Gear gating players behind later levels of Mythic+ (The new CMs)?

[Pantalaimon]

So I know this has been touched somewhat in other threads, but with the new information released about Mythic+ dungeons I wanted to see if the community could provide some feedback/discussion on this now. In particular, the latest information ends with talking about the most difficult combination of affixes that are currently planned; "BTW, unrelated, as some brave souls are noticing, keystone level 6 is very, very hard at this gear level. Looks like the first affix combo up is Tyrannical+Decay, which is a particularly difficult combo to try to brute-force while undergeared." I know that players have been worried that the new legion CMs will turn into a Mythic Raiding only party when it comes down to the most hard core, and that the rewards offered by this content will cap off at a level that you can only reach with an arbitrary mythic raiding ilvl, compared to the live game where only trinkets & class comp really allow or prevent current players from being the best.

MMOC do you think Legion will turn the new CMs into an activity that mostly just rewards mythic raiders with the best rewards, or do you think it will work how it is now where you can have very decent players who do CMs but are not mythic raiders? Also, on a side note, do we know yet if there will be any unique rewards in the new CMs (such as titles, mounts, or transmog), and if so do we know yet if the level of keystone you have to acquire is only capable with mythic raid gear?

[Eapoe]

Yes, there is definitely an advantage mythic raiders will have, especially early on in the xpac. Last design I saw they are going to give a reward once a week that equals mythic gear based on how high up the CM level you got. Compare this to mythic raiders. On a good string of RNG in raid clears they will gear up much faster than others giving a huge advantage at the early stages of clearing. Maybe once gear evens out, probably 6+ months in than casuals will start clearing up to the same levels, but by that time you have to take into account if it's even worth it because next tier will probably be out.
The only way to change that is if they equalize gear similar to how it works on Live, but last I knew they are not doing that. So, in a nutshell, yes, mythic raiders will have a slight advantage. Not sure how much has changed since but I made a long forum post about the design flaw in CM's that, in part, discusses this very topic.

[Kuntantee]

I personaly find this model of CM much better. At -fucking- last, the gear that one gets is going to be useful outside of raiding. The only problem I have is the timer. I do not find timed design to be fun.

[Eapoe]

They need the timer though or it negates part of the challenge. No timer=slow ass pulling and not pushing yourself to make it. You could literally CC everything but 1 mob at a time and play it safe. Sure, you can have immune targets, but then again, pull>kill>relax and get all resources/CDs again for next pack.

[oqtopus]

i agree that they need the timer

dont forget that you can still open the chest for loot even tho you didnt complete it in time

[Rikhart]

I personaly find this model of CM much better. At -fucking- last, the gear that one gets is going to be useful outside of raiding. The only problem I have is the timer. I do not find timed design to be fun.

The gear you get from raiding is useless outside of raiding? Lol. Its useful for pretty much anything except pet battles, thats a weird thing to say.

[Wondercrab]

They're making a push to offer more content to people who enjoy dungeons in Legion, so I'd be very surprised if high mythic levels don't reward gear that's just as good as what can be obtained in raids. Mythic raiding will still presumably be the fastest and most efficient way to gear up, but if they're smart about it they'll offer rewards of equal power from dungeons. It wouldn't make sense to design dungeon content that's gated behind mythic raiding. That being said, Blizzard have done silly stuff like this in the past, but I'll remain optimistic for now.

[Kuntantee]

The gear you get from raiding is useless outside of raiding? Lol. Its useful for pretty much anything except pet battles, thats a weird thing to say.

Technically, yes. The degree of usefulness? Quite low.

[Osmeric]

MMOC do you think Legion will turn the new CMs into an activity that mostly just rewards mythic raiders with the best rewards,

Yes, I think that is what will happen.

The popularity of timed runs can be gauged by what fraction of current players have done the CMs. It's pitifully small, especially for Silver and Gold levels.

[Wildmoon]

They need the timer though or it negates part of the challenge. No timer=slow ass pulling and not pushing yourself to make it. You could literally CC everything but 1 mob at a time and play it safe. Sure, you can have immune targets, but then again, pull>kill>relax and get all resources/CDs again for next pack.

I think that's they want you to do. The new CM is not supposed to be timed by design. Raids do not need to be timed to be challenging.

