Why the catch up mechanics purpose defeat themselves.

[Stagga24]

So if LFR means you get to see more content, then why have a catch up mechanism? that just means people are skipping other content created. If you let everyone catch up their alts, then you are essentially nerfing your starting zones. So by having catch up mechanisms you either nerf content, or mean people skip content either way you are inherently creating bad gameplay. Furthermore, by letting people catch up to the current content it means no one is doing the previous content. If say I want to run Heroic BRF because I'd like to do it no one else would be because "dude just go to tanaan" I don't want to grind mobs i'd like to play the MMORPG with other people and with mechanics. If i wanted to sit by myself and grind i'd play a korean mmo. I also think that some of the reason people want to over gear dungeons and stuff is because. if you can get to 705 in 10 hours, why would you take someone who is super fresh to max level and prolly boosted the toon? they probably have hardly any in depth knowledge of how to be effective compared to someone that actually played their toon. (that argument is shaky i know) Just my two cents though. wanted to see if anyone shared these thoughts.

[Manabomb]

Mostly because catch up mechanisms are there for alts or after the content has finished being relevant. And yes, I know the age old argument "all content is relevant to everyone", but content being difficult isn't what made it epic or amazing.

A lot (and I mean a LOT) of people who play this game play it for reasons that have nothing to do with stats on gear or catching up to other players. I myself played the game for a whole year with nothing but transmog as my desire to play. Couldn't care less about any other aspect of the game if it didn't involve me getting the look I desired.

So while yes, the idea that getting the entire game handed to them is bad, that's their choice on playing the game if they want to pursue it that way. There are plenty of content mediums in the game that still have that age old sense of dull repetitive gear progression. (raiding, after 10 years, still has the vast majority of loot coming from boss drops)

So I'd say, no. Catch up mechanics just like "casual" difficulty modes or other non-bleeding edge progression forms of gameplay are not purposefully self-defeating. They exist to cater to people that play the game for other reasons than you do.

[Stagga24]

Well I definately wouldn't want anyone to miss out on what makes them enjoy the game but, the question here is whats the point of the catch up gear and how does it effect the game.

If the point is - To help catch up alts to max level content then it does that well. However, it defeats itself because you skip to raids worth of max level content to get to the last tier.

If the point is - To allow others to catch up for the new expansion release it does that well, but then it effects the people that level later, just started the game, or w/e and nerfs your first couple zones worth of content because it doesn't balance the field it just means more people have more gear which nerfs that first or second starting zones essentially

See what i'm saying it depends on what the point Blizzard wanted to make was with the gear.

Another case is, I may like quest leveling, but don't do it because the bonus and rewards of dungeon grinding far outweighs it.

[Selastan]

Aren't catch up mechanics kind of hypocritical on Blizzard's part? They felt like everyone should experience all content regardless of skill level or time to invest, yet make it so that content they JUST CREATED is irrelevant and hard to experience...

Hell, they should just go back to a BC style of progression. It makes content last longer. The only ones who are negatively effected by it are the world firster, Naxx 40 clearing 1% Blizz said they don't care about anyway.

[OneSent]

I believe there is a direct correlation between the amount of catch-up mechanics Blizzard adds to the game, and just how quickly people become bored playing the game. Blizzard essentially makes its own content irrelevant by trying to shove everyone into the latest patch or raid.

The issue with these catch-up mechanics is that they are simply unneeded in WoW as it currently exists. There's so much time between content nowadays (literally months and sometimes a year or longer) that people should have more than enough time to catch up.

What ends up happening however, is players who've been gone from the game for awhile come back; and instead of going through the natural process of level > dungeons > heroics > first raid > second raid > etc... they bypass all of that stuff, jump straight into the LFR version of the latest raid, clear it within a few hours, and they're done.

Sure, they could get more gear or work on their legendary ring, but why bother? They've seen the raid and the fights. Once that last boss is killed, regardless of what difficulty it was done on, the incentive to progress is drastically reduced because you skipped the entire process to get there.

[Stagga24]

I believe there is a direct correlation between the amount of catch-up mechanics Blizzard adds to the game, and just how quickly people become bored playing the game. Blizzard essentially makes its own content irrelevant by trying to shove everyone into the latest patch or raid.

