The State of WoW (my ranty opinion)

[FertsBlert]

Realism is absolutely not a priority. Blizzard established that when they sent you dragons in the MAIL. Literally no one gives a shit except for pseudo-intellectuals on MMO-champion.

Durability does not exist for realism; it exists to add a minor death penalty. It actually serves a function, unlike reagents which apparently only exist to take up bag space. It's not difficult to spam-right-click in a vendor menu on the item you need once a month.

RPGs do not rely on things like reagents. Providing a good gameplay experience while delivering a story which heavily incorporates your character (hence role-playing game) is what makes an RPG.

As I said before, WoW has a million severe issues which are driving players away, usually boiling down to developer arrogance. "Not being an RPG" is not one of them; it's not a real issue at all.

Not being an RPG is one of them and you're right RPGs do not rely on things like reagents, flavour skills, class only quests and small touches like that but they are part of the good gameplay to create an immersive living world. That is the key of an RPG that you feel like you are in a different living world, some will be inconvenient, some will take an excessive amount of time and some will be frankly annoying but they are part of giving you the feel that it is a different world you are visiting and interacting with other people\NPC's in. Being realistic has nothing to do with a world being immersive, being internally consistent with small touches that make you feel like it is somewhere else completely is.

WoW is not an RPG any longer, it is about as immersive as Diablo or even some first person shooters as an RPG. You are correct that WoW has other severe issues but in my opinion many of them are due to the drive from the devs (or the bean counters) to make WoW more widely accessible, to the detriment of the feeling that you are taking part in an epic adventure somewhere that is not the real world and to the detriment of good gameplay.

That is not the entire problem true, the lack of content is a whole other problem but that may be traceable to the bean counters as well, to people who only weigh up cost vs profit without looking at player satisfaction. That is fine until you cut it to the point where the players, your cash, leave in droves because you've damaged their loyalty enough that they will not accept the weak bullshit you're shovelling as content any longer. But that also ties back to the lack of immersion, players don't feel as connected, they feel less like they're leaving something that it was nice to be a part of behind.

[Deleted]

Literally no one gives a shit except for pseudo-intellectuals on MMO-champion.

How absolutely wonderful it must be that so many millions have you as their spokesperson. You clearly know every individual their opinion down to the letter, or so you claim.

[Bepples]

Not being an RPG is one of them and you're right RPGs do not rely on things like reagents, flavour skills, class only quests and small touches like that but they are part of the good gameplay to create an immersive living world.

I really only talked about reagents. I don't mind flavour skills (and I'm pretty sure Blizzard doesn't either) and I think there should be class quests again (this ties back into the lack of content problem; apparently class quests take too long to design). Reagents are utterly pointless, however. And it can hardly classify as "gameplay" either.

That is the key of an RPG that you feel like you are in a different living world, some will be inconvenient, some will take an excessive amount of time and some will be frankly annoying but they are part of giving you the feel that it is a different world you are visiting and interacting with other people\NPC's in. Being realistic has nothing to do with a world being immersive, being internally consistent with small touches that make you feel like it is somewhere else completely is.

Once again an argument that talks about nothing quantifiable at all, but rather the "feels".

I was talking about reagents specifically but it seems you are talking about a bunch of extra stuff as well. You mentioned flavour skills and class-only quests. There are plenty of flavour skills in t he game right now. In addition to that, you have a wealth of mounts, pets and toys that didn't exist in earlier WoW times. We HAVE lost class quests, but again that's in a different category; that is actual content that doesn't get made anymore.

WoW is not an RPG any longer, it is about as immersive as Diablo or even some first person shooters as an RPG. You are correct that WoW has other severe issues but in my opinion many of them are due to the drive from the devs (or the bean counters) to make WoW more widely accessible, to the detriment of the feeling that you are taking part in an epic adventure somewhere that is not the real world and to the detriment of good gameplay.

