Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Eleccybubb]

No, that's not what emulation usually means. That's reimplementation or reverse engineering.

If the Nost people had done that they'd be legally immune, even in the US. But they are reusing protected elements or modifying the clients.

Law isn't my big thing here but wouldn't Blizzard have measures in for reverse engineering and what not or can't you do that?

[Akka]

No, that's not what emulation usually means. That's reimplementation or reverse engineering.

That's exactly what emulation means.

Man, not even knowing what emulation is on a private server discussion is already embarassing enough to begin with.
Still not knowing what it means after being told what it is and not even bothering to check your fact after being told you should inform yourself first about easily obtainable knowledge is just insulting.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

If the Nost people had done that they'd be legally immune, even in the US. But they are reusing protected elements or modifying the clients.

And what do they modify on the client ?

[Deficineiron]

I think it was "blizzard sucks now, i'll work on firefall and we'll show blizzard who is boss now!"

its worse than that. read up on his tenure there. it was a 3-ring circus of dilbert meets game design with a movie side business thrown in. crazy stuff.

[Osmeric]

Law isn't my big thing here but wouldn't Blizzard have measures in for reverse engineering and what not or can't you do that?

They have terms in the ToS, I believe, but whether those are enforceable could be questioned.

[Osmeric]

That's exactly what emulation means.

Man, not even knowing what emulation is on a private server discussion is already embarassing enough to begin with.
Still not knowing what it means after being told what it is and not even bothering to check your fact after being told you should inform yourself first about easily obtainable knowledge is just insulting.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Perhaps you should back down here and make sure you aren't being foolish.

"In computing, an emulator is hardware or software that enables one computer system (called the host) to behave like another computer system (called the guest). An emulator typically enables the host system to run software or use peripheral devices designed for the guest system."

What an emulator lets you do is execute a program on a system other than the one it was intended for (for example, on one with a different instruction set architecture). It doesn't REPLACE that program, it allows it to run.

Your use of the term "emulation" is incorrect.

And what do they modify on the client ?

I have no inside knowledge of what they did. They might, as one example, perhaps have changed IP addresses to allow the client to point to their server instead of one of Blizzard's.

Modification of a copyrighted program is creation of a derivative work. The right to create derivative works is one of the rights controlled under copyright law.

[A dot Ham]

Maybe I missed them but what is the valid argument that is not an opinion? I get they like vanilla better, shit I like TBC and MoP much better then the failure that was WoD. I know you have mentioned some of these but where is the counter to these?

1. Blizzard can just say no, it is their IP
2. They have talked about it, this year in fact and said its not worth it to them
3. Using 2, its clear blizz had looked into this and has the numbers and facts that prove to them its not worth it or more info this us
4. Looking at the numbers at nost like an adult and seeing that while good for a PS, it proves nothing to BLizz
5. People casually tossing out how easy it would be to make a vanilla server, with no info about it
6. People who claim blizz is lying about the code or god knows what

By the way I am not 100% against legacy servers, hell I might try a BC one. I just hate that people started this thread going full two year old temper tantrum.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly with that.

I am not disagreeing with any of your counterpoints I am on your side.

I take the position of Blizzard and see the whole thing as a novelty. Sustainability I don't see it.

Their thinking is that $15/month x 150k player = $2.25 million per month. That of course ignores any direct and variable costs, and ignores the impact it will have on live. I think the potential profit is there... it just isn't enough profit to make blizzard do it. They have to constantly evaluate if the time/energy/resources is worth the effort, or if that could be used elsewhere to generate more profit. It makes sense to me... it makes sense to you. The sad truth is the majority don't care, they want what they want and to hell with everything and everybody else.

I think the reason of wanting to play it as it originally was is a pretty solid argument.

I think even some type of licensing agreement could work, but that company better prepared to pony up the dough, and be prepared to be Blizzard's bitch, because they aren't going to let anything be provided that is not up to par quality wise.

