The Legion table - Ion's additional response

[Kryos]

and hopefully that 3% of content will be ok for people to do without others feeling like they "have to" do it, not counting the class story to get the last part for the artifact.

My only question remains - if it's only 3% and if people who see that damn table and several day offline content and followers and everything just reminds them of the worst piece of content in WoD - the Garrison table - then WHY NOT CUT OUT THE 3% AND HAVE A FRESH START?

Why does Legion have this shit stain from the past on their sleeves it it's not vital for anything and only 3% of the content? I really prefer to only get 97% of the content instead of 100% if I never even have to click a requester with a timer on it to get gold, missions or anything else.

[HordeFanboy]

Tbh after all legion is going to be the last exp. This order hall garbage will kill wow and social aspect. Gj blizz

[Adramelch]

My only question remains - if it's only 3% and if people who see that damn table and several day offline content and followers and everything just reminds them of the worst piece of content in WoD - the Garrison table - then WHY NOT CUT OUT THE 3% AND HAVE A FRESH START?

Why does Legion have this shit stain from the past on their sleeves it it's not vital for anything and only 3% of the content? I really prefer to only get 97% of the content instead of 100% if I never even have to click a requester with a timer on it to get gold, missions or anything else.

Because presumably:

"But at the same time, there are people who do enjoy the mission minigame, and there are some positive elements, such as a bit of offline progression, and the fun of looking forward to a reward waiting for you when you get home and log in. Not all aspects of the game are intended to appeal to all players - that's part of the challenge of creating a single game that is played by such a diverse audience with different preferences and playstyles."

So they tried to get the best of both worlds. Whether that quote holds in fact true (and in my opinion it kinda does but I don't know to what extent) is something we can't know though. The problem in my mind is that even if a say 20% of players like that minigame (random number, don't start an argument on that, people), I can pretty confidently say that omitting the minigame altogether wouldn't make them stop playing, while the opposite is not true (ie people will stop the game because they don't like the minigame).

[Deleted]

You have to interact with your shipyard to unlock Tanaan but that takes all of five minutes.

Nope, you can go to tanaan as soon as you want, even at level 90.
Another thing is opening lion´s watch, and however it is named the horde base in tanaan.

[towelliee]

Doomsday all over with a Class order hall system that is barely 10% complete and testable. I've unlocked 40-50% of my Artifact without even touching it. All I need it for is a third relic slot and whatever vanity items it might bring along. And if it can take me on quests to see the resurrection of things like the 4 horseman ..yeah I'm down. As long as it doesn't become a primary source of gold I'm good.

[Kryos]

So they tried to get the best of both worlds. Whether that quote holds in fact true (and in my opinion it kinda does but I don't know to what extent) is something we can't know though. The problem in my mind is that even if a say 20% of players like that minigame (random number, don't start an argument on that, people), I can pretty confidently say that omitting the minigame altogether wouldn't make them stop playing, while the opposite is not true (ie people will stop the game because they don't like the minigame).

That's like saying - Some people like vanilla cake, others like pizza, some prefer BBQ. So let's create the best dish for everybody. Put a vanilla cake on a pizza cover it with BBQ sauce and put that on the grill.

[Lei]

Because presumably:

"But at the same time, there are people who do enjoy the mission minigame, and there are some positive elements, such as a bit of offline progression, and the fun of looking forward to a reward waiting for you when you get home and log in. Not all aspects of the game are intended to appeal to all players - that's part of the challenge of creating a single game that is played by such a diverse audience with different preferences and playstyles."

So they tried to get the best of both worlds. Whether that quote holds in fact true (and in my opinion it kinda does but I don't know to what extent) is something we can't know though. The problem in my mind is that even if a say 20% of players like that minigame (random number, don't start an argument on that, people), I can pretty confidently say that omitting the minigame altogether wouldn't make them stop playing, while the opposite is not true (ie people will stop the game because they don't like the minigame).