How exactly do they derive from accessibility? One of the biggest problems with the game right now, forcing people into 20 man raiding, is pretty much the exact opposite. RNG layers on loot has nothing to do with accessibility. Forcing Ashran on all PvPers has nothing to do with accessibility. The lack of content has nothing to do with accessibility. What major issue in the game, as in one that actually might be given as a primary reason for unsubscribing, can be attributed to accessibility?

That is not the entire problem true, the lack of content is a whole other problem but that may be traceable to the bean counters as well, to people who only weigh up cost vs profit without looking at player satisfaction. That is fine until you cut it to the point where the players, your cash, leave in droves because you've damaged their loyalty enough that they will not accept the weak bullshit you're shovelling as content any longer. But that also ties back to the lack of immersion, players don't feel as connected, they feel less like they're leaving something that it was nice to be a part of behind.

How does it tie back to immersion? No matter how immersive a game is, if there isn't enough stuff to do people will stop playing.

[FertsBlert]

I really only talked about reagents. I don't mind flavour skills (and I'm pretty sure Blizzard doesn't either) and I think there should be class quests again (this ties back into the lack of content problem; apparently class quests take too long to design). Reagents are utterly pointless, however. And it can hardly classify as "gameplay" either.

Once again an argument that talks about nothing quantifiable at all, but rather the "feels".

I was talking about reagents specifically but it seems you are talking about a bunch of extra stuff as well. You mentioned flavour skills and class-only quests. There are plenty of flavour skills in t he game right now. In addition to that, you have a wealth of mounts, pets and toys that didn't exist in earlier WoW times. We HAVE lost class quests, but again that's in a different category; that is actual content that doesn't get made anymore.

How exactly do they derive from accessibility? One of the biggest problems with the game right now, forcing people into 20 man raiding, is pretty much the exact opposite. RNG layers on loot has nothing to do with accessibility. Forcing Ashran on all PvPers has nothing to do with accessibility. The lack of content has nothing to do with accessibility. What major issue in the game, as in one that actually might be given as a primary reason for unsubscribing, can be attributed to accessibility?

How does it tie back to immersion? No matter how immersive a game is, if there isn't enough stuff to do people will stop playing.

You are talking about quantifiable when my post is all about the "feels" I think you may have missed my point, without players feeling like they are part of an immersive world that sucks them in and transports them elsewhere they won't weather a content drought you're absolutely correct. Without that immersion from small things that have no real impact on your gameplay, stupid shit like needing something to use X ability, flavor skills like sense undead on Paladins, sense invisibility on Warlocks, disarm traps, treasure sensing, stupid almost worthless little things like those, the world feels like any other Lobby driven action\adventure game and you won't retain players because the worlds are completely interchangeable. With that immersion though there is a feeling amongst players that they have an investment, their character is not "faceless, brown haired, man" but instead their character is Jimmy, a holy warrior of the light seeking out evil to smite.

Even non-roleplayers get something from being in a world that seems to live on it's own, people want to be part of something. The current LFD\R reduces Jimmy to faceless, brown-haired, paladin. Called Heals if he's Holy, Tank if he's Prot and ignored completely if he's Ret who sits around in a solo instance with no interaction with anyone else (other than talking shit in trade) waiting for a queue pop, might as well be sitting around in a queue in any other game, hell most of them if you're sitting in a queue you are around other players, so you can see someone else at least. There is very little left to grab the player and make them feel like it's an explicitly World of Warcraft game they are in so then the content drought hits so they might as well go elsewhere since it's the same shit everywhere.

The 20 man raiders are one of the higher retention groups from what I've seen, they are still selling runs through content they've beaten into a bloody pulp to get themselves set for Legion. It's the more casual players who've all buggered off and 20 man raiding isn't what buggered them off sure some may have made the transfer but the majority are quite happy to have "beaten the game" by taking Archi down on something other than LFR but just maybe if there were greater "feels", greater immersion in a world they'd go find something else to do to protect their investment in the world rather than unsubbing and queuing in a different game as faceless, brown-haired, man. Primary reason they could give right there "beaten the game".

