Russian attack aircraft just flew within 30 feet of a U.S. Navy ship

[Hound Archon]

But reality did happen and Russia got blown out of the sky by a Turkey, Its quite the comedy in several ways and sorta showed that tough guy putin is nothing but a bluff. Poor Russophiles were abandoned by their great hero.

It sorta showed that NATO members can open fire on Russian airplanes without fear of retaliation because NATO, that's all.

[Kellhound]

Get your brain screwed on right, if you shoot in "international waters" just off the coast of Russia, there is no way to escape retaliation that close to Russia, where they shouldn't be near in the first place. Officers are smarter than you armchair warriors.

From a historical view, it is the Russians that should not be there on occupied German soil. The ship was operating in a body of water that is surrounded by NATO or NATO friendly countries.

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I think you don't realize what happened here. You guys send a ship right outside Russian shores. Do you understand now?
And let me ask you this,

Lets say you provoke them again, and you send once more a destroyer a few miles outside their shores, and they repeat what they did (in order to tell you basically gtfo, you're too close) and you shoot down their plane. And then they sink the destroyer which most probably be targeted by shiton of missiles / torpedoes as you do that, what then?

What are you going to say? Guys we are going into a thermonuclear war with the Russians cause we bullied them for too long and they fought back? Good luck cause if you are that stupid, you are going to need it.

The ship was tens of miles outside Russia's tiny sliver of waters (that shouldn't even be Russian) near the Polish naval base it had departed from conducting training operations with Poland. It is a location that has NATO countries on both sides. Sending planes out to recon is one thing, doing so in a reckless unprofessional manner is another.

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The jet that shot had left the scene, if it hadn't, it would have been blown out of the sky to prevent it from doing some other attack.

On the other hand, it would take a looong time for a US ship just off the coast of Russia to get safely away, wouldn't get far with cruise missiles n navy homing in on it.

The destroyer would be back at port before the Russian Navy could react, the Russian Air Force would be hard pressed to react fast enough to deploy more than a few attack aircraft, which leaves the shore based anti-ship missiles, which would still have a delay before given command to fire after receiving the location of the ship.

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That's because they know Russia only does it because USA does it.
Russia stopped doing that when the cold war ended, for a decade after there were no such stuff, yet during that entire time USA never stopped doing it.

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LOOOL faster than cruise missiles? Ha ha ha

Russia stopped because their military fell apart and had a hard time getting anything in the air or out to sea.....

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No it was 70km from their naval base, thats 44 miles and w/t taking in cosideration the 12 miles that the borders expand into the sea.

So 30 miles outside Russian territory that is ~50 miles wide at its widest and hemmed in by Polish and Lithuanian territorial water... This isnt St Petersburg we are talking about.

[Hound Archon]

That's the Joke

You underhanded agressors, you. Shame on the sinner! Shame! Shame!

[Ulmita]

The ship was tens of miles outside Russia's tiny sliver of waters (that shouldn't even be Russian) near the Polish naval base it had departed from conducting training operations with Poland. It is a location that has NATO countries on both sides. Sending planes out to recon is one thing, doing so in a reckless unprofessional manner is another.

Hey Kell, America belonged to native Americans in the same logic. But hell, Russia has 100000 more reasons to call that place theirs after that war.

The destroyer would be back at port before the Russian Navy could react, the Russian Air Force would be hard pressed to react fast enough to deploy more than a few attack aircraft, which leaves the shore based anti-ship missiles, which would still have a delay before given command to fire after receiving the location of the ship.

Don't forget about the subs. If you actually trying to convince anyone here that cook would survive, i don't know what to say...

So 30 miles outside Russian territory that is ~50 miles wide at its widest and hemmed in by Polish and Lithuanian territorial water... This isnt St Petersburg we are talking about.

Still, 30 miles is a bit too close. Especially for a platform like cook.

[Deleted]

A long read but well worth the time.

Last week, two Russian SU-24 fighter planes buzzed a US Navy destroyer over the Baltic Sea. One of the planes flew within 30 feet of the ship, according to US officials. Secretary of State John Kerry protested, saying that the Russians were endangering the destroyer. The media in the West concluded that the Russians were simulating an attack on the destroyer. The Russians made no official statement, though a spokesperson for the Russian Defense Ministry commented to Interfax that Russia had done nothing that violated international laws or that endangered the destroyer or its crew. He expressed surprise that the Americans felt the need to be so “touchy”—and he was clearly pleased at the American response. Unofficially, the Russians dramatically inflated their account of what they did—an embellishment in many ways far more interesting than buzzing the destroyer.

