Combat Rogue food?

[Galbrei]

What food should combat rogues be eating for raids? I've read guides saying 125 Haste food, others point to 125 Multistrike and Icyveins even says Felmouth Frenzy, regardless of single-target or multi-target fights. Any help would be much appreciated here.

[Deleted]

Haste. Always Haste.

[Stillis]

Hmm you sure Riff?

I thought Haste was for single target, and multistrike was for AoE.
And since combat only is viable for AoE multistrike should be better?

I haven't tested this, only read about it here and there.

[Galbrei]

I just tested it on Shadowcraft. It says Haste is better than Multi, but I dunno if it's taking AoE into consideration or not... and it says Felmouth Frenzy is better than both and I dunno what to make of that one.

[Stillis]

Im pretty sure shadowcraft sims on single-target.

It's probably possible to change it to multiple enemies tho. Think you can do that in simcraft, not sure tho.

[Daun]

I think on Icy Veins it says Felmouth is better for single and multi target fights as combat too. Other than that, since haste is the best stat for combat, I would gander haste being better than multistrike food.

[Todesbote]

Haste. Always Haste.

Wrong. Stop spreading false information.


@Galbrei:

A good idea is always to use Simcraft to determine your stat weights for any given fight. Whatever stat gives you the highest value - use that buff food.

If you don't want to do that a general rule of thumb for Combat Rogues is:
Single-target -> use Haste
3-Target Cleave -> use Haste OR Multistrike depending on kill priorities
>3 Target AoE -> use Multistrike

[Deleted]

Wrong. Stop spreading false information.


@Galbrei:

A good idea is always to use Simcraft to determine your stat weights for any given fight. Whatever stat gives you the highest value - use that buff food.

If you don't want to do that a general rule of thumb for Combat Rogues is:
Single-target -> use Haste
3-Target Cleave -> use Haste OR Multistrike depending on kill priorities
>3 Target AoE -> use Multistrike

I am not spreading false information.

Haste IS the best food for combat. People use Multistrike so they don't have to re-enchant their gear each time or maintain 2 sets of gear.

[InfinityRogue]

I am not spreading false information.

Haste IS the best food for combat. People use Multistrike so they don't have to re-enchant their gear each time or maintain 2 sets of gear.

Wrong. Stop spreading false information. The reason people use multistrike isn't because they are lazy or don't want two sets of gear; they use it because its the best stat for combat cleave.

The reason why people use multistrike is because the entire point of the combat spec is to cleave targets. Single target for combat is useless, and if you really are using combat as your single target spec, then the last thing you need to be micromanaging is what kind of food you are eating.

While haste is the best stat for singlet target combat fights (not optimal or acceptable for high level raiding) multistrike surpasses haste at around 4 targets and becomes the best stat from that point forward. There is some nuance to this and it is gear dependent but that is the basic rule for stat values.

For this tier, you should play subtlety for single target and combat for aoe. You can safely gem and enchant for multistrike with both.

[Deleted]

Wrong. Stop spreading false information. The reason people use multistrike isn't because they are lazy or don't want two sets of gear; they use it because its the best stat for combat cleave.

The reason why people use multistrike is because the entire point of the combat spec is to cleave targets. Single target for combat is useless, and if you really are using combat as your single target spec, then the last thing you need to be micromanaging is what kind of food you are eating.

While haste is the best stat for singlet target combat fights (not optimal or acceptable for high level raiding) multistrike surpasses haste at around 4 targets and becomes the best stat from that point forward. There is some nuance to this and it is gear dependent but that is the basic rule for stat values.

For this tier, you should play subtlety for single target and combat for aoe. You can safely gem and enchant for multistrike with both.

I am NOT spreading false information. Feel free to come to the Rogue IRC/Discord and we can actually discuss the numbers behind it if you wish.

[Geoffar]

Hmmm listen to the guy with 25 Mythic Archi kills or some other random dudes? Such a hard decision.

[Stillis]

Riff is probably right, this guy knows his class

ps.