You seem to think that quantifiable is all that matters, that the feels don't mean a thing, you might as well BE one of the bean counters who are likely behind why WoW is in the state it's in. The dislike for limited content seems to indicate that "why should I not be able to raid the highest level without putting in the effort to create or find a group capable of it?

It doesn't make logical sense that someone would stay because of a feeling even when there is bugger-all to do but people sure as shit aren't logical or often even rational in most cases.

[Nekoyou]

So, equipping gear at lvl 1 and holding them up to lvl 90 is progression? How come?

Do you remember how you felt the 1st time you equipped a rare item? Personally, I was celebrating!

Progression exists, but in a less degree than previous expansions. And it's more about end game progression rather on overall progression.

Can you do that with your first character? Or without investing a decent amount of time making gold so that you can purchase said gear that can last you until 60 which you then need to upgrade to 90 which you then need to upgrade to 100. I haven't even done all of mine yet. The first character someone makes goes through the same progression you went through your first time. Heirloom gear was for those of us who are on our second or third characters' and took the time to get the gear.

[Drpizka]

Can you do that with your first character? Or without investing a decent amount of time making gold so that you can purchase said gear that can last you until 60 which you then need to upgrade to 90 which you then need to upgrade to 100. I haven't even done all of mine yet. The first character someone makes goes through the same progression you went through your first time. Heirloom gear was for those of us who are on our second or third characters' and took the time to get the gear.

Gold? You can buy looms with tokens from darkmoon faire, you don't neeed to spend gold ... Not to mention raid / dungeon looms..

Even a new player can grind fast, just by spamming dungeons. Leveling is way too fast nowadays. But that's my opinion only

[Nekoyou]

Nobody is forcing anything... but why not use something you have?
Who forces you to drive a car when you could just use a bike?

If you have the option between easy and hard, humans tend to choose easy.

and your point is what? that because people choose to take the easy path that it should not exist for anyone? I'm sorry that is not the correct way to look at things. If you want to get a job near your house so you can walk because that is what you want to do you are welcome to do doing that. However, it is not okay for you to say that everyone else should have to walk as well because you like to. If everyone else wants to use a car the ability for them to do so should be there. Using the easily available path and then complaining about just sounds ridiculous.

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A lot of people play easy mode, most people play LFR and not Mythic.

yeah SOME people like challenge, but MOST people only rise to the challenge if they have to.
Let me give you an example:
You want to go see your parents, they live on top a really high mountain.
There are two ways:
- One steep and hard so climb.
- One that is quite flat.
You will ALWAYS choose the second path.

Now lets add time as a factor.
The easy path takes 3 times as long as the hard path... now you may consider taking the hard path over the easy one, right?

That's like saying people would only use stairs instead of an escalator if the escalator took 3 times as long. That is inaccurate, I'm sorry if you notice a lot of people are willing to take the stairs even though it is harder and takes longer instead of the escalator which is faster and more convenient. If you want to add time management into this equation then using your example, it would go something like this. People who have time, and wish to take the steep and hard to climb path will do so for better reward. While as people who do not wish to invest said time will be willing to spend less time and will take the quite flat path. Same is true even for my example. You can take the stairs if you have the time and are willing to invest your time to ensure you are healthier and live better or if you have less time or are less willing to then you may take the escalator where you can walk if you choose to but you will not be able to as much for your body or your overall health. Even though more factors and variables can be involved in this I'm just keeping it simple for now.

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I do not complain about how the game will look in Legion.

I complain about how the game looks now. And it is not an MMO-RPG. It is an online action/adventure game. And one of the easiest to be honest

What's the difference between an action/adventure game and having action and adventure in a role playing game?

[Drpizka]

What's the difference between an action/adventure game and having action and adventure in a role playing game?

