Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Gadzooks]

Maybe legally but I'd imagine if somehow enough money were pumped into a case it wouldn't go in Blizzard's favor after the defense shows multiple instances of not actually being the same at all. The only issue is nobody is willing to pump money into a case against Blizzard because it definitely wouldn't be a guaranteed win.

Your desire to play an older version of a game, or see a previous version of a movie, has no legal standing. It's a fairly easy concept to understand.

There's no legal defense that will magically remove Blizzard's copyright from ALL iterations of their property. It's simply not going to happen. No amount of money will change that, or prove otherwise. To think so shows a complete naivety on your part to common sense and basic law principles. It's amusing, but to go before a judge and claim "I can use this older version of a game any way I want, because the current game is different, that magically removes any copyright."

Do you know how fast a judge would throw you out of their courtroom? No, really. A claim like that would last as much time as it would take for the judge to dismiss teh case, and then sanction any lawyer dumb enough to waste the court's time with it.

And, if there was a chance at winning, don't you think the hosts of the servers that are threatened, like Nost, or lost, like Scapegaming, would have had lawyers come up with this magical defense, and try it in court? Nost didn't back down because they couldn't afford to pay lawyers, they admitted themselves, they wouldn't win, they knew they were infringing.

That's one of the more hilarious aspects to this whole thing - Nost said "Yeah, we knew this might happen, it's not legal", and here you guys are, running around, claiming "nuh uh!"

Hell, advising the Nost team to use the Chewbacca Defense is more sound legal advice than what you guys make up.

[slaise1]

I long for the days of 2 weeks played in order to get to cap. I think the journey should be just as important as the destination. The masses do not, sadly. They think the capped content is the only content that matters at all and frankly that's ridiculous.

Amen. I mean it's a game and the moment you boot it up it should feel fun and satisfying in rewards/gameplay/challenge

Also in a mmo like environment prestige is also important, in which has become less of since LFR

[Vash The Stampede]

It's not just copyright violations at play here, although Blizzard does have standing for it. They (pirate server hosts) are also in violation of the DMCA laws about circumnavigating DRM, in this case, Battle.net.

In the interest of consumer rights, I would imagine that this is where the DMCA can take a back seat. Think about it, you own a copy of WoW and can't use it without Blizzards Battle.net. That's anti consumer, especially when you can't get the product you bought. But since this is digital, this is in the same grey area as selling digital goods you bought.

The whole issue whether pirated servers are legal or not has been thrown around this thread for a long time, but nobody has actually tested their theories in a court of law, which is the only and final authority. The Nost crew obviously felt they would lose in court, which props up the idea that it's illegal (as a civil crime), and they would be ruined financially in a legal fight they couldn't win. Plus, there's precedent for it, see the Scapegaming lawsuit for reference.

There's better reasons why Nost crew didn't go to court. Besides them not having a dime to do so, Nostalrius wasn't making them a dime. So they don't even have the finances or the interest to fight Blizzard. It's the same situation with emulators, which yes they are indeed legal but everyone on the internet thinks otherwise.

If you think you have a sound legal theory as to why it's legal for you to host a pirated WoW server, feel free to test that in court - it should only cost you about $50k to get started on a defense.

For one, I'm broke. Two, you'll need a lot more to fight Blizzard in court. Three, I wouldn't know how to start making a WoW server.

[Vineri]

In the interest of consumer rights, I would imagine that this is where the DMCA can take a back seat. Think about it, you own a copy of WoW and can't use it without Blizzards Battle.net. That's anti consumer, especially when you can't get the product you bought. But since this is digital, this is in the same grey area as selling digital goods you bought.

This is part of the most amusing issues involved. The folks against Legacy do so for a reason, even though self serving .. why should they take up such a stance?

Likely because they fear interest in retail WoW may (even temporarily) wane, with the retail release considered an "alternate version" of WoW, head-to-head against Legacy; Legacy being a direct competitor. They fear budget cuts, when WoW is already experiencing revenue diversion to other projects as we speak. [do you like doing the same quest over and over?]

