Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Vineri]

Wow.. the Nos defense crew is out in full force I see. "No, it's not illegal what they did!" "Noone who wants vanilla will play Legion anyway" etc etc. I have yet to see 1 coherent argument that shows that blizzard might want to try "legacy servers".

I assume (for now, because neither camps have any numbers besides "Look at this one poll someone made randomly lol!") that the amount of players Blizzard has to make servers is just not enough to justify it. And as someone else said, currently the Legion launch and preparation has a slightly higher priority than some kiddies that ran a server illegally (because again, it was still illegal what they did).

Also, please don't come with the "But blizzard had a picture moment with the Nos crew so that must mean servers are coming!". Nice theory, but it still holds no water whatsoever.

If legacy servers came about, I'd try out Legions as well, assuming they would be bundled as one account package. It's not likely to hold as much long term commitment as Legacy, if any, though. Interest in Legacy and Retail aren't mutually exclusive, as you seem to wrongfully & illogically assert?

If Legacy doesn't happen, then I'm not wasting more money on Blizzard / WoW. WoW is lower quality. Starcraft - hmm .. Warcraft RTS is AWOL, Diablo is lower quality. Not the same company any more that I grew up with. There are hundreds, if not thousands of good games by other companies to play for now.

[8bithamster]

If legacy servers came about, I'd try out Legions as well, assuming they would be bundled as one account package. It's not likely to hold as much long term commitment as Legacy, if any, though. Interest in Legacy and Retail aren't mutually exclusive, as you seem to wrongfully & illogically assert?

If Legacy doesn't happen, then I'm not wasting more money on Blizzard / WoW. WoW is lower quality. Starcraft - hmm .. Warcraft RTS is AWOL, Diablo is lower quality. Not the same company any more that I grew up with. There are hundreds, if not thousands of good games by other companies to play for now.

And where did I state they are mutually exclusive? Please do quote me on that. What I said is what people here say a lot:

"I won't play Legion because there are no classic servers, everyone I know feels the same" etc etc.

Seriously, if that happened (and that's a huge if), it would not have any impact on the subscriber numbers. Those 100 people? Neh, not important enough.

[striderZA]

It's not likely to hold as much long term commitment as Legacy, if any, though.

I'd like to see the long-term commitment of the player base to a game that is in a broken state compared to live and that receives no updates in content or balance.

[Deleted]

I'd like to see the long-term commitment of the player base to a game that is in a broken state compared to live and that receives no updates in content or balance.

From legacy players perspective, the current wow version is the broken one.

Hobbyists do not have a vanilla game. They have a server emulator which is not related to it in any way (except reading the stolen datafiles), that approximates the vanilla game experience. It is nowhere near to the level of quality and authenticity of the real WoW classic server.

That may be true, but nostalrius was almost like the old vanilla servers. Which is already satisfying enough. Especially if like blizzard said the original game is lost.

As for the lack of communication regarding legacy servers from blizzard, it is quite obvious they d want to focus on legion at this point , on a PR basis. If we hear more about legacy servers, it would be after legion release.

[Jeniwyn]

From legacy players perspective, the current wow version is the broken one.

Indeed. And probably beyond repair at this point.

[Vineri]

And where did I state they are mutually exclusive? Please do quote me on that. What I said is what people here say a lot:

"I won't play Legion because there are no classic servers, everyone I know feels the same" etc etc.

Seriously, if that happened (and that's a huge if), it would not have any impact on the subscriber numbers. Those 100 people? Neh, not important enough.

Well you did take the minority Legacy fans and try to roll it up into a huge stereo-type. While you did not mention mutually exclusive it was the vibe that was posted; a danger of stereo-types.

If the two (or more?) versions of the game are included into the same account package, sure I'd try Legions. If they are separate package deals, I'd likely just stick to retro. If no Legacy, then I'm happy with other games. My suspicion is that they would be bundled, as to introduce the "new" to the folks playing the "old" versions of WoW. Good marketing.

Your argument falls apart when you now assert that only 100 people are interested in Legacy. Sure it was a gross exaggeration to strengthen whatever point you were trying to make, I get that. But it also makes people take you less seriously.

I guess if we are just pulling numbers out of thin air, then there are currently 5 million players using private servers. Ahh Sesame Street's Ernie. Teaching everyone fun with numbers (manipulation).

[Perkunas]

Indeed. And probably beyond repair at this point.