None really, but the RPG feeling has to exist. Which in the current state of WoW does not apply

[Nekoyou]

100% agree with OP. Another thing that killed a lot of player interaction is the removal of group quests and the old dungeon system. There used to be quests that required you to actually find other people and create a group to complete out in the world, nowadays every single quest can be solo'ed without any difficulty at all. Sure the old dungeon system was a pain at times when you had to walk all the way to the entrance and spend sometimes hours just forming the group, but it promoted you interacting with other people instead of this mini-game dungeons have become now where you queue up, don't talk, and clear everything with ease since they made the game so much easier at lower levels. The RPG aspect of WoW has slowly died over the years because apparently people are to stupid and don't have any time to invest in learning or working for anything in-game anymore... People were just as lazy and had just as little time in Vanilla -> Wrath as they do now, I wonder why so many people kept playing anyway.....

Actually the people that did not have time stop playing and the people did continued. Same thing that is happening now. Except we are the ones without time and instead of the game being lost to us blizzard decided to continue making the game in a manner that would allow us the option to continue playing if we wanted.

Also please explain what you thought was exciting and fun about waiting for hours to try and find a group and then waiting again for hours when someone decided to leave or had to leave? It was not fun it was annoying and made the game feel uninteresting unless you had people to play with. Basically it was using the survivor of the fittest mentality back then. Now it uses the everyone can play without that damn hassle mentality even if you have no friends. Now you get to choose to make new friends. I very much this mentality much more. My friends play sometimes and sometimes they don't I make new friends right in LFR.

[Zenjie]

Cross realm zones are another big piece of the problem.

It used to be that when you were out questing in say Arathi Highlands, you would run into that UD Warrior and you'd help them with a quest, or you'd get into a WPvP battle with them fighting over a quest objective. And then the amazing thing was, two days later when you were in the Plaguelands you would see that same player! And you'd say "ok I'm not losing to him this time, time to get my payback" or you'd /wave and help them out again.

And more than just running into a single player more than once, you'd also run into players from their guild and you'd have an idea what to expect. "Wow, these guys in <Bloodsworn> are ruthless gankers and they have the best raid gear, I'd better not let him see me" or "hey, that's the third person from <Elite Guard> that's helped me this week, I should ask if they are recruiting".

On a PvP realm at least, the world felt hostile and dangerous... and that made it exciting! And it wasn't just the danger of dying, it was the fact that your reputation was on the line, your guild's pride was on the line, etc.

The LFG tool is another problem. I agree that it's wonderfully convenient. But I still think you should have to physically travel to your Mauradon run. There was more of an investment in the group. People wouldn't just bail after 1 wipe, they'd work together and figure out a way to succeed and it felt rewarding. And maybe the priest got ganked on the way there, so you and the hunter would run outside and help her make it to the dungeon safely. And you'd complete the whole dungeon together, even though it was a longer experience, because again everyone was invested in the group.

Personally, I like a lot of the convenient changes that have been made to modern WoW. But I still think there could be a balance where we have some of that convenience and those common sense QoL improvements without losing the elements that made Azeroth feel like an expansive place with a thriving community that you could be a part of.

Finally, let me say a few words about class design. It's so heartbreaking to me how fundamental pieces of the rogue class are being cut up and divided among the different specs for the sake of "differentiating the class fantasy". My rogue has been making and using poisons for 11 years, and now suddenly she is just going to forget this skill? She has been using Gouge and Garrote for 11 years, and now she is just going to forget how? And she's going to suddenly have access to all this shadow magic? Combat rogue is a pirate now? And yet none of the 3 rogue specs on Legion Alpha feels like a complete rogue. Furthermore the reduction in the number of buttons, and more importantly the reduction in how interesting and interactive those remaining buttons are, is an extreme disappointment. Subtlety is supposed to be the stealth oriented spec, yet they've removed so many of the buttons we use in stealth that Shadow Dance won't even have it's own stealth action bar anymore, because "there aren't enough buttons to justify it". Well, whose fault is that? We didn't ask for this. It feels like Blizzard is determined to completely remake all 3 rogue specs in a way that even further reduces the complexity and the finesse and the opportunity for creative or inventive gameplay, and they're going to do so in such a way that none of them feels like a proper rogue and a lot of the people who have played this class over the years are going to be disappointed.