People who spend more on retail WoW, thinking their money goes to better their game are simply amusing!

As if supporting retail will suddenly pull more money to itself and add more content.

[Deleted]

I like Legion a lot and I still want an official vanilla server.

Fuck me, right?

Edit: I did like the response from one of the blizz devs that Vanilla is a part of gaming history, and there is no legal means of actually experiencing that part of history any longer unlike other games. It's a weird position to be in as a MMORPG.

[Eleccybubb]

This is part of the most amusing issues involved. The folks against Legacy do so for a reason, even though self serving .. why should they take up such a stance?

Likely because they fear interest in retail WoW may (even temporarily) wane, with the retail release considered an "alternate version" of WoW, head-to-head against Legacy; Legacy being a direct competitor. They fear budget cuts, when WoW is already experiencing revenue diversion to other projects as we speak. [do you like doing the same quest over and over?]

People who spend more on retail WoW, thinking their money goes to better their game are simply amusing!

As if supporting retail will suddenly pull more money to itself and add more content.

Tbh I really doubt retail would be affected that badly if they did the servers. Runescape again does fine with both servers.

[Vineri]

Tbh I really doubt retail would be affected that badly if they did the servers. Runescape again does fine with both servers.

I agree, however I based my observations upon comments from others.

Some folks like to argue for the sake of arguing. It's all fun. But others spelled out their concerns if Legacy was indeed implemented it may impact "their" game.

[Vash The Stampede]

People who spend more on retail WoW, thinking their money goes to better their game are simply amusing!

As if supporting retail will suddenly pull more money to itself and add more content.

Few things people need to realize about WoW. Firstly, anything after Vanilla is an expansion and not a new game. Most of what goes into expansions is usually content from previous expansions. It's basically a more advanced version of DLC. And now you pay $50 for these expansions, which is just $10 short of a brand new game.

Secondly, any content patch they produce is part of the initial purchase of the game. When you buy a fresh expansion, you are literally getting an unfinished product. Thirdly, it costs drastically less for Blizzard to make these expansions. How long did it take for Blizzard to update the player models? On top of all that, each expansion after TBC is relatively short. Vanilla had MC, ZG, AQ, and Naxx. None of that includes ZG and AQ 20 man raids. TBC had like 3 raids you started off in the game, with Karazhan being a big one. Then they released SC, and then Mount Hyjal, and between you have ZA. Then you have Black Temple, but that wasn't the last raid cause the bad ass Sunwell was released.

In my opinion WOTLK was the beginning of the downfall of content. Expansions starts off with Naxx which was from Vanilla, and then you have Uldaur and Ice Crown. The coliseum was like a joke where you fought bosses in one room. Since then you get a few raids in an expansion, if you're lucky. Still paying the same monthly fee and the expansions cost $10 more. Is it a wonder why so many people want to go back to Vanilla or TBC? Lots of people didn't even get to experience those expansions, so they have even more desire to go back and experience them. And on private servers it's free to boot.

[Vineri]

< SNIP >

And on private servers it's free to boot.

Private servers refuse donations or income because not only of the headaches involved with moving money across borders (country laws, taxes), but also more severe copyright laws, where money is involved. Private servers stay free because this is the only way they can operate. Blizzard leaves them alone, apparently. There are 100's. Nostalrius was 1, notable because Kern wanted to draw everything into the spotlight, which he did.

Unless of course it comes from China. No rules there, apparently. Knock offs, counterfeits, pirated versions? All good, apparently. Pings are horrible though, not worth the time - plus Pay to Win, no thanks.

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Thank you for clarifying and reinforcing my point. We know how out of touch, or at least understandably combative, Nintendo can be with stuff like streaming and YouTube, yet when it comes to players just enjoying the old games, they're infinitely more reasonable than Blizzard.

You are most welcome!

Nintendo is .. interesting. I could see restricting the games on the NES Mini, but wow. Many games I can buy loose are cheaper than the Virtual Console anyways. I can put up with cleaning the pins, blowing on them.

