Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Eleccybubb]

Hello guys,

I would like some help from everyone that wants legacy servers to get this message across the entire wow community. The message is the following :

"The current retail wow is a different game from what it was back in 2004-2008, there is nothing wrong with it, it's the best mmo on the market but it's targeted at a different crowd, that is why most players that want legacy servers do not enjoy retail.

Being two completely different games due to the design philosophy it's is normal for current retail players to say the game was bad/unplayable back then, but the people that want legacy servers know how the game was and they like it that way, don't see the point in arguing with what people find entertaining or not because it comes down to personal preference and not everyone is the same/likes the same things.

I don't get why some retail players are so against the legacy servers, and here are some points why all the wow community should support legacy servers:

- Blizzard will not change the current game in any way and blizzard will not force you to play on legacy servers.

- Legacy servers, if blizzard chooses to do so, will have an extra fee, that extra fee will not go to legacy servers development but instead it will go to the development/ improvement of the current retail wow.

- Maintaining the server up for legacy will be a minimal cost because there will not be that many people playing it compared to the live game.

- Being able to play a game in its older version is something that blizzard has been doing since diablo2 expansion, giving the players the option to play a Classic character or and expansion character, so why not also do it on world of warcraf, some mmo's have done these "old school" servers, runescape and everquest and they are successful servers.

- Giving the players the option to go back and play an old games is good, for example you can always go back and play your old single player games that you have already beaten, but playing them again is still fun because you enjoy the game, Legacy servers are no different and as long as blizzard is profiting from them i see no reason no to make them available to the community

On a final note, I think, if blizzard releases these servers, that they should fully disclose to all legacy servers players, that no content patches/updates will be added to the game, so people do not expect any more extra content from what is already is the game."

Feel free to share this with everyone one I believe that a lot of players see legacy servers as a bad thing for them, that is not true, I hope this changes their minds

My post got locked so i moved it here, spread the message

Again how do you know the costs to maintain a server? Hiring staff, buying the actual hardware and the setup costs alone are a fair amount. Also while Runescape is successful I would not call the Everquest server that has 1k players a success. Also why should legacy servers have a separate fee when other games don't do that?

[Deleted]

I don't know, but i can assume that the profit they will make will cover all the costs

also i would say eq is successful, for a game with so little subs to get 1k paying to play their 18yo game is good, don't know where you got the numbers but will trust you

[Eleccybubb]

I don't know, but i can assume that the profit they will make will cover all the costs

And then what happens when less and less money starts coming in and they start losing money? It will happen eventually. Staff will still want their salary which means if they do go into the black they would have to move budgets around to cover their costs as well as maintaining the servers. You cannot just say it will barely cost anything when the initial costs will be quite high.

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I don't know, but i can assume that the profit they will make will cover all the costs

also i would say eq is successful, for a game with so little subs to get 1k paying to play their 18yo game is good, don't know where you got the numbers but will trust you

EQ is f2p by default now. Sub is just a perk thing. Also the official site of the server. Not sure if we are allowed to name them here for other games since they said no for wow ones. Peak times for that server showed 1-1.5k. I really wouldn't call that successful for an 18 year old game when Old school Runescape has 30 times that number at half the age and shows no signs of slowing down.

[Deleted]

And then what happens when less and less money starts coming in and they start losing money? It will happen eventually. Staff will still want their salary which means if they do go into the black they would have to move budgets around to cover their costs as well as maintaining the servers. You cannot just say it will barely cost anything when the initial costs will be quite high.

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EQ is f2p by default now. Sub is just a perk thing. Also the official site of the server. Not sure if we are allowed to name them here for other games since they said no for wow ones. Peak times for that server showed 1-1.5k. I really wouldn't call that successful for an 18 year old game when Old school Runescape has 30 times that number at half the age and shows no signs of slowing down.

EQ has subscription based proggression servers with old expansions.

[Eleccybubb]

EQ has subscription based proggression servers with old expansions.

Thought you meant the one I PM'D you. Yeah I threw a month on to check them out and there really wasn't much to look at. Considering they just cancelled Next I wouldn't be surprised if EQ1 is close to the chopping block soon.

[anon5123]

Becuase Blizzard spending time and resources on "legacy" might mean less on new versions/expantions of WoW.
Most players would probably not like that.

...Because apparently it's impossible for them to hire more people to work on legacy servers?

herp a derp

[Deleted]

I do enjoy Legion alot but personally i would have no problem paying 20 euro per month to be able to experience Vanilla in a legit setting, i never tried Nostalrius or anything like it, all i know is that i want to play it again.

I see many commenting that people played Nostalrius and servers that are similar because its free but for me its not the case, i would pay IRL money for Vanilla but for Legion i dont pay anything, i made millions thru garrisons and i have enough gold for gametime for the next few years.

I still go back do Diablo 1 and 2 sometimes just because its different from Diablo 3 but i really enjoy Diablo 3 for what it is also just like i enjoy Legion for what it is.