Legion looks promising to me in many ways, but the insane level of dumbing-down on the class design just 100% ruins it for me. I understand that PvE encounters are going to have more complicated mechanics, but I'm primarily a PvP oriented player, and our "encounter mechanics" are our class toolkits and our enemies class toolkits! Even with the PvP talent trees, and even focusing on active abilities over passives, there are not only less buttons to push than previous versions of the game, but those buttons are less interesting when you push them.

To me, for Legion to really be a great expansion, we'd need a) partial rollback of some of the convenience changes that have come at the cost of that RPG feeling, and b) the return of some complexity to our classes toolkits and the return of some buttons which are situational or require a lot of thought and aren't 100% obvious and intuitive to every single player.

This 1000000x

[Drpizka]

Actually the people that did not have time stop playing and the people did continued. Same thing that is happening now. Except we are the ones without time and instead of the game being lost to us blizzard decided to continue making the game in a manner that would allow us the option to continue playing if we wanted.

Also please explain what you thought was exciting and fun about waiting for hours to try and find a group and then waiting again for hours when someone decided to leave or had to leave? It was not fun it was annoying and made the game feel uninteresting unless you had people to play with. Basically it was using the survivor of the fittest mentality back then. Now it uses the everyone can play without that damn hassle mentality even if you have no friends. Now you get to choose to make new friends. I very much this mentality much more. My friends play sometimes and sometimes they don't I make new friends right in LFR.

But that's the purpose of a MMORPG mate. If you don't want to face these situations, play only with guildmates.

[Nekoyou]

Gold? You can buy looms with tokens from darkmoon faire, you don't neeed to spend gold ... Not to mention raid / dungeon looms..

Even a new player can grind fast, just by spamming dungeons. Leveling is way too fast nowadays. But that's my opinion only

grind what super fast? I don't even do darkmoon faire tokens. I don't even go the faire all that often let alone sit grinding this thing once every month. My point is it still requires effort and I pretty sure you can only get the pvp looms from the darkmoon faire.

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But that's the purpose of a MMORPG mate. If you don't want to face these situations, play only with guildmates.

No friend it is not. RPG is an adventure you go on. Sometimes with friends and sometimes alone. Either way you make friends and enjoy the adventure or you can just chill at home. But never should you play a game that has wonder and adventure think...well now i have sit here for hours looking for people to join me on this adventure. While that may be one way to do things that was a very old and antiquated way of doing things. There is no reason why there cannot exist a system where you can find people who wish to do the same things as you and group with them to go on your adventure.

[Drpizka]

grind what super fast? I don't even do darkmoon faire tokens. I don't even go the faire all that often let alone sit grinding this thing once every month. My point is it still requires effort and I pretty sure you can only get the pvp looms from the darkmoon faire.

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No friend it is not. RPG is an adventure you go on. Sometimes with friends and sometimes alone. Either way you make friends and enjoy the adventure or you can just chill at home. But never should you play a game that has wonder and adventure think...well now i have sit here for hours looking for people to join me on this adventure. While that may be one way to do things that was a very old and antiquated way of doing things. There is no reason why there cannot exist a system where you can find people who wish to do the same things as you and group with them to go on your adventure.

You do so, but others who do not wish to spend gold can get their looms with tokens

My point is, that the effort required in older expansions was greater, the challenges were greater too, and the rewards actually meant something

You define RPG well, but this is supposed to be a MMO-RPG you need to cooperate with others if you want to succeed

[tithian]

They key point is as the expacs progressed, the devs removed the element of "bad choice", which is essential in game design.