I guess they figured nobody could ever buy an old Nintendo console any longer ... oh those bean counters, living in Japan.

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No. blizzard owns the rights to the art, the characters adn everything else. For a server to beat Blizz in court on this they would have to use none of Blizzard's IP in any way shape or form.

Blizzard can own it. But I purchased a copy of their game. If you want to get into all legal mumbo jumbo babbling, I purchased the game without any agreement. I own the CD's, and if I refuse the agreement I can still use them as I wish, without agreeing to the EULA.

Someone can therefore use them to install, and play on a private server. The beef is with Blizzard and private servers, private servers being something Blizzard can't touch, unless another Kern steps down for career motivations.

Blizzard owns the art, the characters, and everything else. Only if someone duplicates and distributes the original copies would this pose a legal issue (to the end user).

[Vineri]

Wrong, if you infringe on their IP at all without their permission you're going to have issues.

Only if I intended to duplicate or profit from them, neither of which I'm interested in.

Using the software might be a point of yours, but if I simply refuse the EULA ... nobody can grab me for copyright infringement since I own a legal copy. I intend to merely play the game. Hence why Blizzard is going after the providers, not the end-users.

I would love to go after EA for ruining Westwood Stuiduis... Command and Conquer series. Ugh

Providers cover themselves by making server free. All the same, I would rather pay for an official Blizzard Legacy account. Why Blizzard refuses to do so is amusing, irritating, provoking, thoughtful, yet dismissing ... while all the while arousing. Overall disgusting, with their comments. /sigh

[Perkunas]

Wrong, if you infringe on their IP at all without their permission you're going to have issues.

There's been an emulator for Earth and Beyond for years and EA doesn't care. EA which is like the most sinister publishing company out there completely ignores it. They've even added the last 3 missing classes and tons of new missing zones. There's no profit so EA doesn't give a shit. I still feel like somebody on the WoW team got caught in the office playing on Nostalrius and it pissed off some people to the point that the wanted to bring it down. I can only imagine them asking what the appeal was for a 12-year-old game and getting a response of "everything?"

[Thimagryn]

Duplicating or profiting is what triggers action, but it is not the only type of infringement on their IP. Even mods using their IP are privvy to being shut down if they wanted to. There is no 'fair use' clause here, they have full control of their intellectual property. It is Blizzard's own will and choice to allow non-profit use of their IP to continue to exist.

This applies to other companies as well. Blizzard could excersize their right to shut down any number of podcasts, mods or sites that use their IP. They don't because they know that's bad PR. Just look at the situation with Starcraft Universe when one of their trigger-happy lawyers tried to shut down a mod for its use of the Starcraft IP name. Despite it being a misunderstanding, it was well within their power to shut it down.

[Vineri]

You can duplicate software you own all you like so long as you don't distribute it.

And you can't use Blizzard's IP to run a free server even if you aren't trying to profit from it.

As for Blizzard not making your legacy realms, it makes a ton of sense from their standpoint to not do it. The people who keep pretending it would be a simple and cheap thing to do are being silly. Not to mention how few people would actually pay for the realms overall. Yes, you can find a number of vocal people who say they'll pay. The majority of people wouldn't pay for long.

Tell that to the hundred(s) of other servers operating, many of which openly refute Blizzard's claim(s), while still operating many years after notification to stop. Only the Noob thinks Nostalrius was the only one - it's the only one former WoW founder Mark Kern ran that made the news.

I would love to entertain your source data for this claim. It must be really good .... right? Most people? You are good at assessing customers! Share your poll please.

[The Penguin]

For the sake of argument, what would the legal ramifications be if one were to make a "single player" out of WoW?

Not that I would, but color me curious since City of Heroes had a ton of support in the day and a lot of people would love something like that.

[Perkunas]

EA is not worried about protecting that IP. You can believe Blizzard is going to protect every piece of IP they currently have. It's fun comparing apples and oranges though.