[nazrakin]

So I know this has been touched somewhat in other threads, but with the new information released about Mythic+ dungeons I wanted to see if the community could provide some feedback/discussion on this now. In particular, the latest information ends with talking about the most difficult combination of affixes that are currently planned; "BTW, unrelated, as some brave souls are noticing, keystone level 6 is very, very hard at this gear level. Looks like the first affix combo up is Tyrannical+Decay, which is a particularly difficult combo to try to brute-force while undergeared." I know that players have been worried that the new legion CMs will turn into a Mythic Raiding only party when it comes down to the most hard core, and that the rewards offered by this content will cap off at a level that you can only reach with an arbitrary mythic raiding ilvl, compared to the live game where only trinkets & class comp really allow or prevent current players from being the best.

MMOC do you think Legion will turn the new CMs into an activity that mostly just rewards mythic raiders with the best rewards, or do you think it will work how it is now where you can have very decent players who do CMs but are not mythic raiders? Also, on a side note, do we know yet if there will be any unique rewards in the new CMs (such as titles, mounts, or transmog), and if so do we know yet if the level of keystone you have to acquire is only capable with mythic raid gear?

Well whats missing in the current testing is the gear that you should be getting from doing the Mythics. Presumably, the chest you get at the end of a run will net you upgrades that you can use to beat subsequent levels. So if your group does hit a "gear gate" you'd eventually be able to overcome it by collecting more gear from the chest.

[Supercool]

Maybe the fact that it's five-man will be enough, but I thought the point of the new CMs is that they were semi-grindable content. Attaching them to mythic dungeons which have a weekly lockout just makes them miniature raids anyway.

[Deleted]

I think the basic idea is nothing less than genius. But we still have to see how those rewards turn out to be. In general it's the right way to let those with better equip get better equip. When you are in a HC raid and barely manage to kill a boss, you get HC raid loot that helps you fight that HC boss until you have enough loot to switch to Mythic. When you do a Level 3 CM dungeon, you get loot respective to that level, so that you have a better chance to beat the next level next week. That system is simple and fair. And since it's unlimited, players with mythic equip might still have something to aim for. I'd actually really like it if there was a server wide notice to announce groups who reach the first place with a new highscore, like "Players [insert player names] beat [insert dungeon name] level 20!".

Also the 45 minute timer is nice because it's not really a limitation for regular play, but a limitation against "cheesing it"

[thilicen]

It's called challenge mode after all. And since when does mythic dungeons require mythic raid gear / skills?

[Deleted]

They said at Blizzcon that *rewards* will cap before the actual *difficulty* will cap, so above some level it'll be for bragging rights, not gear. So it really depends, if what they said is true, you can get all there is to get from M+ with gear from M+. And there are no leaderboards planned, if I understand correctly.

[Eapoe]

There's no set way they are doing loot yet. Yes, there's a chest at the end, but the chance for mythic gear is once a week (planned, not finalized) per an interview about them. So more than likely it will be normal gear in the chest and then a bonus chest on Mon/Tues based on the highest you cleared.
Also, there is no official leaderboard at this time, but someone will make a website to post and keep track of unofficial leaderboards with best comps and gear requisites.

[Rikhart]

Technically, yes. The degree of usefulness? Quite low.

It is 100% useful, and the most powerful thing available, on everything except CMs and pet battles.

[Deavane]

It's called challenge mode after all. And since when does mythic dungeons require mythic raid gear / skills?

He's implying that later keystone ranks (per say rank 9/12, etc.) will not be do-able without mythic quality gear or that those levels will be do-able much earlier by individuals whom have mythic gear. The latter is most definitely true I would assume. As mobs scale, eventually even current tier mythic gear will not be enough assuming there's so ceiling to the keystone ranks (is there a ceiling?).

[Eapoe]

I think that's they want you to do. The new CM is not supposed to be timed by design. Raids do not need to be timed to be challenging.

Again though, these are based on the premise of greater rifts from D3. So times run with scaling difficulty in the sense of higher health/harder hitting mobs and greater challenges in the sense of random affixes. So the timer is completely justified and to be expected to make players push themselves.

[Kuntantee]

It is 100% useful, and the most powerful thing available, on everything except CMs and pet battles.

What is there other than raiding?

-Questing
-PvP
-Dungeons

Who raids in heroics or mythics to quest, to PvP or to do dungeons? Answer: no one. There isn't a mechanical incentive to do raids other than raiding further. Your point is invalid. Do you even play WoW?