To begin to understand this event, it is important to remember that such behavior was common during the Cold War and occurs with some regularity now as well. It involves not only Russia and the United States but also China and some countries allied with the US, including Britain and Japan. In November, the Turks shot down a Russian plane intruding on Turkish air space.

It is not as uncommon to see aircraft intercepting each other in international waters. There is a limited military purpose for this. Near-threatening behavior elicits responses. Those responses tell the other side about how ships and planes might maneuver in a real attack, how quickly events are communicated to higher echelons, frequencies used by fire-control systems, and so on. The target must assume that the approach is hostile and begin responding, and that response can provide useful data. But the primary purpose of such a maneuver is simply to show that you are willing to do it, to signal unhappiness, and to impress the public by projecting a sense of power.

The media’s claim that the Russians were simulating a real attack on the destroyer is not credible. An attacking aircraft does not swoop down on a ship these days. It launches anti-ship missiles from a position that it hopes is outside the range of the destroyer’s anti-aircraft systems.

A destroyer would pick up an attacker with search radar at least 100 miles out. As it approached to fire its missiles, fire-control radar would lock on the aircraft, and if an anti-ship missile were fired, the destroyer would launch Standard surface-to-air missiles at the plane. The ship and aircraft would both activate electronic warfare systems to confuse the opponent’s radar and incoming missiles. On the destroyer, fire-control radar would lock onto the incoming missiles and attempt to destroy them with missiles fired from the ship. If that failed, the ship would open intense fire on the incoming missiles with a Phalanx cannon. The attacker’s strategy would be to saturate the destroyer with missiles to overwhelm the ship’s defense systems, so multiple aircraft would be used in the attack. Finally, since the destroyer would likely be operating with a carrier battle group, when the Russian fighters were still hundreds of miles out, F-18s would be scrambling to intercept.

This is a very simple description of air-sea combat. Visual contact between ship and plane would be unlikely. A Russian aircraft coming in low and slow over an American destroyer would be blown into small pieces by the time any pictures were taken. It is not that the destroyer can’t be sunk by an aircraft, or that an aircraft would always lose in such an encounter. The crux of the matter is that this is not how an attack would be carried out. That is why the risk involved in such hostile actions is low. In reality, neither the aircraft nor the destroyer interpreted what was happening as hostile. The Russians were simply trying to jerk the Americans’ chain.

The US was operating near Russian waters, and the Russians decided to show their displeasure (not that the US cared). The US tried to make the event appear as a near disaster (not that the Russians cared). The level of outrage expressed by the Americans was a bit greater than usual, given that the US Secretary of State decided to personally protest and indicated that the Russian planes risked being shot down (a possibility, yes, but an unlikely one). The encounter grew a bit heated but was still conducted within normal bounds on both sides. More intriguing was where Russian information operations (also known as psychological warfare, disinformation, propaganda, or lies) took the story.

The Russians need to convince their public that Russia is returning to “great power” status. President Vladimir Putin is embroiled in significant political challenges—from Ukraine to the price of oil and its effect on the economy. He wants to be seen as having rebuilt Russia’s military to make it the equal of the United States military. This was one of the points of Russia’s intervention in Syria, and it is also one of the reasons for this incident involving the US destroyer.

The Russians were delighted to see the event portrayed as a simulated attack on an American destroyer, and Kerry’s outraged reaction was also valuable to the Russians. Both made the event appear much more significant than it was and therefore made Russia appear much more significant than it is. But lots of people knew better than to be impressed, and eventually, this view supplanted overblown concerns. The Russians then decided to add another dimension to their version of the story. Shortly after the incident, stories started appearing on the Internet claiming that the Russian attack aircraft carried new electronic warfare equipment that had crippled the destroyer’s combat systems. If that story took hold, Russian ability to cripple the defense systems of a US warship would turn into a major story, marking a turning point in naval warfare.

This story isn’t true for two reasons. First, an electronic attack that could cripple all weapons systems would also have knocked out communications and navigation on board the ship, too. Consequently, the ability to maneuver the ship would likely be affected, if not negated. The ship showed no sign of such paralysis.