What is this rogue discord? Where's the address.

[Todesbote]

Hmmm listen to the guy with 25 Mythic Archi kills or some other random dudes? Such a hard decision.

It's obviously up to you who you listen to, but let me warn you: riphie is an obvious and proven forum troll who "hates the stupidity of MMO-C forums" (said by him on Discord). Check his post history. It's full of trolling, spreading of false information and derailing discussions.

By the way. Just because I don't link to my armory that doesn't mean that I don't have a comparable amount of Mythic Archimonde kills. Just letting you know, not that it matters in any way to this discussion. If you are still in doubt I'd advise you to read @RylixTV 's (Rogue of Nihilum, World #15 guild) elaborate guide on Combat Rogue: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Guide-for-6-2

This is where he writes about stat values:

For single target haste is the best stat, however, the more targets enter the fight the better multistrike becomes. This favors going for multistrike as it is the best stat for combat AoE and Subtlety single target.

Any reputable Rogue will tell you this and he will also tell you to use this as a rule of thumb and to use Simcraft to find more accurate results for any given fight (duration, number of adds, life-span of adds). Maybe riphie will tell you otherwise, for reasons I already brought up.

So let me iterate: I don't give a **** who you listen to, make up your own mind. I'm telling you it's not a good idea to listen to riphie because he spreading false information. It probably is a good advice for everyone on this forum to ignore his posts.

[Deleted]

It's obviously up to you who you listen to, but let me warn you: riphie is an obvious and proven forum troll who "hates the stupidity of MMO-C forums" (said by him on Discord). Check his post history. It's full of trolling, spreading of false information and derailing discussions.

Good joke.

I think you'll find the majority of my posts on MMO-C were back at the start of the expansion when I spent a lot of my time helping Enhancement Shamans.

And please show this proof that I am a "troll"? Or are you just spouting shit because someone actually has the balls to actually have formed a reasonable difference of opinion based on math?

Given you seem to know that I am on Discord/IRC, feel free to let yourself be known so we can have a reasonable discussion about this. Or just post on MMO-C a bunch of pointless comments about me. Up to you.

[InfinityRogue]

Good joke.

I think you'll find the majority of my posts on MMO-C were back at the start of the expansion when I spent a lot of my time helping Enhancement Shamans.

And please show this proof that I am a "troll"? Or are you just spouting shit because someone actually has the balls to actually have formed a reasonable difference of opinion based on math?

Given you seem to know that I am on Discord/IRC, feel free to let yourself be known so we can have a reasonable discussion about this. Or just post on MMO-C a bunch of pointless comments about me. Up to you.

The saddest thing about this thread is that some poor unknowing rogue actually thinks you have any clue what you are talking about because you are 13/13M. Not every person on these threads brings up our progression or guild ranking, because some of the best theorycrafters and rogue community leaders don't even raid anymore. I played in the #2 US guild and have had over 20 rank 1 parses for rogue, involving all three specs. I have all of those in game achievements, but it doesn't mean anything when it comes to theorycrafting. While I am often right about certain aspects of the class, I have been proven wrong many times by those who had a superior knowledge of the class or a particular mechnaic, even though I had many world record parses.

So, basically, don't trust anyone on the forum who doesn't have math to back it up. Math and actual results mean a lot more than someone's current progress or ranking.

With all of that being said, I don't think you are an asshole, you are just mistaken and are spreading your misinformation. Here is the actual answer the original poster was looking for:

I used the basic tier 18M profile on simulationcraft and simmed 10,000 parses as combat and had it run scale factors for haste and multistrike with 1,3,5, and 7 targets.

With 1 target we see the expected results of Haste>Multi with a scale factor of 8.71>7.80


With 3 targets we see the expected results of Multi>Haste with a scale factor of 17.49>15.73


With 5 targets we see the expected results of Multi>Haste with a scale factor of 30.47>23.68


And finally with 7 targets we see the same expected results of Multi>Haste with a scale factor of 40.29>32.23


This isn't magic, smoke and mirrors, or some conspiracy. This is the EXPECTED result that has led rogues to move to multistrike for combat. As I mentioned in the previous posts, multistrike passes haste as the primary stat for combat as soon as you start to cleave (which is the only time you should be playing combat to begin with). Therefore, multistrike is always the preferred stat for combat rogues.