Here's an anecdote from about 7-8 years ago. I was involved in Magic the Gathering at the time, and a new expansion came out and one particularly bad card stood out. I can't remember its name, but you essentially paid mana to discard your hand. To top it off, it was a Rare card (in Hearthstone analogies it would be legendary) and people were baffled: "what's the point of this card? It's horrible! Are we missing something?", to which the devs replied "It is our policy to routinely design bad and underperforming cards, because how else would you appreciate the good ones?".

This is where we're at now. The QoL improvements removed all "bad" elements, and now nothing stands out as "exceptional". Everything is simply mediocre.

[Nekoyou]

They key point is as the expacs progressed, the devs removed the element of "bad choice", which is essential in game design.

Here's an anecdote from about 7-8 years ago. I was involved in Magic the Gathering at the time, and a new expansion came out and one particularly bad card stood out. I can't remember its name, but you essentially paid mana to discard your hand. To top it off, it was a Rare card (in Hearthstone analogies it would be legendary) and people were baffled: "what's the point of this card? It's horrible! Are we missing something?", to which the devs replied "It is our policy to routinely design bad and underperforming cards, because how else would you appreciate the good ones?".

This is where we're at now. The QoL improvements removed all "bad" elements, and now nothing stands out as "exceptional". Everything is simply mediocre.

I fail to see how bad choices were removed? Talents need to be changed on a per boss basis...if you do not do this you will not perform well. Tanks need to use their talents correctly or you will not pull packs correctly thus your group will fail. Try legion I played a DH did exceptionally bad at not knowing how to pull properly. It was kind of forgiving but people still died. I'm an old school tank people dying even in a dungeon is mark down on tanking ability. I quickly went after that failed run and looked up what information I could on how to be a better DH tank...

Nothing about the game has lost it's difficulty. Have you tried Mythic dungeons...you have to actually know what those boss abilities or you will not be able to counter it properly and thus wipe. And continue to do so until you decide to follow mechanics.

Here is another one. They added valor back to the game. I recently, finally, finished my legendary ring collection and got it. I had 1250 valor. I had the choice to either upgrade my ring for +3 stat increase or i could upgrade 5 items i had on once each for +5 stats on each of them. Which do you think was a better option? 5 items upgraded once for +5 stats or my legendary ring for +3 stat increase?

If you are looking for bad choices they are still there...and people still make them all over the place. Even I do at times. And then you have to learn.

[Drpizka]

I fail to see how bad choices were removed? Talents need to be changed on a per boss basis...if you do not do this you will not perform well. Tanks need to use their talents correctly or you will not pull packs correctly thus your group will fail. Try legion I played a DH did exceptionally bad at not knowing how to pull properly. It was kind of forgiving but people still died. I'm an old school tank people dying even in a dungeon is mark down on tanking ability. I quickly went after that failed run and looked up what information I could on how to be a better DH tank...

Nothing about the game has lost it's difficulty. Have you tried Mythic dungeons...you have to actually know what those boss abilities or you will not be able to counter it properly and thus wipe. And continue to do so until you decide to follow mechanics.

Here is another one. They added valor back to the game. I recently, finally, finished my legendary ring collection and got it. I had 1250 valor. I had the choice to either upgrade my ring for +3 stat increase or i could upgrade 5 items i had on once each for +5 stats on each of them. Which do you think was a better option? 5 items upgraded once for +5 stats or my legendary ring for +3 stat increase?

If you are looking for bad choices they are still there...and people still make them all over the place. Even I do at times. And then you have to learn.

Ever thought of having a tank with "x" talents, and another with "y" ? Having a tank for every raid is just so silly. Also you avoid paying gold to retrain talents

[Nekoyou]

You do so, but others who do not wish to spend gold can get their looms with tokens

My point is, that the effort required in older expansions was greater, the challenges were greater too, and the rewards actually meant something

You define RPG well, but this is supposed to be a MMO-RPG you need to cooperate with others if you want to succeed

And you do get others to succeed. It's just not always miserable and annoying because we are actually playing a game not in the 1500's looking for other adventures in a small town. In the game you are looking for adventures in a small town but you are using the alien technology of lfg. Which can transport you to a dungeon with 4 other people who actually want to do it. And if you fail because the group is bad or there is something about the group is bad making changes is easier without the enormous time lost that was previously there. I understand that not being able to do something because you can not get a competent group or find enough people to do it is part of the fantasy for some but for me it is not. Not being able to do mythic raiding because I'm not putting the effort forth to find a group is fine. Not being able to do a dungeon because I can not find enough people is bad. That's why I was happy when we no longer had to stick to our server.

