Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[kary]

It had more to do with the developers not being satisfied with instances such as Maraudon, BRD and Sunken Temple. Honestly, comparing the raiding of Vanilla and TBC with that of nowadays is hard. As I said, Vanilla and TBC was more about preparation, rather than execution while Cata onward was more about execution rather than preparation.

Kinda yea.
But we shouldnt act like preparation (gear) doesn't matter in current raids. Main difference between current and back then was the amount of loot per boss. 2/40 compared to 6/25 is huge. The game was focused more towards sinking time to accomplish anything. Things like resistance farming didn't test your skill as a player, but your patience as a farmer, lol.

[goibonuden]

For instance, shadow priests didn't even exist - you were better off specing into Smite while Survival was more of a utility tree then anything else.

Don't know if I misunderstood this, but what do you mean shadow priest didn't exist? In vanilla they were borderline OP in pvp, and definitely viable in pve. Raids Usually only took 1 shadowpriest, but that 1 shadowpriest was very valuable as he buffed the warlocks shadow damage by 15%. (which is why they only took 1, the buff was raid-wide.) they also healed their whole group by 30% of damage dealt.

[Eleccybubb]

Yup - Fire mages weren't a thing until very late AQ 40 and early Naxx because the bosses had Fire resit and a boss in AQ needed to be frozen to be destroyed (forgot the name). The biggest problem was that the classes and the talent trees were underdeveloped and were weird as hell. For instance, shadow priests didn't even exist - you were better off specing into Smite while Survival was more of a utility tree then anything else.

The true magic came when you were able to mix talents because the trees weren't as deep as Wrath. Elementalist mages such as Vurtne were scary as hell and a properly-built and geared Ret was able to wreck face. The true Golden age of such hybrid specs was TBC, though.

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You were great utility classes in PvE and powerhouses in PvP if played correctly but I get what you are saying. That had more to do with the trees themselves, rather then the underlying idea.

Problem with Survival is they designed it as a melee spec early on then just didn't bother with it. Lacerate was the worst talent ever.

[kary]

Kind of saddens me. Like anyone actually takes the time to admire the assets in these raids. I understand that Blizz tries to meet certain quality standards in terms of raid design but ultimately I and I think many others would probably prefer more content over lovely unique paintings in every room of a raid. I mean how often do people in a raid actually pause and look at their surroundings?

But maybe that's just me.

I do actually. I'm still torn between whether or not I like the new way things are being done. On one hand, I'd like more instances, but on the other hand, I appreciate what goes into these instances, and I know to myself i'd be pissed off running 40 different instances.

I don't know what model i'd prefer, honestly.

Though, scaling instance level technology would be great if they applied it to all 5mans (raids are a different beast, though)

[Triks]

Kinda yea.
But we shouldnt act like preparation (gear) doesn't matter in current raids. Main difference between current and back then was the amount of loot per boss. 2/40 compared to 6/25 is huge. The game was focused more towards sinking time to accomplish anything. Things like resistance farming didn't test your skill as a player, but your patience as a farmer, lol.

It wasn't just about getting the needed pre-raid gear but I get what you are saying. See, Vanilla and TBC were designed to be RPGs (TBC less so with the added arena crap) and in RPGs your skill is about how well you can build your character and how you can structure your team in the best way possible to beat the boss. It is more strategy than tactics and I can see why some people wouldn't like it.

Personally, I don't like the new raiding model because it doesn't feel like an RPG anymore - it's more of an action game and a mediocre one at that. Wrath was the best middle ground where the bosses still had cool abilities but you could ignore them if you were clever with your raid composition or character-building.

[goibonuden]

Problem with Survival is they designed it as a melee spec early on then just didn't bother with it. Lacerate was the worst talent ever.

It's true, lacerate and the early survival tree was probably the most useless talent spec in the history of the game. But when they reworked that in 1.7, the new survival tree was decent in pvp and in late raid tiers it was also viable because of its awesome scaling with the % extra agility.

[Trunksee]

I disagree. I've seen Molten Core to Blackwing Lair videos and it looked piss easy. Naxx however looked insanely challenging and fun. The early 40 man raids were fun because it was 40 people but in no way do they look challenging. Mechanic wise the game is harder today.

your right the game is way more complex now. The thing everyone leaves out is how insanely low health pools were in comparison to damage take. That's where the difficulty comes from. A lot of things did not have a you get a second or third chance mechanic.

blow up in the wrong spot and fly to high fall damage kills you. Don't bandage on some fights your healer runs out of mana.