[Deficineiron]

I do enjoy Legion alot but personally i would have no problem paying 20 euro per month to be able to experience Vanilla in a legit setting, i never tried Nostalrius or anything like it, all i know is that i want to play it again.

I see many commenting that people played Nostalrius and servers that are similar because its free but for me its not the case, i would pay IRL money for Vanilla but for Legion i dont pay anything, i made millions thru garrisons and i have enough gold for gametime for the next few years.

I still go back do Diablo 1 and 2 sometimes just because its different from Diablo 3 but i really enjoy Diablo 3 for what it is also just like i enjoy Legion for what it is.

I tend to agree with you - I think the potential paying pool of legacy players is much larger than the PS population, even if you assume some of the PS population is from parts of the world they may not want to pay 15/mo for.

1) non-eu players who mainly want pvp - lag playing on a european server is toxic if you are far far away, esp. for melee dps. having a regionally local server would make pvp 'possible.;

2) buggy stuff. even the best ps has bugs once you get beyond simple outdoor quests/mobs. instances and special content (a recent example for me was the ogre boss and his 2 adds in Loch Modan) may not be chained right, can be pulled in non-blizzlike ways. some mobs may not have all their spells available. the aggro leash on the k--- server is very short too. I have not seen raid or instance bosses but I have trouble thinking it is completely like retail was, given the numerous other issues I see.

3) durability - PS characters can vanish tomorrow. if blizz were do to it, it is likely the servers would be up many years even if they were not successful just to avoid the fallout of pulling plug.

4) exploiters - bots and goldsellers buy licenses too, lots of them. they would doubtless be present in their usual numbers on official realms, given that they are active on private realms. given that classic had some hard walls on money (40 and 60 mounts) to climb, there would be demand for sure right out of the gate. (it may cross one's mind right now that blizz could and might sell legacy tokens too and cut into this)

5) folks keen to avoid violating TOS. (or, as some on this thread seem to believe, who wish to avoid becoming hardened criminals)

just a few random thoughts. I mess around on K--- but I would sub for legacy 'genuine' server (not an activision-style mass market nerf job) happily even if I hvae little time to play.

[Deleted]

even if I hvae little time to play.

Exactly this, vanilla is not about completing everything in the game, it's about having a journey and enjoying the time you play.

[Deficineiron]

Exactly this, vanilla is not about completing everything in the game, it's about having a journey and enjoying the time you play.

I would suspect a surprisingly large % of players were not max level after 12 months of active sub (those who qualified) in vanilla. Leveling (inc. leveling instances and (no-xp) bg's) WAS the game for almost everyone.

By definition this forum is a very small cross-section of potentially VERY active players, but 'normal people' who played the game the, in aggregate, simply had less time and/or other priorities and/or other responsibilities. finding an hour or two a week was considered a win.

[Thimagryn]

...Because apparently it's impossible for them to hire more people to work on legacy servers?

herp a derp

Which turns it into a corporate decision of "Should we hire more people to work on Legacy Servers". As far as we know, that decision has been a resounding no. That doesn't change until we get more info from Blizzard themselves. It's beyond the individual Blizzard developers intentions and pursuits as well. At this point, the devs are open to the option, but it's still in the hands of the top execs whether or not Legacy is feasible to their business plans. That's the reality.

[Deficineiron]

Which turns it into a corporate decision of "Should we hire more people to work on Legacy Servers". As far as we know, that decision has been a resounding no. That doesn't change until we get more info from Blizzard themselves. It's beyond the individual Blizzard developers intentions and pursuits as well. At this point, the devs are open to the option, but it's still in the hands of the top execs whether or not Legacy is feasible to their business plans. That's the reality.

it is notable that the nost comments on their meeting with blizzard, if you assume they were substantially accurate depictions of those talks, deviated substantially from a number of earlier forum logic assumptions -

1) blizz HAS the code. the dog ate my code was a common 'reason' why not possible. secure version backups? what backups?
2) they decribed the blizz folks (and apparently a LOT were at this meeting) as receptive to the topic ingeneral.
3) the metadata is the major issue - it was not backed up and would have to be rebuilt from some point.

I would imagine blizz has already started feasibility or completed a study on cost of doing this, whether they go fwd or not with it (we may never know if they don't.). With the uproar they got on nost, they would be fools not to try to sort out what it would cost and how big a market this might be.

my fear remains that rather than going fwd with legacy servers for players that want to play classic wow, they try to adjust it more towards their current playerbase - old world quest lines, map, but tickle-tuning mobs, faceroll instances with lots of aoe (added to classes that didnt have of course), threat neutering, fast gearing, fast xp/leveling, etc. I call this option the 'frankenstein' server.

[Thimagryn]

Yeah, but the Nost talks were with developers. While the devs have a lot of input and say, they aren't the ones who greenlight the project. All they can do is pitch it; assuming the devs are on board with Legacy.