Been playing this game for a long time. Switched servers with my friends a lot too. Sometimes the server were high pop and sometimes they were not. It's never a fun experience to be on an adventure you cannot complete simply from a lack of people. While this is an rpg it is also a video game. It is suppose to be fun. With victories and failures alike. But what it is not suppose to be is a grueling endless and mindless waiting game where you just sit around chatting people up hoping to find someone to do a dungeon with. And then hoping they feel dedicated enough to not leave after they get what they want or if the group is not doing so well. Or that they don't leave for a legitimate RL emergency. People tend to forget how annoying those experiences were. And not annoying in a fun rpg manner but annoying in a fashion that it made you not want to play anymore.

And annoying but fun rpg aspect I would say was the class quest. I really was quite happy when I got my weapon for my warrior quest and berserker stance. I was equally unimpressed when I did it for the second time on another character on a different server. But it was a matter of pride when I did it the first time. I am sad that they removed class quests from the game but I am quite happy with how the legendary quests are coming. And exceptionally glad they removed pvp from the legendary quests although it did make me do pvp again. Which I haven't done properly since before the latter existed. Although I am looking forward to it in legion.

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Ever thought of having a tank with "x" talents, and another with "y" ? Having a tank for every raid is just so silly. Also you avoid paying gold to retrain talents

well the problem with that is that each tank needs to have those talents to perform optimally. Do they both actually need to do it? no not really. If you have enough skill to cover the loss you can technically get away with different talents. For instance bloodbath is currently great for single target bosses but sometimes I forget to change it and use blade storm or whatever it is called lol...it is a lose of dps but i get bored and want to see if my healers can keep me alive while I stand in front of the boss spinning...

Also paying gold for things is the cost of doing business in this game. Especially if you want to be a raider. Be thankful that they decided to reduce all of our repair costs. Tank repairs used to cost way more then anyone else because we got hit the most. While that is in keeping with the fantasy it was not doing well for our little manly purses. But that is where garrisons come in. Even though repair costs are high at this point or even the constant changing that is necessary on a per boss basis. The garrison's true purpose comes to light. Getting the correct followers and aligning their abilities so that they can get you gold! to fund these kinds of things. The epics are negligible from there unless you raid mythic or heroic raids often enough to get that kind of loot from there but even then if you raid those places with an actual guild you don't really need that loot anyway. Sometimes it is helpful because you get a piece you have yet to see while raiding but other then that it's pretty useless.

[tithian]

I fail to see how bad choices were removed? Talents need to be changed on a per boss basis...if you do not do this you will not perform well. Tanks need to use their talents correctly or you will not pull packs correctly thus your group will fail. Try legion I played a DH did exceptionally bad at not knowing how to pull properly. It was kind of forgiving but people still died. I'm an old school tank people dying even in a dungeon is mark down on tanking ability. I quickly went after that failed run and looked up what information I could on how to be a better DH tank...

Nothing about the game has lost it's difficulty. Have you tried Mythic dungeons...you have to actually know what those boss abilities or you will not be able to counter it properly and thus wipe. And continue to do so until you decide to follow mechanics.

Here is another one. They added valor back to the game. I recently, finally, finished my legendary ring collection and got it. I had 1250 valor. I had the choice to either upgrade my ring for +3 stat increase or i could upgrade 5 items i had on once each for +5 stats on each of them. Which do you think was a better option? 5 items upgraded once for +5 stats or my legendary ring for +3 stat increase?

