Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Deleted]

Kinda miss Metzen...was a legal dude...keep it real Thrall!

[Ielenia]

The guy I quoted has been insulting everyone, cursing left right and centre, so I think it's justified.

Is that what you believe in? Eye for an eye? He insults you, you insult him, no backing down, only escalation?

How can we be sure any numbers are true? Every company has their own personal agenda. Don't be stupid. The game has been bleeding since WoTLK, the subscriber numbers posted up until they stopped posting them supported this officially, so there's the evidence.

However, you have only guesswork and no real evidence to state, as fact, that the game is still losing subscribers.

Blizzard have the hard evidence, they are too scared to release it.

Could you stop stating baseless opinions as if they were facts? They're not.

Go to them if you think the game isn't losing subs, maybe they will stroke you calmly telling you everything is alright. That's what you want it looks like.

Almost your entire reply to me, past the first line, has been nothing but derisive, snide comments toward me, and opinions stated as fact. How about an argument based on real evidence and not just 'feels', please.

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I have an issue with anyone posting false facts, as they serve no purpose and just dilute the truth, helping nothing.

It's one thing to claim that Polygon is not a reputable source, but it is another thing entirely to claim that the information provided from Polygon is outright false. Unless you can prove that the information is false, it's incredibly disingenuous and dishonest to state it as such.

[Vineri]

The guy I quoted has been insulting everyone, cursing left right and centre, so I think it's justified. How can we be sure any numbers are true? Every company has their own personal agenda. Don't be stupid. The game has been bleeding since WoTLK, the subscriber numbers posted up until they stopped posting them supported this officially, so there's the evidence. You don't like it? Fine keep your head in the sand. Blizzard have the hard evidence, they are too scared to release it. Go to them if you think the game isn't losing subs, maybe they will stroke you calmly telling you everything is alright. That's what you want it looks like.

However, you have only guesswork and no real evidence to state, as fact, that the game is still losing subscribers.

Actually it is true from subscriber public investor information that WoW was losing subs during mid WotLK, for the first time ever. The downward trend continued, but Blizzard did state that added-value revenue increased.

Added value is essentially double dipping your fans for extra income, such as character modifications, transfers, and cash-shop items. It does not imply new players coming to WoW, but merely extra revenue to offset or supercede a diminishing fanbase.

Blizzard stopped reporting when the number of players, including China (which was a huge chunk), fell below 5 million. Blizzard still makes lots of money, since retail fans effectively pay more for the same service they used to get (or less quality service, speculative).

As to WoW losing subscriber numbers, it's likely. Their main event is when an expansion launches. After that, it's mostly downward, since retail nowadays doesn't attract continued interest. Patches spark interest, but never as good as the expansion does. And unlikely to be as good as the expansion before that.

Legions did promise a Legacy experience. This may also help to explain the sudden popularity and drop of the playerbase. After WoD, and Legions, I would anticipate less gullible gamers in the future, indicating a decline, not a rise. There is always a sucker though ...

[Ielenia]

Actually it is true from subscriber public investor information that WoW was losing subs during mid WotLK, for the first time ever. The downward trend continued, but Blizzard did state that added-value revenue increased.

Added value is essentially double dipping your fans for extra income, such as character modifications, transfers, and cash-shop items. It does not imply new players coming to WoW, but merely extra revenue to offset or supercede a diminishing fanbase.

Blizzard stopped reporting when the number of players, including China (which was a huge chunk), fell below 5 million. Blizzard still makes lots of money, since retail fans effectively pay more for the same service they used to get (or less quality service, speculative).

As to WoW losing subscriber numbers, it's likely. Their main event is when an expansion launches. After that, it's mostly downward, since retail nowadays doesn't attract continued interest. Patches spark interest, but never as good as the expansion does. And statistically improbably to be never as good as the expansion before that.

I'm not disputing that WoW subscription numbers have dropped since WotLK. I'm not. What I am disputing, though, is the poster's insistent attempts at stating, as fact, that the game is still "hemorrhaging subscribers". We have no evidence at all, nothing, to state that as fact.

You can say that it's likey that the number of subscriber is going down, and that's fine, but you cannot state such as fact.

EDIT: As for the "Legion did promise a Legacy experience"... where did you take that? I've never seen any promise of the sort, at all. Nothing in Legion's promotional material ever screamed 'legacy'.

[Vineri]

I'm not disputing that WoW subscription numbers have dropped since WotLK. I'm not. What I am disputing, though, is the poster's insistent attempts at stating, as fact, that the game is still "hemorrhaging subscribers". We have no evidence at all, nothing, to state that as fact.

You can say that it's likey that the number of subscriber is going down, and that's fine, but you cannot state such as fact.

EDIT: As for the "Legion did promise a Legacy experience"... where did you take that? I've never seen any promise of the sort, at all. Nothing in Legion's promotional material ever screamed 'legacy'.

I'm not disputing that WoW subscription numbers have dropped since WotLK. I'm not. What I am disputing, though, is the poster's insistent attempts at stating, as fact, that the game is still "hemorrhaging subscribers". We have no evidence at all, nothing, to state that as fact.