[kary]

It wasn't just about getting the needed pre-raid gear but I get what you are saying. See, Vanilla and TBC were designed to be RPGs (TBC less so with the added arena crap) and in RPGs your skill is about how well you can build your character and how you can structure your team in the best way possible to beat the boss. It is more strategy than tactics and I can see why some people wouldn't like it.

Personally, I don't like the new raiding model because it doesn't feel like an RPG anymore - it's more of an action game and a mediocre one at that. Wrath was the best middle ground where the bosses still had cool abilities but you could ignore them if you were clever with your raid composition or character-building.

You're somehow implying that tactics and structure don't happen in raids today.

[Triks]

Don't know if I misunderstood this, but what do you mean shadow priest didn't exist? In vanilla they were borderline OP in pvp, and definitely viable in pve. Raids Usually only took 1 shadowpriest, but that 1 shadowpriest was very valuable as he buffed the warlocks shadow damage by 15%. (which is why they only took 1, the buff was raid-wide.) they also healed their whole group by 30% of damage dealt.

It was a joke that you guys were rare, apologies if didn't come off right. You were scary in PvP.

Problem with Survival is they designed it as a melee spec early on then just didn't bother with it. Lacerate was the worst talent ever.

Yeah that's why it was adopted as the "utility" tree.

[Deleted]

Though, scaling instance level technology would be great if they applied it to all 5mans (raids are a different beast, though)

If they actually got the scaling to a level where it wouldn't be just mundane 20 minute rushes that'd be totally amazing.

I miss huge dungeons like BRD, though. As much as I liked Everbloom in terms of visuals and gameplay, it's still just an elaborate tube that you can run through in 20 minutes (probably way less). I miss optional stuff. I miss doing just one boss and ignoring the end boss. I miss going into a dungeon and asking "anyone up for the postman". "Hey this group is working really well, if you want we can clear the [strath] live side after we're done with Baron." I don't know man. The dungeons felt so much more worldly and less like ... you know ... optimally designed, streamlined dungeons.

The quests for them were all over the place but the rewards made them worthwhile. Nowadays you queue for it, get ported to the entrance, pick up all the quests, rush through in 10 minutes and are already annoyed by the thought of possibly having to do that shit another 10 times before you're ready for raids.

"Hey I need 5 pristine black Diamonds, anyone up for help?" "Sure, if we can also kill Incendius." "Can I get dibs on Essence of Fire? I'd tank then!" "I need to get to the forge, if we can do that I'm also in." "Could we do Onyxia attunement quest?" "Hell no! Get lost!"

Holy shit man. These dungeons were so absurdly relevant and fun.

[Triks]

You're somehow implying that tactics and structure don't happen in raids today.

I am not implying anything. Nowadays tactics are more important than strategy because that's now the raids are designed.

Strategy = the things you do before the pull
Tactics = the way you execute the fight

[kary]

I am not implying anything. Nowadays tactics are more important than strategy because that's now the raids are designed.

Strategy = the things you do before the pull
Tactics = the way you execute the fight

...do you only raid lfr/ zergs? Because there's a lot of pre-pull preparation

[goibonuden]

It was a joke that you guys were rare, apologies if didn't come off right. You were scary in PvP.

Ah, I did misunderstand then, my bad. ^^

[Triks]

...do you only raid lfr/ zergs? Because there's a lot of pre-pull preparation

I will try to explain it in easy terms.

Getting 8 tanks for Naxx 40, farming resist gear, getting consumables, getting gimmicky gear/researching a gimmicky spec for the fight - that's strategy and that's what Vanilla emphasised. The challenge wasn't the boss fight itself but the numbers you had to meet before you faced the boss.

Nowadays the emphasis is more on the tactics - the way you execute the encounter, rather than the preceding planning.

That's not to say there aren't overlaps - Nefarian in Cata was beaten with strategy (stacking bears) while the first boss in BWL is more about the tactics i.e. you can't farm/brute force your way though it.

Different but equal. Hope it makes sense.

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Ah, I did misunderstand then, my bad. ^^

:P .

[goibonuden]

...do you only raid lfr/ zergs? Because there's a lot of pre-pull preparation

He only said it had more strategy and less tactics than today. Back then pre-pull preparation could take months

[Thimagryn]

You're somehow implying that tactics and structure don't happen in raids today.

Er, he implied that raids today are more focused on tactics than strategy. I can't see how you could have read the opposite there.