If you are looking for bad choices they are still there...and people still make them all over the place. Even I do at times. And then you have to learn.

I think we have a different definition of bad, which kinda reinforces my opinion on the matter. Choosing one talent over the other, or upgrading item X over item Y first, all these are slightly suboptimal, but in no means bad. What this says is that the game dumped all the bad choices altogether and made them "good" or at worst, "situational". Losing 5% of your power over choices that are easily reversed is not by any means what you'd consider bad in, say, vanilla or TBC.

You mentioned a tanking example. By failing at tanking you aren't exactly making any choices, good or bad. It's simply the process of learning to play the class and learning to pull the packs. You are still, at the end of the day going about it in the one set way that the developers intended. Zero choice involved, besides speccing into a leap or a smash (examples pulled out of my ass) according to personal preference and playstyle. And then you go on about difficulty, which has nothing to do with what I talked about. You can still have a very difficult but very homogenized game mode; it's just that the difficulty stems from the environment (i.e. overtuned content) or the players' lack of skill (maybe the healer simply sucks). Dark Souls would still be freakin hard (or maybe even harder) if your character had set skills and abilities from the beginning, but it would also be a lot blander.

Here's an example to consider: in vanilla we had spell ranks, which had different mana costs and according effects. Flash Heal Rank 3 healed for less than Rank 5, but had half the cost. A healer had to choose on which to choose, depending on the target, his cooldowns and how much mana he could afford to use. Removing spell ranks was amove that was celebrated by part of the playerbase at the time, but a lot of people expressed their concerns that a lot of the strategic element of healing would be lost. And they were kinda right.

[FertsBlert]

They key point is as the expacs progressed, the devs removed the element of "bad choice", which is essential in game design.

Here's an anecdote from about 7-8 years ago. I was involved in Magic the Gathering at the time, and a new expansion came out and one particularly bad card stood out. I can't remember its name, but you essentially paid mana to discard your hand. To top it off, it was a Rare card (in Hearthstone analogies it would be legendary) and people were baffled: "what's the point of this card? It's horrible! Are we missing something?", to which the devs replied "It is our policy to routinely design bad and underperforming cards, because how else would you appreciate the good ones?".

This is where we're at now. The QoL improvements removed all "bad" elements, and now nothing stands out as "exceptional". Everything is simply mediocre.

And then people find the broken combo using that card and beat the hell out of everybody......dredge anyone?

Ok that doesn't quite work for WoW but still it is part of what makes a game taking what the developers have given and playing it your way, whether that is the best way or not is beside the point and that is one place where WoW is failing. There are no choices really, you must play the way you are being told to. The character toolkits are being pared down to their absolute minimum you can't pull off something awesome through good play like farming equal level elites solo as a rogue in Vanilla through good use of stunlocking. That type of enjoyment doesn't seem to be a part of the dev's vision for WoW the pruning is removing choices, removing possibilities.

[tithian]

And then people find the broken combo using that card and beat the hell out of everybody......dredge anyone?

Ok that doesn't quite work for WoW but still it is part of what makes a game taking what the developers have given and playing it your way, whether that is the best way or not is beside the point and that is one place where WoW is failing. There are no choices really, you must play the way you are being told to. The character toolkits are being pared down to their absolute minimum you can't pull off something awesome through good play like farming equal level elites solo as a rogue in Vanilla through good use of stunlocking. That type of enjoyment doesn't seem to be a part of the dev's vision for WoW the pruning is removing choices, removing possibilities.

This is another aspect, yes. In the past the devs allowed for wild variance between specs, classes, or even players playing the same spec. In vanilla warlocks were mostly considered fodder in PvP... until skilled players came along that took advantage of 100% of the tollkit and then demolished people in 1v3s. In other cases entire classes were hard countered by one spec, but it was also an opportynity for the top players of that class to shine by beating the competition against the odds. I recall feral druids being considered shit during Molten Core, but then again we had one in our raid, taking pride in standing toe to toe with our other melee DPS.