We can't, you are correct.

Dead servers tell a story though, and charging 25 bucks per character to have fun again is where Blizzard is making this game profitable.

There was a business decision that went into not reporting numbers any longer. I don't doubt this, neither should you if, say 5 Million subscribers pay the equivalent of 15 million subs in the course of a year.

The problem is that it is unsustainable.

The game is in-effect very expensive to play for the average fan. While no evidence directly supports declining numbers, the evidence is merely superficial: 1) Blizzard stops reporting numbers, merely stating that WoW revenue is from Added-Value 2) Legacy on the rise, Blizzard to comment after Blizzcon 3) Dead servers abound 4) Lackluster social comments (numbers and substance).

Historically, China subs, pay much, much less. Their numbers doubled NA / EU numbers when Blizzard stopped reporting them, many years ago.

[Deleted]

Historically, China subs, pay much, much less.

Last I read was Asia pays by the hour so where does your claim come from?

[Vineri]

Last I read was Asia pays by the hour so where does your claim come from?

If I play 5 hours a week, even 10, I would want their model in a heartbeat.

Last I read was they pay less than 25 cents per hour. My vote is their model :P

[FelPlague]

I am not sure the legacy servers done by Blizzard would be a money-maker (and I am completely sure they are way better off spending effort on Legion patches - it's only after the game is growing again or at least stable when it makes sense to spend considerable effort on side things like legacy servers).

But if I were Blizzard, I would have let Nost 2 live in peace. That would avoid negative PR and, more importantly, it would provide people who might like legacy servers in the future (not just vanilla - also TBC / WotLK / etc, this feature could be interesting to those who play live, too, kind of like timewalking but on a much bigger scale) with a staging home.

there is a thing called copyright protection though, if people find out you arnt protecting your copyright trademark, you can lose it

[Mahourai]

Actually it is true from subscriber public investor information that WoW was losing subs during mid WotLK, for the first time ever. The downward trend continued, but Blizzard did state that added-value revenue increased.

WoW had no net loss in subscribers, as Blizzard defines subscribers, reported during WoTLK. And if you're not talking about net losses but just any losses at all, obviously there were people unsubscribing during every era of WoW.

There was no "downward trend" in Wrath.

[Vineri]

WoW had no net loss in subscribers, as Blizzard defines subscribers, reported during WoTLK. And if you're not talking about net losses but just any losses at all, obviously there were people unsubscribing during every era of WoW.

There was no "downward trend" in Wrath.

You have access to non-net losses? This would have been an investors dream back then.

People were joining, but others were leaving. Blizzard was losing subs. You are the only one who brought up net losses btw.

If you claim to know the churn details, please elaborate! As for no "downward trend" during Wrath, all anyone really needs to see in investor reporting. After a short while to try out auto-LFG, fans beat up on each other for the Exit door.

The later half of WotLK ended growth for WoW, and turned the game in a downward trend.

Churn was high during WotLK, for sure. WoW stagnated even during the climax of the story, namely Arthus, which should have been a moment of growth, a pinnacle event. It was not. Likely due to Blizzard's fascination with technology - namely auto-grouping and phasing. Huge turn offs for community driven individuals.

Players always came and went, but this period saw many folks leaving, at a comparable rate to those joining. Stagnation.

[Mahourai]

People were joining, but others were leaving. Blizzard was losing subs. You are the only one who brought up net losses btw.

That's because it only makes sense to talk about losses when it's a net loss.

If you mean that Wrath had net sub losses, you are wrong. At no point did any report show a net sub loss in Wrath.

If you mean simply that this was the first time WoW lost any subscribers at all, even though it was maintaining steady net subscriptions, you are wrong. Obviously, people have unsubscribed from World of Warcraft ever since it was released.

As for no "downward trend" during Wrath, all anyone really needs to see in investor reporting. After a short while to try out auto-LFG, fans beat up on each other for the Exit door.

About the highest peak of WoW subs ever was in October 2010, 10 months after the introduction of the Dungeon Finder. There is no correlation between the introduction of the Dungeon Finder and sub losses. Why do you continually lie about the implementation of the Dungeon Finder and sub losses?

[Kyanion]

Why do you continually lie about the implementation of the Dungeon Finder and sub losses?

Because he is trying to fit it into his batshit insane narrative that dungeon finder was the beginning of the end despite evidence not showing it. He does not want people to look at the facts that 10 months later subs were at the highest point.

[Mahourai]

Because he is trying to fit it into his batshit insane narrative that dungeon finder was the beginning of the end despite evidence not showing it. He does not want people to look at the facts that 10 months later subs were at the highest point.

The funny thing is you can make an unfalsifiable version of this same argument just by avoiding definitive statements. You could say that the ease of raiding in Wrath and the eventual implementation of the Dungeon Finder prevented subs from growing to 20 million or whatever. It's a ridiculous assertion, but not one that can be disproven, because it's a hypothetical. EDIT: And he attempts to kind of slide into this argument after the false statements are pointed out each time.