And preparation is in terms of having the group composition right for the fight, which wholly does not matter today with the 'bring the player' design philosophy. Case in point, you needed multiple priests to mind control the orbs in Razuvius' fight in Naxx. If your raid did not have 4 priests, you could not do the fight properly. Having one of each class to maximize buffs was also a large factor, especially considering some class buffs only lasted 5 minutes and had to be rebuffed mid-fight. Then there's encounters with high amounts of element damage, requiring specific resistance gear to be farmed for everyone. That's what preparation means, not just 'preparing for a pull'.

[kary]

I'm just in awe that people missed farming for months to get an arbitrary resistance number to be able to complete an encounter.
Anyway people can derive pleasure from sticking metal rods inside their urethras so fun is totally in the eye of the beholder.

Apart from spine of deathwing world first progression, there havent been any logistics focus fighs, which is (in my opinion) a step in the right direction.
It was fun seeing Blood Legion taking every arcane mage with a staff on the server for their attempts, though.

[Triks]

Er, he implied that raids today are more focused on tactics than strategy. I can't see how you could have read the opposite there.

And preparation is in terms of having the group composition right for the fight, which wholly does not matter today with the 'bring the player' design philosophy. Case in point, you needed multiple priests to mind control the orbs in Razuvius' fight in Naxx. If your raid did not have 4 priests, you could not do the fight properly. Having one of each class to maximize buffs was also a large factor, especially considering some class buffs only lasted 5 minutes and had to be rebuffed mid-fight. Then there's encounters with high amounts of element damage, requiring specific resistance gear to be farmed for everyone. That's what preparation means, not just 'preparing for a pull'.

Pretty much what you and goibunuden said. It's hard to compare the two raid models because they demand different skills. Ideally a raid should be a mixture of both and Ulduar and ICC (to an extent) managed to achieve it.

[kary]

Er, he implied that raids today are more focused on tactics than strategy. I can't see how you could have read the opposite there.

And preparation is in terms of having the group composition right for the fight, which wholly does not matter today with the 'bring the player' design philosophy. Case in point, you needed multiple priests to mind control the orbs in Razuvius' fight in Naxx. If your raid did not have 4 priests, you could not do the fight properly. Having one of each class to maximize buffs was also a large factor, especially considering some class buffs only lasted 5 minutes and had to be rebuffed mid-fight. Then there's encounters with high amounts of element damage, requiring specific resistance gear to be farmed for everyone. That's what preparation means, not just 'preparing for a pull'.

I mean, I guess I got confused between logistical preparation and strategical preparation.
Logistics not strategy. (granted logistics plays a part in strategy, apart from 1, maybe 2 encounters in vanilla you could do it with any class comp. Razuv and Viscidus)

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Pretty much what you and goibunuden said. It's hard to compare the two raid models because they demand different skills. Ideally a raid should be a mixture of both and Ulduar and ICC (to an extent) managed to achieve it.

Ulduar didn't force people to play certain roles/specs or farm gear. Also Ulduar was cleared within the first week with hardmodes soon after.

[Triks]

I'm just in awe that people missed farming for months to get an arbitrary resistance number to be able to complete an encounter.
Anyway people can derive pleasure from sticking metal rods inside their urethras so fun is totally in the eye of the beholder.

Apart from spine of deathwing world first progression, there havent been any logistics focus fighs, which is (in my opinion) a step in the right direction.
It was fun seeing Blood Legion taking every arcane mage with a staff on the server for their attempts, though.

Why not - not everyone likes the same thing. I personally thing that having fights based on reflexes in a slow-paced gaming about grinding is bad. You spend 100 levels killing slow-moving mobs and then you are thrown in an environment where you have to dodge lasers through 5 different directions. It's too much for some people, meaning less raiders overall.

Again, having more raids such as Ulduar and ICC would be a lot better to get people back into real raiding.

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I mean, I guess I got confused between logistical preparation and strategical preparation.
Logistics not strategy. (granted logistics plays a part in strategy, apart from 1, maybe 2 encounters in vanilla you could do it with any class comp. Razuv and Viscidus)

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Ulduar didn't force people to play certain roles/specs or farm gear. Also Ulduar was cleared within the first week with hardmodes soon after.

Ulduar featured a "creative use of game mechanics" - stealing buffs from the flowers to kill Hodir HM and stacking locks to kill Yogg 0 - that's strategy because you are using ways outside of the encounter to bypass/negate a key mechanic.