I don't think it's beyond repair so much as Blizzard doesn't really know what's wrong with it. They respond to everything with "MAKE IT MORE ACCESSIBLE!!!" and it doesn't increase player retention at all. They are merely creating more apathy by making everything easier to do and achieve. Time and effort has to be the model and if people can't put in both time and effort THEY SHOULDN'T GET THE REWARD. '

There was a brilliant quote I read on The Old Republic forums when it was in beta by a user named Sevvy on the topic of entitlement of players in the genre. “This attitude seems like a new thing. I’ve been playing MMOs for years. When I didn’t have the time to raid or grind out money or camp rare spawns, I just didn’t get the gear I wanted. I accepted it, and when a fully geared dude came along and kicked my ass, I accepted it. I’m not sure what has happened, but as of late, there has been a sense of entitlement with EVERYONE. I blame WoW.” I personally believe he was spot on with that assessment and the only way to make an omelet at this point is to crack a few eggs.

[Tackhisis]

This attitude seems like a new thing. I’ve been playing MMOs for years. When I didn’t have the time to raid or grind out money or camp rare spawns, I just didn’t get the gear I wanted.

Well, people eventually got tired for paying money and not getting what they wanted. MMOs are not the only online games now, so they have to adopt.

[Vineri]

Well, people eventually got tired for paying money and not getting what they wanted. MMOs are not the only online games now, so they have to adopt.

Which might make sense, if WoW wasn't at an all-time high subscription count, while people couldn't get what they wanted. Some gave up, but most tried harder. Servers were heavily populated during the entire course of a Legacy expansion. Quarterly data from 2004-2010 show this. Accessibility implementations was when numbers tanked, LFD for instance.

As for other online MMORPG's, Legacy WoW is the one worth playing. It's awesome, the danger was real. exploring was scary. PVP-servers had fun and exhilarating methods to achieve PVP - no flying mounts - no safe spots. Just tact and a clever will to survive, or to murder your opponent. PVE had areas you would never go without friends, or if solo, they could be seen - if very patient to observe / avoid patrol routines. Legacy was a much deeper and intricate game. Certainly a more interesting game, a virtual world, created by Blizzard.

There is much to be loved about Legacy. It was a game within a game, if that makes sense.

[Froggy]

As for other online MMORPG's, Legacy WoW is the one worth playing. It's awesome, the danger was real. exploring was scary. PVP-servers had fun and exhilarating methods to achieve PVP - no flying mounts - no safe spots. Just tact and a clever will to survive, or to murder your opponent.

This is a key point, and one of the reasons I had such an amazing time on Nostalrius and why I so badly want Blizz to make Vanilla servers. That feeling of danger, not only from enemy players, but even NPC's. Because in Vanilla an extra add or two can easily mean death. While in current WoW, it means nothing, you'll plow through them all with ease.

[Mahourai]

Accessibility implementations was when numbers tanked, LFD for instance.

Accessibility improvements in Wrath coincide with the subscriber peak of the game. The Dungeon Finder in particular was implemented in 2010 and the game sustained 12 million subs for the following year. The idea that accessibility drove people away just doesn't mesh with the actual data.

[Vineri]

Accessibility improvements in Wrath coincide with the subscriber peak of the game. The Dungeon Finder in particular was implemented in 2010 and the game sustained 12 million subs for the following year. The idea that accessibility drove people away just doesn't mesh with the actual data.

12 million in 2010, yes. Bleeding every quarter since. Only slightly over 10M by 2011. 2011 was a very bad year (http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2400-WoW-Lost-300k-Subscribers-Patch-4-3-this-year-Blizzcon-2011-Tickets-Blue-Posts?page=28)

300k sub losses that quarter, 600k before that, etc.

[Ethenil]

Hello, I'm new to this discussion and I know little of the topic at hand. I personally would like to see legacy servers only so I could experience the world and questlines and such as it was before the Cataclysm.

I understand many legacy servers have a patch cycle that goes as Vanilla went back in the day, and that Nostalrius was going to open TBC servers too.

My question to supporters is: how would an official legacy server be maintained after the last patch of Vanilla? Go on to TBC? And then what? What happens after two years of no new content?

Thank you

[Vineri]

Hello, I'm new to this discussion and I know little of the topic at hand. I personally would like to see legacy servers only so I could experience the world and questlines and such as it was before the Cataclysm.

I understand many legacy servers have a patch cycle that goes as Vanilla went back in the day, and that Nostalrius was going to open TBC servers too.