[Kyanion]

The funny thing is you can make an unfalsifiable version of this same argument just by avoiding definitive statements. You could say that the ease of raiding in Wrath and the eventual implementation of the Dungeon Finder prevented subs from growing to 20 million or whatever. It's a ridiculous assertion, but not one that can be disproven, because it's a hypothetical.

Yup and while it would get some snide remarks from people it would be a claim that is just tossed out there like many others in this thread. But since they didn't do that and instead pointed at the reasons shit went wrong you can easily go back with data we've got and look how fucked up it is. It is one thing about the pro-Legacy that has always fascinated me in this thread, how quick they are to point to 'facts' where there are no numbers to support it or that the numbers say something else.

[Brody]

faefaorgj orjgsoritjgrt

[Kyanion]

faefaorgj orjgsoritjgrt

o...kay.. I guess

[Vineri]

That's because it only makes sense to talk about losses when it's a net loss.

If you mean that Wrath had net sub losses, you are wrong. At no point did any report show a net sub loss in Wrath.

If you mean simply that this was the first time WoW lost any subscribers at all, even though it was maintaining steady net subscriptions, you are wrong. Obviously, people have unsubscribed from World of Warcraft ever since it was released.



About the highest peak of WoW subs ever was in October 2010, 10 months after the introduction of the Dungeon Finder. There is no correlation between the introduction of the Dungeon Finder and sub losses. Why do you continually lie about the implementation of the Dungeon Finder and sub losses?

Dec 2008
http://www.awn.com/news/world-warcraft-hits-115m-subscribers-blizzard-hiring
Subs: 11.5

May 2011
http://http://kotaku.com/5469063/wor...wth-since-2008
Subs: 11.4

Looks like stagnation to me.

You could always trust Blizzard for accurate reporting and follow this link:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/2957165837
But I think you will be disappointed. It's the 11.1M topic. Google still shows the link (and the original thread title)

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Because he is trying to fit it into his batshit insane narrative that dungeon finder was the beginning of the end despite evidence not showing it. He does not want people to look at the facts that 10 months later subs were at the highest point.

I still like you. Your funny.

[Mahourai]

Dec 2008
http://www.awn.com/news/world-warcraft-hits-115m-subscribers-blizzard-hiring
Subs: 11.5

May 2011
http://http://kotaku.com/5469063/wor...wth-since-2008
Subs: 11.4

May 2011 is five months after the release of Cataclysm. Your claim had nothing to do with sub losses after Cataclysm's release, or with subs being stagnant - you asserted losses and downward trends and only begin using language like "stagnation" once it was pointed out there were no losses or downward trends.

[Deleted]

Is that what you believe in? Eye for an eye? He insults you, you insult him, no backing down, only escalation?

why are you whining about this? It has nothing do with anything.

However, you have only guesswork and no real evidence to state, as fact, that the game is still losing subscribers.

Obviously as I mentioned earlier, I only have guess work, its all any of us have. What do you want me to do, become an investor of acti-blizzard to get the inside scoop on their sub numbers? Please stop asking for real evidence, when blizzard refuse to provide it. It's pointless and you just keep making the same point over and over and over. Move on.

Could you stop stating baseless opinions as if they were facts? They're not.

An opinion is just that. An opinion. It's not a fact, why do you take it as such a personal attack, I'm not even targeting it towards you but you make it sound like I'm pissing in your cornflakes. It's my opinion, deal with it. Just because I don't start everything with "in my opinion" doesn't mean I'm claiming facts. Stop being so childish.

Almost your entire reply to me, past the first line, has been nothing but derisive, snide comments toward me, and opinions stated as fact. How about an argument based on real evidence and not just 'feels', please.

Thicken your skin if you feel that way, I'm sorry you're upset but almost your entire reply to me has been whining and senseless accusations. I'm sorry mate but as reality says, the world isn't one big liberal arts campus, you're going to have to deal with "mean" comments from time to time. I'd happily provide what you seek if it weren't censored from the people you're defending so religiously. Take it up with them as you seem to have such rage on for facts. I don't think I've read a sentence without you using the word facts in there. Ironic how you deliver no facts yourself.

It's one thing to claim that Polygon is not a reputable source, but it is another thing entirely to claim that the information provided from Polygon is outright false. Unless you can prove that the information is false, it's incredibly disingenuous and dishonest to state it as such.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I have my reasons for distrusting polygon, as many others do.

[Vineri]

May 2011 is five months after the release of Cataclysm. Your claim had nothing to do with sub losses after Cataclysm's release, or with subs being stagnant - you asserted losses and downward trends and only begin using language like "stagnation" once it was pointed out there were no losses or downward trends.

The numbers merely show no growth over the given time period. It was as though WotLK never even existed.

This will likely throw your arms up in anger. WoW had an all time high during this period of 12M - I acknowledge this! Churn was high, and so were sub losses.

The downward trend was introduced to show how WotLK neither helped or hindered growth for WoW. It was a period of Stagnation, regardless of how popular WotLK was amongst fans.