Second, if the Russians had such a system, it would be one of their most carefully guarded secrets. The last thing the Russians would want would be to let the Americans know they had this capability. If the Russians had successfully demonstrated a system like this, the US would be frantically analyzing what happened, trying to reverse engineer the system for US use, and making urgent upgrades to ships to foil such attacks. Finally, I would add that if this system required that Russian planes squat at 30 feet over a ship, the system would be useless; no Russian plane would be allowed to approach within dozens of miles of a US vessel.

So why did this story suddenly appear? The encounter was primarily a propaganda ploy that by itself had minimal significance. The US reaction made it seem more significant than it was. The Russians, in turn, tried to magnify its importance by spreading a claim that at least some people might believe—thus making Russia appear more militarily imposing than it is. Reality is tenuous on the Internet… particularly on Twitter. Managing the Internet effectively has the potential to alter perceptions, at least among some. All countries and corporations use the Internet this way, but the Russians are masters of the craft.

[Kellhound]

Hey Kell, America belonged to native Americans in the same logic. But hell, Russia has 100000 more reasons to call that place theirs after that war.





Don't forget about the subs. If you actually trying to convince anyone here that cook would survive, i don't know what to say...




Still, 30 miles is a bit too close. Especially for a platform like cook.

No, they had no viable reason to get and keep Konigsberg and forcibly expel the German population in an era when taking land by force was being frowned upon (after all, that was what WWII was fought over). It is a black mark on American history that FDR was a pussy when dealing with Stalin. Patton was the one that had the right idea.

The subs assigned to the Baltic Fleet are a handful of SSKs, which cannot hunt faster than the Cook can flee. She could have been moored in a NATO port in less than 1.5 hours.

Look at a map, 30 miles outside Russian water is actually being very generous there.

[Slant]

You can guarantee can you? I'll hold my breath while your bow'er-in-chief "responds"

I'm just going to ignore the RT video... but you do realise what respect means, don't you? Oh, wait... pro Russian. So, here's the scoop... you can respect someone, without losing face. In fact, many people think that is a sign of confidence. See, what Putin's doing, all the headbutting of foreign leaders? That's really a sign of weakness. You don't rattle the sabre if you got fucking guns in your belt... you rattle the sabre when it's all you got, man.

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So is any Russian source good or ... ?

Well, you guys only post RT... so... is there?

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Hey Kell, America belonged to native Americans in the same logic. But hell, Russia has 100000 more reasons to call that place theirs after that war.

Wait, what? Are we talking about Königsberg?

[Kellhound]

I'm just going to ignore the RT video... but you do realise what respect means, don't you? Oh, wait... pro Russian. So, here's the scoop... you can respect someone, without losing face. In fact, many people think that is a sign of confidence. See, what Putin's doing, all the headbutting of foreign leaders? That's really a sign of weakness. You don't rattle the sabre if you got fucking guns in your belt... you rattle the sabre when it's all you got, man.

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Well, you guys only post RT... so... is there?

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Wait, what? Are we talking about Königsberg?

Yes, we are talking about East Prussia.

[Slant]

Yes, we are talking about East Prussia.

Ok, just wanted to check.

Except... how does Russia have "more reasons" to own it? Like... what? Can I just own Russia now, because even I couldn't fuck it up as badly as Putin did? That's a really good reason if you ask me.

[Skroe]

US Army General: next time Russian jets buzz US ships, it may not end well for them

I mean intimidation goes both ways. It's not as if the Russian's took their ships a handful of km of American shorelines right? The Americans are trying their hardest to drag NATO into this. NATO or not Russia needs to reassure them that in case that shit goes down, military action will be forwarded directly to the countries that get involved. I am not talking about bombing the some thousand troops in the baltics but rather the capitals of the countries that get involved.

This shit is ridiculous and it needs to end.

Russia's actions the past 24 months have been a global scale experiment in figuring out how much shit can be talked before you get hit.

Turkey hit them pretty hard. I doubt Russia will go for a second helping. Everything else is just games. He pokes the US because he knows the US is restraint enough not to break his jaw.

[Kellhound]

Ok, just wanted to check.

Except... how does Russia have "more reasons" to own it? Like... what? Can I just own Russia now, because even I couldn't fuck it up as badly as Putin did? That's a really good reason if you ask me.

"We won the war we helped you start so we are keeping this land as payment."

[Skroe]

A long read but well worth the time.

This is a tremendous piece and should be required reading in this thread. Thank you.

Very plainly puts everything folks who know anything about this stuff have been saying in this thread in one nice package.