[Saucerian]

Still pulling for Classic realms eventually. Detractors seem to miss the point that it's not all nostalgia for grinds and raid-or-die.

Classic had many, many casual players, of varying degrees, who simply enjoyed being part of a huge immersive world, having fixed realm communities, and building characters that had a lot more depth and potential customization. Even if most builds were "wrong" by min/max standards. Many hardcore players still can't get over themselves when they assume "well everyone looked up cookie cutter specs". No, no they didn't. Most people didn't raid, either. Hell, Blizzard once cited that in Classic most people didn't even reach level cap.

Now, thanks to a combination of Blizzard designer stubbornness and Activision bean counting IMO, we have a game engineered to railroad everyone into raids as fast as possible, with no specs available but the cookie-cutters, lest players potentially experiment and draw ire by underperforming. Because Blizzard still wants a raid-centric game and Activision wants participation rates.

WoW has always been themepark but it fostered a lot more player investment and emergent gameplay in the past. I think that's what a lot of Classic realm supporters want back, me included.

[Aggrophobic]

...Because apparently it's impossible for them to hire more people to work on legacy servers?

herp a derp

It's unlikey that they actually would hire more for a project like this, yes.

[Pann]

Yeah, but the Nost talks were with developers. While the devs have a lot of input and say, they aren't the ones who greenlight the project. All they can do is pitch it; assuming the devs are on board with Legacy.

According to reports the meeting included Mike Morhaime, J Allen Brack and Tom Chilton amongst others.

[Gadzooks]

1) blizz HAS the code. the dog ate my code was a common 'reason' why not possible. secure version backups? what backups?

Factually untrue:

"In order to generate the server (and the client), a complex build system is being used. It is not just about generating the “WoW.exe” and “Server.exe” files. The build process takes data, models, maps, etc. created by Blizzard and also generates client and server specific files. The client only has the information it needs and the server only has the information that it needs.

This means that before re-launching vanilla realms, all of the data needed for the build processes has to be gathered in one place with the code. Not all of this information was under a version control system. (emphasis mine) In the end, whichever of these parts were lost at any point, they will have to be recreated: this is likely to take a lot of resources through a long development process." - from the Nostralious meeting wrap-up. Even the Nost guys agree and believe that all of the data is not there.

Tom Chilton's comments:

Chilton: It’s very challenging, and we love the idea of it. We met with the Nostalrius server guys last week, and we even had the opportunity to play on the server. It was kind of a moving experience to get to re-experience classic WoW.

Schreier: 40-man Molten Core!

Chilton: Totally. We made a Stratholme run together. It was hilarious. John Hight, our production director, forgot that his pet was only level 8, so he’d go and pull, and it’d pull half the instance, and we’d wipe, and had to run back, and all that good stuff. So that’s really cool, and we like that idea, but it is extremely challenging to actually execute. A big part of the reason is that our database, the way it works is live data. So when somebody goes in there and says ‘Fireball does 200 damage now instead of 100,’ that’s it: Fireball has changed forever.

In the past, there was no archiving of older data.(emphasis mine) So while we have the capability of doing that now, and in more recent years when we make changes we can ‘version’ the data, we didn’t have that back in 2004. And so as data changed, we effectively lost that stuff to history. And so we would have to go back and try to reverse-engineer it ourselves.

Schreier: Don’t the Nostalrius people have that data?

Chilton: No, they don’t actually. So what they did is went back and reverse-engineered it. They spent countless hours researching on YouTube, looking at, ‘OK how many hit points do you think that monster has, I think I saw a video that showed it with, you know, 2,152 hit points, so that’s the number of hit points we’re gonna give it.’ And they’re just kinda guessing and approximating on a lot of stuff. Which is cool, and they did an amazing job of making it feel like a very authentic experience. But ultimately the way they implement their data is in no way similar to the way we do it. So it’s not like we can even take that data and put it in the game, because they actually aren’t even really compatible - they have a completely different approach to creating content.

Chilton's final word on the fate of legacy servers:

Chilton: Yeah, and we certainly hold onto hope that some day we’ll be able to do that.

Not "We are doing it" or "We're putting plans together". Nope. Some day. Maybe. Don't hold your breath.

[Holtzmann]

(Tom Chilton interview)

Do you have a link to that, Gadzooks? Sounds like a very interesting interview and I can't seem to find it.

[stomination]

What if the content was immense, immersive, and making people WANT to log in every day during the life of the expansion? There is a joke here, but it doesn't involve Legacy fans.

Yea I guess the joke is in order ot get ppl to play one without all that immense immersive stuff they would have to offer it for free.

[Gadzooks]

Do you have a link to that, Gadzooks? Sounds like a very interesting interview and I can't seem to find it.

Right here:

http://kotaku.com/blizzard-talks-wor...mor-1781753136

It's a good interview, worth reading.