The issue with these catch-up mechanics is that they are simply unneeded in WoW as it currently exists. There's so much time between content nowadays (literally months and sometimes a year or longer) that people should have more than enough time to catch up.

What ends up happening however, is players who've been gone from the game for awhile come back; and instead of going through the natural process of level > dungeons > heroics > first raid > second raid > etc... they bypass all of that stuff, jump straight into the LFR version of the latest raid, clear it within a few hours, and they're done.

Sure, they could get more gear or work on their legendary ring, but why bother? They've seen the raid and the fights. Once that last boss is killed, regardless of what difficulty it was done on, the incentive to progress is drastically reduced because you skipped the entire process to get there.

So taking your info and reading between the lines it would seem that LFR and catch up mechanics mean more people get bored more quickly not just the top guilds and stuff because if people had to take time to learn mechanics like in WOTLK or prior then it would feel like more content cuz you didn't faceroll through it? Then if less people are bitching because of the "less" content Blizzard wouldn't have such a bad time crunch/a happier fan base at the rate it takes to put out content.

[Tackhisis]

No one ever did progression in old raid tiers. Not everyone plays 24/7 every month of expansion, and they need to get where everybody else are at same speed those who played before did.

[Raone]

I believe there is a direct correlation between the amount of catch-up mechanics Blizzard adds to the game, and just how quickly people become bored playing the game. Blizzard essentially makes its own content irrelevant by trying to shove everyone into the latest patch or raid.

The issue with these catch-up mechanics is that they are simply unneeded in WoW as it currently exists. There's so much time between content nowadays (literally months and sometimes a year or longer) that people should have more than enough time to catch up.

What ends up happening however, is players who've been gone from the game for awhile come back; and instead of going through the natural process of level > dungeons > heroics > first raid > second raid > etc... they bypass all of that stuff, jump straight into the LFR version of the latest raid, clear it within a few hours, and they're done.

Sure, they could get more gear or work on their legendary ring, but why bother? They've seen the raid and the fights. Once that last boss is killed, regardless of what difficulty it was done on, the incentive to progress is drastically reduced because you skipped the entire process to get there.

No catch up mechanic means guild poaching will return. If you are in a guild doing HFC there would be only 2 options to getting new raiders. either A) Stealing them from a current HFC or BRF guild, or B) going back and adding an extra raid night to do BRF/Easier HFC to gear them up so they aren't complete scrubs. Most raiding guilds will choose option A) because it is soooo much easier and they did choose it a lot in TBC.

Also why would you want a raider who would "Jump into and LFR and after clearing it their done". Those are the type of raiders I DO NOT want in my raid and rather they stay in LFR. After they killed the bosses they wanted and got the gear they wanted their done. Honestly LFR is great, it keeps the bad raiders where they need to be, away from my raid group.

[corebit]

I believe there is a direct correlation between the amount of catch-up mechanics Blizzard adds to the game, and just how quickly people become bored playing the game. Blizzard essentially makes its own content irrelevant by trying to shove everyone into the latest patch or raid.

The issue with these catch-up mechanics is that they are simply unneeded in WoW as it currently exists. There's so much time between content nowadays (literally months and sometimes a year or longer) that people should have more than enough time to catch up.

What ends up happening however, is players who've been gone from the game for awhile come back; and instead of going through the natural process of level > dungeons > heroics > first raid > second raid > etc... they bypass all of that stuff, jump straight into the LFR version of the latest raid, clear it within a few hours, and they're done.

Sure, they could get more gear or work on their legendary ring, but why bother? They've seen the raid and the fights. Once that last boss is killed, regardless of what difficulty it was done on, the incentive to progress is drastically reduced because you skipped the entire process to get there.

You have a point, but on the other hand for a new or returning player the prospect of leveling or trying to queue up for raids that nobody does anymore is a very real problem.

If there were no boosts or catch-up mechanisms, a lot of them would be forever stuck in lower gear levels and no one would invite them, creating a vicious cycle. And they would quit very soon after that.

So what kind of idea would you propose to help these players other than "git gud."

[Hiricine]

The catch up mechanics are great when its stuff like finishing a legendary quest that a main finished. They're absolutely cancer when it comes to the general WOW playerbase.

Its spectacular having a meta where not only your characters but your account "powers up" as time goes on.

[Raone]

Guild poaching never left.

True, but it was FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR worse in TBC then it is now. Also there has been catch-up mechanics since TBC.