[Slant]

Russia's actions the past 24 months have been a global scale experiment in figuring out how much shit can be talked before you get hit.

Turkey hit them pretty hard. I doubt Russia will go for a second helping. Everything else is just games. He pokes the US because he knows the US is restraint enough not to break his jaw.

You know what boggles my mind, though? They had to know they were locked on. What goes through a pilots head when he hears all the alarms go off that tell him the dude behind him has him in the crosshairs and only needs to squeeze the trigger, oh and he's not on your side and you're violating his airspace.

Wtf do you think in a situation like that? And more amusingly, what do you think once you get that launch warning that I assume jets have? Is it like "Uh-oh Dimitri, we fucked up!" or more like "What, really? REALLY? We were only playin' man!"

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"We won the war we helped you start so we are keeping this land as payment."

Oh, okay... yeah, that's a pretty good reason. Oh, and also having like a gadzillion people in your capital, I guess. Makes it valid. Yep.

[Skroe]

the ship in this incident had SM-3 capability, which intercepts ballistic missiles though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-16...dard_Missile_3

And was probably carrying SM-6s and maybe Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles.

SM-6 travels at least at Mach 3.5. ESSM travels at at least Mach 4.5.

The 3M-54 Klub aka Kaliber, Russia's most advanced cruise missile, in the 3M-54E1 model which is most numerous, travels as Mach 0.9. The The 3M-54, 3M-54E, 3M-54TE and 3M-54AE are subsonic but "sprint" to about Mach 2 when in terminal range. However SM-6s vastly out range 3M-54 (except one variant) and ESSM is short range point defense, but over twice the speed.

So yes. Much faster than cruise missiles!

[Macaquerie]

I don't think it would've made much of a difference if the Soviets annexed East Prussia after the war or not. If they hadn't, it would've just gone to Poland and the Germans would have been kicked out just the same.

[Deleted]

And was probably carrying SM-6s and maybe Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles.

SM-6 travels at least at Mach 3.5. ESSM travels at at least Mach 4.5.

The 3M-54 Klub aka Kaliber, Russia's most advanced cruise missile, in the 3M-54E1 model which is most numerous, travels as Mach 0.9. The The 3M-54, 3M-54E, 3M-54TE and 3M-54AE are subsonic but "sprint" to about Mach 2 when in terminal range. However SM-6s vastly out range 3M-54 (except one variant) and ESSM is short range point defense, but over twice the speed.

So yes. Much faster than cruise missiles!

But they wouldn`t use Kaliber against USS Donald Cook if they wanted to sink it (for the sake of argument).

Granit/Onyx, those are their go-to anti-ship missiles.
I guess you could also add Brahmos to that list.

[Kellhound]

I don't think it would've made much of a difference if the Soviets annexed East Prussia after the war or not. If they hadn't, it would've just gone to Poland and the Germans would have been kicked out just the same.

At least Poland controlled the area at one point, and it actually connects to Poland. Plus, Poland let a larger portion of Germans stay in new Polish territory than the Soviets did in Konigsberg.

[Theinquisition]

Russia's actions the past 24 months have been a global scale experiment in figuring out how much shit can be talked before you get hit.

Turkey hit them pretty hard. I doubt Russia will go for a second helping. Everything else is just games. He pokes the US because he knows the US is restraint enough not to break his jaw.

although the tears of Ultima and Djail would be delicious if we did.

Eventually Putin is going to be eating a big ol serving of humble pie. Gonna be awesome when he does.

[Skroe]

You know what boggles my mind, though? They had to know they were locked on. What goes through a pilots head when he hears all the alarms go off that tell him the dude behind him has him in the crosshairs and only needs to squeeze the trigger, oh and he's not on your side and you're violating his airspace.

Wtf do you think in a situation like that? And more amusingly, what do you think once you get that launch warning that I assume jets have? Is it like "Uh-oh Dimitri, we fucked up!" or more like "What, really? REALLY? We were only playin' man!"

It just shows, along with Putin's secret funerals of the few thousand Russian troops that died in Ukraine and intimidation of their families, the utter contempt he and his clique holds for the people he actually rules.

[Kellhound]

But they wouldn`t use Kaliber against USS Donald Cook if they wanted to sink it (for the sake of argument).

Granit/Onyx, those are their go-to anti-ship missiles.
I guess you could also add Brahmos to that list.

These are also exactly the types of missiles the AEGIS system was designed to counter, and they require accurate targeting information.