What the Aztecs actually thought Cortès was ?

[sarahtasher]

I thought this would be a nice change on discussion on Trumps or ''SJW'' stuff.

Suffice to say, the classical interpretation ''they thought he was a god'', while not exactly false, is apparently an oversimplfiication.

1)The nahualt term used for ''god'', teotl, while used to describe their gods, probably had a vastly different sense that greeco-romans, let alone judeo-christian, god(s). Rather tellingly, Quetzalcoalt was both a god and the ruler of the city of Tollan/Tula (see later). It was also the name of quite numerous rulers, pre-Aztec ones. ''Teotl'' was also the name given to dudes climbing the stairs of sacrificial pyramids. Otherwise said, ''teotl'' was used both to describe gods and, for the lack of a better term, Humans replaying (or rather, cosplaying....I use that term to stress out the importance of costumes) the actions of Gods. It might even mean something like ''force of nature'', AKA executing the will of the Gods/supranatural forces, not a God itself.

2)The degree of cyclical thought in Aztec world conception is hard to grasp for people used to a linear timeline, but appears to have been quite central for the locals. To take a degree of comparison, let's say that the average player of JRPGs or RPGs known quite well the trope about the old and mysterious empire that died aeons ago and was incredibly powerful, whose ruins still dot the landscape (presumably filled with various eddritch abominations). The Aztecs took this for granted altough for fairly obvious political reasons

They saw themselves as the heirs of the previous grand civilization of Meso-America, dubbed by them as ''Toltecs''.

(There is obviously a culture called ''Toltec'' that existed in Meso-America, but ''Toltec'' amounts to ''Grand Ancients'' or ''Forerunners'' : it means roughly ''the builders'' or ''the master artisans''. To confuse further, ''toltec'' was used in Nahualt to describe actual living artisans and scholars, AKA ''civilized people''. It was used in opposition to ''chichimec'', whose sense is close to the Roman-Greek ''Barbarian'', meaning ''cityless hunter-gatherer'', which the Aztecs themselves used to describe their warriors)

Suffice to say, the capital of the Toltecs was called ''Tollan'' (Tollan, ''amongst the reeds'' a metaphor for ''where humans are as thick as reeds'', AKA a metropolis, usually in the sense of ''THE metropolis'', like ''Urbs'' came to meant Rome) and ''Tollan'' was a title given quite openly to three distinct cities

-Teotihuacan (lit : the birth place of the Gods), a sprawling complex of ruins, thought nowadays to have fallen around 700 AD
-Tula (the capital of the Toltecs), that have fallen around 1150 AD
-Tenochtitlan (the capital of the Aztecs)

Teotihuacan and Tula (whose locations were perfectly known, they were not hidden in a volcano or anything) were for the denizens of Meso-American something like Rome for medieval travelers (or any urban ruins in a videogame) : the proof that huge and fearsome empires had existed and had now vanished.

There are two ways to interpret this, in no way contradictory.
A)The Aztecs used the heritage of Teotihuacan, it's legacy, to justify their expansionism
B)The Aztecs believed to a large degree that Teotihuacan, Tula and Tenochtitlan were three incarnations of ''Tollan'' : the capital city, the pinnacle of civilization (''toltec'') that thanks to cyclical time will fall a day, but will be rebuilt by a tough group of warriors nomads (''chichimecs'') that will rebuilt it and become ''civilzed'' in their time.

TLDR : for Aztecs, that a group of unstoppable warriors come to unseat them was quite normal, since their own mythos was them doing exactly this for the sake of rebuilding Tollan. That those would have been ''white'' warriors is much more discutable, as well as the association with ''Quetzalcoalt'', Quetzalcoalt being the divinity of the urban dwellers by excellence.

The Aztecs, rulers of a grand empire and used to constant rebellions, were not exactly stupid : they gathered rather quickly that the Spaniards were there for conquering, which, per cyclical time conception, was excepted to come a day. While it's possible that some existential dread seized Montezuma, the Aztecs likely thought that the Spaniards were ''teotl'' in the sense of replaying the rise of power of the Aztecs (AKA, Cortès is the latest avatar of a tough tribal leader cosplaying a war god that come to remove from power the city dwellers that do not longer honour with enough fervour the Gods)

[GennGreymane]

Stuff like this makes me wish I was more familiar with this branch of history.

[sarahtasher]

For the record, no, I'm not studying aztec stuff, I watched the Mysterious Cities of Gold.

[Techno-Druid]

Despite the ways Aztecs have been painted for their sacrificial rituals, they were still an advanced people. The Aztecs farmed corn and they built canals.