But again, none of that really matters because Blizzard said, "No."

[Deleted]

Great news WoW Creator Mark Kern supports the petition!
https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/721009051962703872

[Charge me Doctor]

Might have a point though, big studios tend to lose the magic that smaller studios have. I understand why he might've switched.

or they have more fucking clue when make long-term decisions, like smaller studios don't have to make, or are not faced with such peer pressure

[Akka]

Perhaps you should back down here and make sure you aren't being foolish.

Man, you manage to quote a sentence that directly contradict you and I'm the one having to make sure I'm not being foolish ?
I'm... at a loss for words.

"In computing, an emulator is hardware or software that enables one computer system (called the host) to behave like another computer system (called the guest). An emulator typically enables the host system to run software or use peripheral devices designed for the guest system."

What an emulator lets you do is execute a program on a system other than the one it was intended for. It doesn't REPLACE that program, it allows it to run.

Your use of the term "emulation" is incorrect.

Let me see...

What I said :
Emulation means reproducing the behaviour of a program without copying its code.
What is said IN YOUR OWN FUCKING QUOTE :
an emulator is hardware or software that enables one computer system [...] to behave like another computer system

HOLY SHIT ! Okay, I left out the "hardware" part, but except that, it's funny it seems it's exactly the same meaning !
"Emulator = reproducing the behaviour !
You totally showed me, man. Probably not what you intended, but you did.

I have no inside knowledge of what they did. They might, as one example, perhaps have changed IP addresses to allow the client to point to their server instead of one of Blizzard's.

Modification of a copyrighted program is creation of a derivative work. The right to create derivative works is one of the rights controlled under copyright law.

So you have no knowledge of what they did, but you accuse them of doing it. Gotcha.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

or they have more fucking clue when make long-term decisions, like smaller studios don't have to make, or are not faced with such peer pressure

Not really, no. If they had a clue, WoD wouldn't have been the disaster it was.

[Struggle]

Now tell me this, how many games have you bought can you still play after god knows how many years later? I still have a NES that I play, why can't I play a game that I bought 12 years ago as well? It's not an entitled feeling to want to play something that you purchased.

T. H. I. S.

I still to this day replay A Link to the Past at least once a year. Burning Crusade is still my favorite game of all time...and I haven't gotten to play it for 8 years.

[Osmeric]

Man, you manage to quote a sentence that directly contradict you and I'm the one having to make sure I'm not being foolish ?
I'm... at a loss for wordss

You appear not to be a person with any sort of commitment to honesty, but let's give this one more try.

You removed the sentence that explained what the first sentence in the quote meant.

An emulator is a program that runs on a computer that enables that computer to run programs intended for another computer.

It is not a program intended to replicate the function of another program.

This is a simple concept, and you could admit the point without really losing anything. All you have to say is "fine, Nost didn't 'emulate', but rather replaced the server with a program of their own design". Not sure why you feel being shown wrong about a point of terminology (and you are wrong) is so threatening.

[Gondorian]

Those numbers mean nothing. That is what I am trying to say. Great for a PS, but clearly you can see blizzard might expect more? That also says nothing about who is going to pay, how long they might play etc. Just take a step back and think about things here.

Take your own advice. I'm not trying to attack you or anything, but the world is not always as clear cut as you're trying to make it be. First off, anyone who posts on the internet and get's involved is a minority. This falls in to play for the petition, users playing on nostalrius and people voicing their opinions on the idea of legacy servers. Based on what I just said, it should be easy to realize that more people have a position that are voicing it, and more people would play on legacy servers if they were blizzard sanctioned and not done by a private group.

In regards to who is paying, how long etc. Blizzard doesn't even know this for current subscribers. They only have conjectures of how long people are going to play an expansion based on prior releases. I guarantee their predictions are higher than what is actually occurring simply by the means of the continued subscriber base dwindling at the end of each expansion. Their predictions are based on the fall of subscribers between patches and expansions in the past, so they have to make predictions of how many more they would lose during their next cycle.