My question to supporters is: how would an official legacy server be maintained after the last patch of Vanilla? Go on to TBC? And then what? What happens after two years of no new content?

Thank you

Hi, and welcome!

To answer your question, nobody knows how Blizzard will implement Legacy. Some choices might be separate servers for each expansion cap, with a one-time transfer ability to "upgrade", or .. my favorite .. release WoW 1.0, then correlate each patch and expansion pack to coincide with actual dates .. 12 years off, naturally.

Blizzard is not quite up to the speed they used to be known for, so expect delays.

[Mahourai]

12 million in 2010, yes. Bleeding every quarter since. Only slightly over 10M by 2011. 2011 was a very bad year (http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2400-WoW-Lost-300k-Subscribers-Patch-4-3-this-year-Blizzcon-2011-Tickets-Blue-Posts?page=28)

300k sub losses that quarter, 600k before that, etc.

Before I even bother to respond to this, do you want to explain why you initially asserted that LFD is correlated with subs tanking, when the exact opposite is true?

[Kyanion]

Before I even bother to respond to this, do you want to explain why you initially asserted that LFD is correlated with subs tanking, when the exact opposite is true?

Because it fits his narrative despite WotLK hitting higher numbers than Vanilla did. TBC and WotLK both had more players than Vanilla and things that got added didn't instantly RUIN the game.

[Mahourai]

Because it fits his narrative despite WotLK hitting higher numbers than Vanilla did.

Right, of course this is the answer.

The problem with using sub losses to explain things is that you can correlate sub losses to basically any kind of design decision. You want stuff to be easy? Then the losses in early Cataclysm are because of the hard heroic dungeons and tightly tuned raid content. You want stuff to be hard? The sub losses in DS are because of LFR and a pushover final boss. You want to justify Mythic raids and denigrate the designs done during Pandaria? Well WoW returned to 10 million subs after we left. You want to denigrate Mythic raids and explain why Pandaria was better? Well WoW lost the gains and then some.

Subs were lost during periods where the game was made less casual, more casual, and kept at about the same accessibility too. Subs are basically a worthless metric. It's just even sillier to cite a clearly nonexistent trend downward in subs to justify your distaste for matchmaking.

[Vineri]

Before I even bother to respond to this, do you want to explain why you initially asserted that LFD is correlated with subs tanking, when the exact opposite is true?

The enthusiasm was gone? It's not unreasonable to play / evaluate changes for a year, then cast the unsubscribe vote?

It's not the case where a change is implemented and players start dropping like flies immediately. It's the repetition and boredom players felt when the pasttime they loved became a lobby game. Either way, subs dropped AFTER LFD. Not before. AFTER.

LFD was an anti-social disaster. Furthered only with LRF and CRZ, dismissing any possibility for future communities.

As to the exact opposite being true, you will need to explain that yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

Because it fits his narrative despite WotLK hitting higher numbers than Vanilla did. TBC and WotLK both had more players than Vanilla and things that got added didn't instantly RUIN the game.

I guess you need to read of the discussion first, before posting. But I guess that would no longer fit your narrative?

- - - Updated - - -

Subs were lost during periods where the game was made less casual, more casual, and kept at about the same accessibility too. Subs are basically a worthless metric. It's just even sillier to cite a clearly nonexistent trend downward in subs to justify your distaste for matchmaking.

Because Blizzard is trying to cater to everyone at the same time. There is no clear focus as to who this game is designed for. Is it the casuals? Is it the RPG'ers? Fans? Non-fans with low entry level?

Blizzard seems to be burning a single candle at 4 ends. Legacy Vanilla and TBC had 1 candle wick. WOTLK 2. Every subsequent expansion has more .. 3+ UGH!

[Thresh1]

The enthusiasm was gone? It's not unreasonable to play / evaluate changes for a year, then cast the unsubscribe vote?

It's not the case where a change is implemented and players start dropping like flies immediately. It's the repetition and boredom players felt when the pasttime they loved became a lobby game. Either way, subs dropped AFTER LFD. Not before. AFTER.

LFD was an anti-social disaster. Furthered only with LRF and CRZ, dismissing any possibility for future communities.

As to the exact opposite being true, you will need to explain that yourself.

Totally agree. Convenience isn't always a good thing.

[Sastank]

This thing's still going huh? See all you "legacy plz" people in Legion next month. Or sooner actually since a lot are probably already back :P Now be so kind and stop being annoying spamming legacy every Thursday in the Warcraft twitch stream thanks