How do you get highskilled players and lowskilled players to work together?

[SodiumChloride]

Black Desert has a very interesting PVP mode in their BGs.

The more people you kill, the more points you get. The points contribute to your team's overall points. The team that has the most points at the end of the time limit, wins.

Here is the catch. If you die, you lose the points and the people who killed you get them - If I'm right the points pass from player to player upon death.

If you are a noob, technically you aren't really a problem to your team. Because you suck, you won't have all that many points anyway, so your deaths aren't a big deal.

Long ass video where I learned of this system,

[Granyala]

I see plenty of Mythic dungeons rolling out all day around 700 ilvl, it should be no issue for your friend to close the remaining 5 ilvl gap.

Seen plenty of M dungeons @685 too.

[Allenseiei]

There really isn't a foolproof way to do this. People tend to be around people that think, act or share similar things.

High skill players revolve their game through hard and punishing content. Low skilled players don't. It's a completely different mindset and people have less patience towards people who don't share their mindsets. You just have to see some sayings like: "If you want to be successful remove people that hinder you", "Always surround yourself with people that make in you improve", etc.

Creating activities that they share can only be done by dividing by the lowest denominator, which is for the low skilled player, since creating content that's hard for low skilled player will always mean the higher skilled players will be carrying them and not everyone likes doing the responsibilities of others.

[Traveler Voltin]

Perma ban elitists

[Allenseiei]

The problem I see with that is currently the floor is to raised to start with. There are players who are looking to improve. Rarely does more then a few days go by I receive a tell asking for advice on certain fights or how to properly expend X cd in situation Y. It isn't so much that the top level of play is unwelcoming it feels at least from my perspective that the first few steps of the game are to simple.

I disparage lfr that isn't exactly a hidden fact but my reasons for doing so is I see it as a detriment to new players rather then a boom. This idea that has slowly been growing since the end of cata that all content must be made toothless just doesn't yield anything long term. Players need to die. They need to fail. They need to feel threatened ideally this occurs in solo play then carries over to group play. The biggest problem I see with current wow is until a new player steps in mythic dungeons or normal raids the game instills into them a sense of invincibility that any enemy will simply fall before them. Once they enter a mode where some level of skill is required it has to be jarring. Suddenly the moronic buffoon of a boss shouting empty threats is wreaking terrible damage and deaths throughout the raid.

I think wow needs a gentler progression curve. I would make normal and lfr reward the same gear and then have non tourist mode start with heroic dungeons tuning them somewhere around tbc/cata levels then building from there.

I agree with your reasoning on the learning curve. It's completely flat until normal mode + raiding where it starts spiking with huge curve coefficients. People suddenly stumble into a wall too steep to climb over, give up and cry or unsubscribe.

[Santti]

I'm not sure there much any game developer can do, without resorting to something like reducing difficulty to triviality. It's largely what the players themselves have to deal between each other.

I'd love to if the more skilled ones didn't expect others to perform the same they do, while at the same time, the lower skilled ones being able to take feedback without being offended and feeling insulted, assuming the feedback given was sincere and not rammed down your throat (happens sometimes).

Personally, I don't really care anymore about the performance of others, even if it affects me in some way. I prefer guilds that do raiding in rather lax manner, that do it mostly for the social aspect of it. Tank shows up drunk? Get him on skype and let's go. Naturally, the progress is slow, but that's fine, as long as we are laughing while we do it.

I don't feel like getting all angry and tense about other's failures anymore in game environment. I was a bit like that in the past.

[Allenseiei]

I'm not sure there much any game developer can do, without resorting to something like reducing difficulty to triviality. It's largely what the players themselves have to deal between each other.

I'd love to if the more skilled ones didn't expect others to perform the same they do, while at the same time, the lower skilled ones being able to take feedback without being offended and feeling insulted, assuming the feedback given was sincere and not rammed down your throat (happens sometimes).

Personally, I don't really care anymore about the performance of others, even if it affects me in some way. I prefer guilds that do raiding in rather lax manner, that do it mostly for the social aspect of it. Tank shows up drunk? Get him on skype and let's go. Naturally, the progress is slow, but that's fine, as long as we are laughing while we do it.

I don't feel like getting all angry and tense about other's failures anymore in game environment. I was a bit like that in the past.

We achieved garrosh hc server first with half the raid drunk and the other with hang over because of a guild meet, rofl.

[Deleted]

They pay me, i carry them. Thats how we work together.

[SoulSoBreezy]

The question is flawed. You're asking people to work together and it's not a matter of being skilled or not skilled, but being a jerk and not-jerk. Like I said earlier, this is an anthropology question. It isn't easy to fix people.
In an attempt to answer your question though? Remove skill from the equation. Nothing good comes to mind that really brings players together, with the closest being a quel'danas style of community progression.