Not only do 40,000 simulations with Simcraft back up my previous statements by showing that multistrike is the superior stat, but the simulation tool is actually skewed in favor of haste to begin with (and it STILL calculates that multistrike is better). The simulator doesn't take into account any downtime or points in a fight where you might not actual be hitting a target (it assumes you will always have something to hit). What this actually means is that haste is OVERVALUED because anytime that you are not hitting a target, you are energy capping and that means that haste loses all of its value and spends some of the fight being a useless stat. Multistrike is never useless because part of its calculated value is not based around 100% uptime (which is impossible). It simply is factored on the amount of swings you have at any given time on a target and downtime does not effect the simulated scale factor of multistrike the same way it does with haste (because part of haste's value comes from the energy regeneration component that can be useless any time you are energy capped).

[Deleted]

The saddest thing about this thread is that some poor unknowing rogue actually thinks you have any clue what you are talking about because you are 13/13M. Not every person on these threads brings up our progression or guild ranking, because some of the best theorycrafters and rogue community leaders don't even raid anymore.

I would like to point out I never brought anything up about this, nor did I claim it as any sort of evidence.

[InfinityRogue]

I would like to point out I never brought anything up about this, nor did I claim it as any sort of evidence.

I meant to include that in my post. It's not actually your fault at all, nor should you have to apologize for being in a 13/13M guild. It is really more a problem with people automatically assuming ZOMG 13/13 MUST BE RIGHTTTTT!!!

[metalslave]

I'm with 730 ilvl starting mythic. Simcraft keeps suggesting me to enchant warsong (haste) over frostwolf (multistrike), even if I set 3-4 targets on simulation.

What you guys think about fights like Iskar where let's say 60% of fight is single and 40% is AoE? Multi still the way to go?

Infinity, your comments are welcome.

[InfinityRogue]

I'm with 730 ilvl starting mythic. Simcraft keeps suggesting me to enchant warsong (haste) over frostwolf (multistrike), even if I set 3-4 targets on simulation.

What you guys think about fights like Iskar where let's say 60% of fight is single and 40% is AoE? Multi still the way to go?

Infinity, your comments are welcome.

I run haste enchant on weapons even though Multistrike is the best stat because haste is still the second best stat, and the haste enchant is just a better enchant overall.

If you notice, most of the enchants for WoD are something like "Increase x stat by 500 for 6 seconds" followed by some other condition to extend the duration. The haste enchant works differently and increases haste by 1000 and then diminishing by 10% every 2 seconds. It just happens that this effect is more powerful than the others and since haste is close to as good as multistrike for combat, it ends up being the best enchant. It's really close to the multistrike enchant though, and effects dps by less than .2% overall.

For example, on a 7 target fight (which should favor multistrike significantly) the haste enchant rogue profile does 314,572 dps, while the multistrike enchant profile does 314,066 dps, a whopping difference of 0.16%. It's safe to assume that the haste enchant is just a better overall choice because it is a better proc whether you have 1 target or 7.

This doesn't get into the more complex discussion of using a dagger to cleave targets (more poison procs) and whether or not you can maintain three daggers with two different enchants (two multistrike for sub, and one with haste for combat cleaving). In the event that you only have 2 daggers of equal ilvl, it would be best to leave them with the multistrike enchant, and to cleave with one in the main hand on big combat pulls. This is a much more complicated situation that is best left for another thread, though.

[metalslave]

Thanks for the feedback Infinity. This warsong vs Frostwof dilemma was hurting me! To add a bit of salt on this debate, I was checking top parsers on Mythic HF Assault anda I would say that 90% of top rogues was using double frostwolf. You can check that on buff procs.