[Armourboy]

No one ever did progression in old raid tiers. Not everyone plays 24/7 every month of expansion, and they need to get where everybody else are at same speed those who played before did.

Prior to Wrath's tier 9 they certainly did. Once ToC came out everything changed. Players went from progressing on the content they had the gear for or their guild was doing to running 5 mans and getting the same gear that raiders had. In WoW prior to that the only way you skipped content was if someone drug you through, and often that still meant running you back through old raids. Otherwise you and whatever group you were with were still progressing through that old content. Wrath and the ToC patch changed everything.

That is also the point where the expansions started get churned through insanely quick. We've always had content gaps before that for the top end raiders, but for the general player base there never was much of a gap until Tier 10/ICC in Wrath.

[Armourboy]

You have a point, but on the other hand for a new or returning player the prospect of leveling or trying to queue up for raids that nobody does anymore is a very real problem.

If there were no boosts or catch-up mechanisms, a lot of them would be forever stuck in lower gear levels and no one would invite them, creating a vicious cycle. And they would quit very soon after that.

So what kind of idea would you propose to help these players other than "git gud."

I would argue you are completely wrong. The catch up mechanics is what created dead instances in the first place. Go back to TBC, heck even in Wrath when it started. Guilds and players were running everything from Kara to Sunwell on a weekly basis. At the end of Wrath you still had zero issues getting groups for Naxx, Ulduar and ToC fairly quickly. If you couldn't catch up it is because you weren't willing to put the effort in or didn't care enough. I know, I can't tell you how many people ran through our guild to step to Tier 5 guilds and then on to BT and Sunwell guilds.

Catch up mechanics did nothing but make content within it's own expansion obsolete and then Blizzard wants to sit around and bitch that players consume content too quickly.

[corebit]

Since when did Legendary items become this BiS piece of loot you expected to have slotted eventually. When you open that can of worms called 'convenience' every gripe you have is making everything as efficient and souless as possible, you lose complete sight of what is interesting or healthy for the sake of game.

Since forever? Or to be more precise since Wrath, when legendaries did not depend upon awful loot drop percentages.

[Armourboy]

Justice badges to get you out of heroics into the end of Kara counts as content skipping now? If you recollect people still do full clears anyway and were still running heroics too, I was one of them and I was S3 arena warrior first before I went back and cleared raids. In WotlK the ICC dungeons made all other tiers irrelevant and before that was the ToC dungeon. The poaching wasn't worse, it was just more visible because people stayed in tiers longer. Content longevity is such a flash in the pan the effect of poaching just doesn't sting long enough for people to notice.

The new system fixed nothing and made everything quite visibly worse as far as progression and content longevity is concerned.

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The worst part about this is how obvious it is, but its rarely discussed as if it's not an issue.

Lets be honest, most people are oblivious too it because it has always been this way for them.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the why. I understand that they want people to be able to come back and play with their friends. However, when you make entire sections of your latest expansion worthless by adding the next patch you certainly can't complain that content is consumed to quickly.

Frankly I think Blizzard see's it, it's the reason they've started talking about things being cyclical. Right now I think they are ok with it because people have continued to purchase the boxes which means they still make plenty of profit even if sub numbers are going down. The problem is at a certain point it is going to get bad enough that people are going to stop even bothering to come back.

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Since forever? Or to be more precise since Wrath, when legendaries did not depend upon awful loot drop percentages.

Even in Wrath they had awful loot drop percentages, the Ulduar legendary wasn't exactly quick to get and most guilds were still going back to finish one up when ToC hit.

[ComputerNerd]

Mostly because catch up mechanisms are there for alts or after the content has finished being relevant. And yes, I know the age old argument "all content is relevant to everyone", but content being difficult isn't what made it epic or amazing.

A lot (and I mean a LOT) of people who play this game play it for reasons that have nothing to do with stats on gear or catching up to other players. I myself played the game for a whole year with nothing but transmog as my desire to play. Couldn't care less about any other aspect of the game if it didn't involve me getting the look I desired.

So while yes, the idea that getting the entire game handed to them is bad, that's their choice on playing the game if they want to pursue it that way. There are plenty of content mediums in the game that still have that age old sense of dull repetitive gear progression. (raiding, after 10 years, still has the vast majority of loot coming from boss drops)

So I'd say, no. Catch up mechanics just like "casual" difficulty modes or other non-bleeding edge progression forms of gameplay are not purposefully self-defeating. They exist to cater to people that play the game for other reasons than you do.