[PaladinBash]

I meet them everywhere. Hell in my guild, a lot of people are less skilled than me and I don't care. I have found that worrying about the skill level of people is something shitties do a lot more than not. I'm talking about the people just scratching by, reading some forums and never thinking for themselves...who soak up gear and do adequate DPS to beat encounters. There are loads of these people in every guild. I would argue almost every single DPS and at least half of all healers fall into this player level. Mediocre players are very common and if they weren't around, I wouldn't be raiding at all because there'd never be enough people to reliably fill a roster. That's the reality.

It's these people that are fucking obsessed with player skill and ability because at their level, there's huge variances of ability. They are desperate to stand out and they know they're only there in the raid because there is nobody better around. They're usually scared of being replaced or benched or just generally being thought of as sucking and try to constantly outdo each other. These are the people obsessed with player skill.

If you want to see a mixture of high and low skilled players working together, look at your average guild. Hell look at almost every guild. There will be a huge difference of skill levels but so long as people just don't fuck up mechanics and push their buttons, it's usually enough to eventually overcome everything with enough gear. Yeah that doesn't sound flashy or cool but it's working just fine.

[Heladys]

Have incentives that the high-skill players (xmogs, pets, mounts) can be interested in, while at the same time ensuring the low-skill players aren't *too much* of a burden upon them.

[Egregious]

All those things you stated (except bronze/silver) require pretty good motor control and precise mouse aiming. WoW raiding does not. I'm not saying players aren't bad - I'm saying they have the innate ability to be heroic raiders. Raiding isn't challenging - only the logistics are. The problem is that Blizz does a shit job teaching new players because 90% of the game is easy enough to play with a SNES controller.

Awareness and execution, like in MoBAs, are what make raiding hard, not the nitty-gritty of personal expectation. WoW PvE share many similar elements with MoBAs which determine your success. Knowledge of your and other's abilities, awareness of yourself, positioning, and mechanics, a broad attention span, etc. All of these things one could argue are not challenging in and of themselves... but that's not the point and arguing in that fashion is obtuse.

- - - Updated - - -

And yet people are asking for a return to the old skill tree so people can select the skills they like, but if they do, and they are not using the ideal cookie cutter build, they are considered a scrub or doing it wrong.

This is a fault of the game design. It gives the illusion of choice when there is none. People complaining about more prunning yet there has never been any real choices. If people wants to perform to an acceptable level, they cannot choose the build. The build has been decided already.

But this is another topic for another discussion.

No. Selecting different talents to attempt to change a meta or achieve a specific niche =/= selecting talents that make you feel good or that you have not considered thoroughly. There was a lot of niche shit you could do with the old talent trees that are entirely gone today.

[Deleted]

@OP title:

You don't!

[Heladys]

You can also give them a collective goal to work toward. Stuff like the opening of AQ or the races to do similar things drew vast participation even among non-raiders for whom opening a raid held no interest.

[fiestatastic]

WoD already did this with 20 man mythic. I mean ofc they lost millions of subs first, people who weren't willing to put up with it, but in the end the die-hards that have stayed are obv willing to work together across skill levels. I've been in several different mythic groups at this point, and every one of them has had outstanding players coupled with the worst players I've ever seen play any video game ever, so they did it .... this is happening right now in mythic raids everywhere.

EDIT: every one of them was an exaggeration. Only 2 have had the worst, the others just some that aren't good. but the point is the same, varying skill levels have been playing together to get 20

[Bosen]

I believe the thought of bringing all players together just doesn't work positive here.

You are right.

[Sylv_]

Make the low skilled players high skilled players.
No one likes carrying shitters.

[Osmeric]

Make the low skilled players high skilled players.
No one likes carrying shitters.

Blizzard has been a long quest for the Cure For Bad, but hasn't found it yet.

[therayeffect]

The question is flawed. You're asking people to work together and it's not a matter of being skilled or not skilled, but being a jerk and not-jerk. Like I said earlier, this is an anthropology question. It isn't easy to fix people.
In an attempt to answer your question though? Remove skill from the equation. Nothing good comes to mind that really brings players together, with the closest being a quel'danas style of community progression.

If skill is removed, we get things like Garrisons and people flee the game in droves because they're bored. The only real way people are going to work together is if people change. I think people just need to understand newbs gonna newb. People also need to learn to play better and actually try since everyone's time is valuable. Basically, less elitists and less shitters would be the best 'reasonable' outcome.

They pay me, i carry them. Thats how we work together.

Ahaha, this made me laugh. This is probably the 'best' way. The guild I'm in has like 8M gold from Mythic sale runs and that doesn't include the personal gold we've all made from heroic/'chieve/mount runs.

[Sylv_]

Blizzard has been a long quest for the Cure For Bad, but hasn't found it yet.

Cure for bad? They literally encourage it, they embrace it. The game is catered to being bad. There is nothing unforgiving in the world, nothing that is a true challenge.

Their cure has been to propagate their game to every single person who would even have the remotest of interest. They do this to make money. Easy game, more fanbase.

Too hard? People don't play that are no where near skill cap.