[sarahtasher]

I'm not going into the advanced/primitive debate. What is sure is that the Aztecs themselves thought that they were, themselves, partly, a group of rough and ready barbarians (Chichimecas) ready for war all the time, while being at the same time also the heirs of the sophitsticate and very advanced, twice fallen, civilization of Tollan. Culture, knowledege, and arts, all came from the Toltecs.

[Deleted]

Stuff like this makes me wish I was more familiar with this branch of history.

Or that we knew more about it.

Thanks for this Sarahtasher. Very interesting read.

[GennGreymane]

Or that we knew more about it.

Thanks for this Sarahtasher. Very interesting read.

Who knows what coulda been in central america in the past. We find new ruins overtaken by the plant life, some times almost totally erased by it. Makes you wonder what we will never be able to find.

[Deleted]

It is actually quite interesting to think that they somehow gathered the knowledge of their own regional past, and somehow came to the realization/idea that they themselves likely would one day become extinct or changed, either at the hand of a foreign nation, internal conflict or a natural disaster.

Rather impressive

[ParanoiD84]

They invented Soccer to, with human sacrifices during half time

[Deleted]

Who knows what coulda been in central america in the past. We find new ruins overtaken by the plant life, some times almost totally erased by it. Makes you wonder what we will never be able to find.

Exactly. Maybe with time we'll find more I guess. Still though. It's a pity we dont have their documented history. Like... records from their time in numbers. Similar to say the Romans.

[Teebone]

They invented Soccer to, with human sacrifices during half time

Whoa, just thought of a way to popularize soccer in the U.S.

[GennGreymane]

Exactly. Maybe with time we'll find more I guess. Still though. It's a pity we dont have their documented history. Like... records from their time in numbers. Similar to say the Romans.

Some do, we just dont have the ability to translate. Only reason we know some ancient languages is because of the Rosetta stone.

[Deleted]

They invented Soccer to, with human sacrifices during half time

Werent they playing with elbows and knees though?

[Independent voter]

It's almost like an alien invasion, the Spanish wore their plate mail, looking like human beetles. The two cultures were so different that they had a very hard time understanding each other.

Also, the neighboring tribes in the area hated the Aztecs with a passion and helped the Spanish all they could.

[ParanoiD84]

Werent they playing with elbows and knees though?

Would not be surprised if they did throw in a human head or elbows and knees, most of the time they used a small robber ball to shoot into iron rings mounted on walls.

- - - Updated - - -

Whoa, just thought of a way to popularize soccer in the U.S.

Haha yeah they where abit crazy like whenever one team scored they were allowed to try to rob the spectators, now that sounds like fun. but different times different rules .

[Reeve]

I've been to Teotihuacan. It was crazy, because there was literally no one in the ruins except for me, my coworker, and our driver. No other tourists, no employees, no guards, nothing. We had the run of the place entirely to ourselves, and it was amazing.

[sarahtasher]

Some do, we just dont have the ability to translate. Only reason we know some ancient languages is because of the Rosetta stone.

There is an history of the Aztecs recorded by the Nahualt speakers. Most of what we known of the Aztecs are from it. It was collected by Spanish friars, who did really what they could, but obviously something recorded decades after the fact by interviewees that were toddlers at the time is not without flaws.

Exemple : the Aztec Empire was actually a triple alliance of three insular cities. One of those was Texcoco. One of the ruler of this city, Nezahualcoyotl, is described as a king-maker, the power behind the throne, etc....

...but that bit was wrote (in Spanish) by Ixtlilxóchitl, his direct descendant...

Otherwise said, it's useful to have the cronica wrote by Ixtlilxóchitl, it is indeed a compilation of what was left at that time (1600ish) of the Aztec tradition, but you can't avoid wondering if the illustrious ancestor is not a bit lionized...

[GennGreymane]

There is an history of the Aztecs recorded by the Nahualt speakers. Most of what we known of the Aztecs are from it. It was collected by Spanish friars, who did really what they could, but obviously something recorded decades after the fact by interviewees that were toddlers at the time is not without flaws.

Exemple : the Aztec Empire was actually a triple alliance of three insular cities. One of those was Texcoco. One of the ruler of this city, Nezahualcoyotl, is described as a king-maker, the power behind the throne, etc....

...but that bit was wrote (in Spanish) by Ixtlilxóchitl, his direct descendant...

Otherwise said, it's useful to have the cronica wrote by Ixtlilxóchitl, it is indeed a compilation of what was left at that time (1600ish) of the Aztec tradition, but you can't avoid wondering if the illustrious ancestor is not a bit lionized...

Thats the issue though, it came from people who were very young at the time and may not remember it as well. We def can figure out some things, but this will be lost unless we discover a way to translate.

[Poopymonster]

An asshole.

[Destump]

They invented Soccer to, with human sacrifices during half time

and the losers were all sacrificed too, right? at least that's what I always understood.