What does "offline progression" mean tho? What kind of offline progression can there be? Progression in reps? I don't care if they slap rep tokens to missions, that's fine. But hmm. Gear progression? Now that's risky.
What can be "Rewarding/progressive, but optional"? That is my main box of yogg-saron question. "Progressive" in an mmo is de facto the opposite of "optional" for me.
If it won't reward gold, mats, gear, etc, then what else can it reward? Only rep tokens?

[towelliee]

Don't forget that the third relic slot and equipping extra legionaries (NYI and set in stone) are only unlocked through resources which once you again you can not obtain in the actual hall you have to "leave" and kill and farm .



Thank you for pic from person in beta/alpah thread

[nazrakin]

That's like saying - Some people like vanilla cake, others like pizza, some prefer BBQ. So let's create the best dish for everybody. Put a vanilla cake on a pizza cover it with BBQ sauce and put that on the grill.

Except thats not really whats happening. Its more like they made Pizza, they made vanilla cake, and they made some BBQ... and the people who want pizza dont like cake and are having a conniption because they dared to offer a tiny slice of vanilla cake for dessert.

[Thage]

I think this is the most important bit. If you can unlock the third relic then theres no reason you have to engage with the mission table.

This and the cooldowns on class quest missions are my two big concerns--if they're concerned about progression clarity, why not make your order hall come with an associated reputation faction, and tie the class quests into that reputation a la the 5.1 and 5.2 reps? I felt like they had nailed down a smooth story progression with breakpoints through each rep tier, enough to give me a general idea of where I wanted to be for the next story quest by the time I hit Honored while still leaving wiggle room for it to sneak up on me and encourage me to stay logged in for longer than I'd planned that day.

As far as the third relic slot, so long as they stick to the plan that missions will not give order hall resources, then I'll be fine ignoring them outside the aforementioned class quest missions, assuming Blizzard does as Blizzard does and railroads at least one bad idea per expansion. But as soon as they get lazy, complacent, or cocky and try to slip back into recent habits, and the order halls begin to skew the reward structure, it's like the blue post said: it's something players who got sick of Garrison missions will notice and take umbrage with.

- - - Updated - - -

If you're talking about WOD I'm relatively certain you can do all the primary content without using your mission table once. You have to interact with your shipyard to unlock Tanaan but that takes all of five minutes.

Not sure about class halls yet but it sounds like they don't even unlock anything, just give you new shit to do every day if you want to.

Technically, you can just swim north from Shadowmoon Valley, get to Tanaan via the docks, and grab a neutral FP and start grinding treasures and rares, if for some odd reason you don't have a tier 3 garrison and shityard by the time you hit 100.

[Deleted]

Because presumably:

"But at the same time, there are people who do enjoy the mission minigame"

Yes i did because of the ton of gold meaning wow is/was B2P for me, and it will remain so the whole legion exp.
But remove the gold incentive from it, and i can assure you most people will do only the mandatory aspects of it and that is all.
BTW has blizzard confirm in any way that order halls missions will not reward gold as garrisons did?

[Smank]

Really my only problem I had with the system was that the artifact relic slot was locked behind it, but now that that isn't the case, I see no reason that people that like the system shouldn't be able to use it.

[Deleted]

Really my only problem I had with the system was that the artifact relic slot was locked behind it, but now that that isn't the case, I see no reason that people that like the system shouldn't be able to use it.

Yeah, it should be optional stuff.. not arbitrary "obligated" stuff.

[Adramelch]

What does "offline progression" mean tho? What kind of offline progression can there be? Progression in reps? I don't care if they slap rep tokens to missions, that's fine. But hmm. Gear progression? Now that's risky.
What can be "Rewarding/progressive, but optional"? That is my main box of yogg-saron question. "Progressive" in an mmo is de facto the opposite of "optional" for me.
If it won't reward gold, mats, gear, etc, then what else can it reward? Only rep tokens?

Story. Unfortunately it does look like it will also provide the odd piece of gear (even if you have to go kill a rare yourself).