There is a reason that some people choose to raid difficulties higher than LFR.
And that is because LFR is NOT the "entire game", it isn't the entire raiding experience by any means.
Anyone who insists so is either hugely ignorant or the more likely outright lying.
LFR has the attractive aspect of removing the traditional organisational requirement, which given the desire in the community to segregate with ever more measures and requirements is more important than ever.
Those complaining most about LFR are why it exists, and why it is needed more than ever.

[corebit]

I would argue you are completely wrong. The catch up mechanics is what created dead instances in the first place. Go back to TBC, heck even in Wrath when it started. Guilds and players were running everything from Kara to Sunwell on a weekly basis. At the end of Wrath you still had zero issues getting groups for Naxx, Ulduar and ToC fairly quickly. If you couldn't catch up it is because you weren't willing to put the effort in or didn't care enough. I know, I can't tell you how many people ran through our guild to step to Tier 5 guilds and then on to BT and Sunwell guilds.

Catch up mechanics did nothing but make content within it's own expansion obsolete and then Blizzard wants to sit around and bitch that players consume content too quickly.

Your examples are flawed. Guilds were gated by attunement in TBC, many of them ran obsolete content because they didn't have any other choice. By the time of Black Temple, there wasn't any progressed guild I knew that still ran Kara or Mag/Gruul. Then Zul'Aman and updated vendor gear was a much better source of loot for the more casual guilds.

Catch up mechanics happened as early as vanilla, the supposed golden era of WoW y'all like to point to. What was Zul'Gurub? Essentially a catch up mechanic for guilds who couldn't field 40-men. Same with AQ20 and later rep gear awarded for Silithus/Argent Dawn reps. For a casual guild, you could essentially skip MC and just concentrate on the Thorium bros rep for the tanks' resist gear for BWL for example.

Even in Wrath they had awful loot drop percentages, the Ulduar legendary wasn't exactly quick to get and most guilds were still going back to finish one up when ToC hit.

It was a hell lot better than having something like a 0.1% drop chance on a final boss, since shards for either Valanyr or Shadowmourne dropped much more regularly. You were essentially guaranteed to complete your legendary if you ran the instances regularly.

[Sierra85]

biggest problem right now is the ring takes too long to catch up, all the highmaul & brf stuff specifically.

[Armourboy]

Your examples are flawed. Guilds were gated by attunement in TBC, many of them ran obsolete content because they didn't have any other choice. By the time of Black Temple, there wasn't any progressed guild I knew that still ran Kara or Mag/Gruul. Then Zul'Aman and updated vendor gear was a much better source of loot for the more casual guilds.

Catch up mechanics happened as early as vanilla, the supposed golden era of WoW y'all like to point to. What was Zul'Gurub? Essentially a catch up mechanic for guilds who couldn't field 40-men. Same with AQ20 and later rep gear awarded for Silithus/Argent Dawn reps. For a casual guild, you could essentially skip MC and just concentrate on the Thorium bros rep for the tanks' resist gear for BWL.

No really you couldn't. I don't know of a single guild in BWL that didn't step foot into MC and Ony first. Individuals maybe, but entire raid groups? Nope. Even then AQ20 was part of the progression even for more advanced guilds, simply due to the skill books. ZG helped on a few slots here or there, but in reality didn't negate MC one bit. When I was prepping for BWL I was running MC, ZG, and doing alot of the outdoor stuff in Silithus. There were lots of groups that tried AQ20 as a catch up, most of them got stuffed after the first boss, or at least on Shattered Hand they did.

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biggest problem right now is the ring takes too long to catch up, all the highmaul & brf stuff specifically.

It really shouldn't be that bad if you use the shipyard. It took me somewhere around 3 weeks to get a fresh 100 up to the point of HFC.

[Tuesdays]

biggest problem right now is the ring takes too long to catch up, all the highmaul & brf stuff specifically.

Yeah right, that stuff was easy compared to the 3 tablets and the 33 whatevers. I probably wont even finish it, this is worse than the stupid ass cloak.. I hope to fucking god that this is the last treasure hunt LFR grind legendary they add, ffs make us do something challenging, not mind numbing.