There's no threat to the IP from a privately run Vanilla server. This nonsense about them "losing the copyright" was called on it's bullshit way back earlier in the thread.

[Vineri]

It doesn't make fiscal sense to go after every guppy in the pond. Legally they only have to go after enough big fish that they maintain their rights to the IP. If they never challenged any of these guys, even if they weren't making profits, they would lose their rights to their IP. It's adorable you used a color I had to edit to read though. Try using black so colorblind people don't have issues. And calm the hell down. I know it's frustrating operating on limited knowledge while you think you know everything, but you clearly don't know much about this topic.

While I defended Mark Kern in the past, I do nowadays believe he shut his own server down on purpose to make a statement, make rifts, and perhaps enhance his career. Other servers in his region continue to operate and they openly laugh at Blizzard's orders to cease operations. The other servers call him a puppet. These system operating and still draw high pop. (not as much as Kern though, he could do 10k per server, which is 3X more than Blizzard ever did.)

I went adorable, btw. I noticed the font was atrocious, so went bold

[Perkunas]

While I defended Mark Kern in the past, I do nowadays believe he shut his own server down on purpose to make a statement, make rifts, and perhaps enhance his career. Other servers in his region continue to operate and they openly laugh at Blizzard's orders to cease operations. The systems call him a puppet. These system operating and still draw high pop. (not as much as Kern though, he could do 10k per server, which is 3X more than Blizzard ever did.)

I went adorable, btw. I noticed the font was atrocious, so went bold

Wait, when did it come out Kern was running Nost? That's not what I had heard. I simply figured he just played there.

[Gadzooks]

Only if I intended to duplicate or profit from them, neither of which I'm interested in.

Using the software might be a point of yours, but if I simply refuse the EULA ... nobody can grab me for copyright infringement since I own a legal copy. I intend to merely play the game. Hence why Blizzard is going after the providers, not the end-users.

I would love to go after EA for ruining Westwood Stuiduis... Command and Conquer series. Ugh

Providers cover themselves by making server free. All the same, I would rather pay for an official Blizzard Legacy account. Why Blizzard refuses to do so is amusing, irritating, provoking, thoughtful, yet dismissing ... while all the while arousing. Overall disgusting, with their comments. /sigh

Feel free to test your rather specious legal grounds in court.

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I like Legion a lot and I still want an official vanilla server.

Fuck me, right?

Edit: I did like the response from one of the blizz devs that Vanilla is a part of gaming history, and there is no legal means of actually experiencing that part of history any longer unlike other games. It's a weird position to be in as a MMORPG.

Very, very, very few people have taken the position of "fuck you for wanting to play vanilla WoW". Personally, I have never criticized anyone for wanting to - I get what it is you're after. I just like pointing out the fantastical and hilariously deluded posts who claim to know copyright law and how it works.

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[QUOTE=MrMagicMan;42607608]I like Legion a lot and I still want an official vanilla server.

[Vineri]

Very, very, very few people have taken the position of "fuck you for wanting to play vanilla WoW". Personally, I have never criticized anyone for wanting to - I get what it is you're after. I just like pointing out the fantastical and hilariously deluded posts who claim to know copyright law and how it works.

For the record, it was not F** U, it was F** Me. If you want to be taken seriously, at least participate in correct reporting.

It's amazing what people think, when others keep criticizing their ideas, to promote their own ideas. One day these people may claim Blizzard owns the term MMORPG. It's interesting.

[Hrishi]

Plenty of MMOs have done the whole "legacy server" and "progression server" thing. You can see from their experiments that it never negatively impacted their base game, sometimes it even boosted it.

Surely you don't think that Legacy players, if they are paying for a subscription anyway, wouldn't check out Legion/anything else when they want a break? I think it would serve to boost both Legion's popularity as well as provide a place for their older fans to enjoy the base game. In fact, perhaps people who never tried the original game might be curious enough to try.

I'm still hopeful. If blizzard wants to do it, they can find a way. The question is whether they want to do it.