I'm going back to my Runescape example, they didn't really know how many people would play, they anticipated it being smaller than what it was. I can tell you why, more people want to do something than will voice their opinion. And I will keep hammering the same point, there is no financial concern for Blizzard to attempt legacy servers. They have operated many more servers than they have at this point, they have employed many more GMs than they do currently, and they currently have more developers than they have ever had before. They have had failed game concepts that they have scrapped costing them millions of dollars in sunk cost. The sunk cost for opening a few legacy servers would be well under a million. Where do I get this number, how can it be so low? They have the assets, they have the staff, they have the money. Their costs for trying this for 6 months would fall within the under $1,000,000 range. Simply tie the access to the server for a $15 subscription. To break even assuming this venture for 6 months would cost $1 million they would need less than 12,000 paying subscribers each month. So assuming if HALF of the active player base on nostalrius paid for the game. This would exclude all other people that would pay for this service if it were blizzard sanction. That puts this number at 75K paying subscribers. By doing some basic calculations this means they would be operating at a profit.

[BreakerOfWills]

if those 100k people signed a petition sayin theyd pay for a year of a legacy server upfront maybe then id take em seriously. Until then, tough titty.

[A dot Ham]

There is plenty of public outcry and like I said before, I guarantee their reason for not opening legacy servers is not a monetary reason, they have other motivations holding them back. Also there already is a message and it has over 100k signatures. https://www.change.org/p/mike-morhai...iter=522873458

You can't guarantee anything. You have no more information than the rest of us.

This is just as vague as "I bet there are even more" and "blizzard could make tons of money".

Its this whole wishful thinking, field of dreams talk "If you build it they will come"

Stop speaking passionately, leave your emotions at the door... its a sad truth but no one gives a fuck about your feels. Start speaking factually, numbers that can be verified, facts with sources, no speculation.

[Aggrophobic]

Mark Kern, one of the initial team lead of World of Warcraft (also worked on Diablo II & Starcraft), have an opinion to share about this:

Source: https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/720972885871865856

Oh, Mark Kern. Yeah, I'm not so sure you'd want to take his advice on anything game related.

[Gondorian]

You can't guarantee anything. You have no more information than the rest of us.

This is just as vague as "I bet there are even more" and "blizzard could make tons of money".

Its this whole wishful thinking, field of dreams talk "If you build it they will come"

Stop speaking passionately, leave your emotions at the door... its a sad truth but no one gives a fuck about your feels. Start speaking factually, numbers that can be verified, facts with sources, no speculation.

I'm sorry, but have you had an education? Because it sure doesn't take a genius to know that all business ventures have risk and reward. Blizzard has risked far more money into projects they have scrapped. The monetary risk for them to try this venture is extremely low. This isn't an emotional thing for me, it's simple business knowledge, and based on the size of Activision Blizzard, and their revenue and profits for each year. This is just another day in the park. They easily pay more money in settling suits filed against them each year than the cost to operate a couple legacy servers.

Also, you were vehemently against this thread a few days ago, yet here you are continuing to post. It's hard to take someone seriously when they go back on their own beliefs.

[shihori]

I find it really weird how some people are like "WHAT?!? Legacy servers in my WoW? Never!". The way some of you are reacting to this, is almost as if you believe legacy servers would replace the current ones.

I would definitely give legacy servers a try. Maybe I'd enjoy it, maybe not. Even if I still prefer the current game, it's not like people wanting legacy servers would take away my own enjoyment of the game.

[Ielenia]

Oh give me a fucking break lol. The servers were not free, I doubt they were keeping money for themselves.

And I doubt they weren't keeping money for themselves. The point is: we have no way of knowing the truth, and their word isn't worth a damn.

[Deleted]

46 k to 150 k subs on that petition! GOGOGO