you want the best elaboration, or answer to what you're saying, try Frank Turek or William Craig Lane's lectures.

please dont be offended by this, but just think about it -> what IS religion?
It's when addults fight over who has the coolest imaginary friend

I'm not offended. I'm not even offended when people say the most evil and degrading things about my Lord. Christians are told (by the bible) to pray for them rather than behead them and rape their wifes. But with that said, I agree with you that religion is stupid and dangerous on many occasions. After all, it were religious people that crucified Jesus Christ. I'm more about truth and I find that in a reasonable fashion the biblical God gets the closest to it after all I've seen and studied (and I promised, I have looked at many things. Also at what Dawkins and Hitchens have to say, but also Islam etc). I'm 25 and only a Christian for about 9 or 10 months now and Christianity and the biblical God is the only thing that makes sense to me after carefull cross-examination. Fun fact: it also blew my mind that I came to believe this stuff but I can't get around it anylonger :P I believe that God exists and I believe that he's my saviour. And it feels darn good.

Now I withdraw really from this thread, got a lot of studying to do...