[nazrakin]

This and the cooldowns on class quest missions are my two big concerns--if they're concerned about progression clarity, why not make your order hall come with an associated reputation faction, and tie the class quests into that reputation a la the 5.1 and 5.2 reps? I felt like they had nailed down a smooth story progression with breakpoints through each rep tier, enough to give me a general idea of where I wanted to be for the next story quest by the time I hit Honored while still leaving wiggle room for it to sneak up on me and encourage me to stay logged in for longer than I'd planned that day.

As far as the third relic slot, so long as they stick to the plan that missions will not give order hall resources, then I'll be fine ignoring them outside the aforementioned class quest missions, assuming Blizzard does as Blizzard does and railroads at least one bad idea per expansion. But as soon as they get lazy, complacent, or cocky and try to slip back into recent habits, and the order halls begin to skew the reward structure, it's like the blue post said: it's something players who got sick of Garrison missions will notice and take umbrage with.

It seems they really want to feed into the narrative of the player being a leader and coordinating in the war effort against the legion vs just being the guy that goes out and does all the grunt work, and they see the mission table as an effective way to reinforce that through the gameplay. With reputation you are usually proving yourself to another faction by helping them advance their own agenda. Keep in mind we still have not seen "adventure mode" which may include something that fills that niche.

Also, it does sound like the Class Order quest completion does reward order resources, so while the missions themselves dont get you any, the questing portion of it does. Based on what Watcher says it'll still be possible to unlock it regardless. It makes sense that people who are involved with the mission table will need access to more Order Resources than someone who chooses to ignore it though.

[quras]

SNIP...

As far as the third relic slot, so long as they stick to the plan that missions will not give order hall resources, then I'll be fine ignoring them outside the aforementioned class quest missions, assuming Blizzard does as Blizzard does and railroads at least one bad idea per expansion. But as soon as they get lazy, complacent, or cocky and try to slip back into recent habits, and the order halls begin to skew the reward structure, it's like the blue post said: it's something players who got sick of Garrison missions will notice and take umbrage with.
SNIP....

Another problem I have is I think that is exactly what blizzard will do in time.

At first it really will be optional content for a bit of side "something to do" Gamers will see it as nothing and purchase legion. Especially those that were on the fence saying if anything remotely comes into the game for mandatory garrisons, I'm out.

However, the very min blizzard needs to stretch out content because they have nothing else. Rewards would get added to it. Incentives added to it so it does become almost mandatory. blizzard would have your money by that point and wouldn't give 2 shits about the complaints then where now before legion can be released we'll get 2 blue posts making sure they tell gamers it's not the garrisons they hate.

I cannot say I trust them to not go back on their what they have been saying.

[Deleted]

Just a bunch more bullshit. Stop reassuring us that we want something we don't want. Jesus Christ! Fuck these garrison-esque missions and give us missions that we actually go do ourselves! Like with our own character! Like we have to mash the buttons and do the movements! Dropping a square into another square and pressing go is not fun! How hard is this that he has to keep making posts to justify this stupidity!

You think you dont but you do.

[Desparil]

Its awesome!

[IxilaFA]

And they were completely optional as far as I remember.

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This is basically my main point.

They definitely were not optional in the sense that if you wanted to keep up and get the best gear you had to do dailies. WOTLK was especially bad: remember the enchants you had to get from several different factions at revered?

The game has always been about grinding out gear. For some reason you don't seem to care about grinding and just want to get the same amount of gear as everyone else no matter what you do. Well hey people who play the Auction House all day should get mythic loot too, so let's start putting it on vendors for 800k gold a piece. After all they should be able to get gear the way they want to get gear.

[oplawlz]

I feel that players' response, while justified, has been premature.

This is the most wrong-headed approach you could possibly have. All you know about the game is what you see in alpha right now, and there is no reason to assume it is not what you are going to see on launch. Blizzard stating that they're still refining the system is exactly why alpha testers should be extremely vocal in what they do not want in it.

Nothing meaningful should come from the mission table - no story quests, no artifact upgrades, nothing. It should be treated like all optional content which bliz recognizes that many people do not find fun - lock silly things behind it like pets, mount, and toys, maybe xmog stuff. That way no one feels compelled to do it, but it's there as a thing for people who might like it or want foofoo rewards.