"It is not the game/company, it is the community itself"-mantra

[Deleted]

Anonymity is the sole reason why there are so many assholes on the internet. Same goes for WoW. Yes it is the person choosing to be an ass. But if Blizzard would battle anonymity, there would be less assholes.

This is just plain wrong. Just take a look at facebook - there are many "assholes" and they don't care if everyone sees their real names.

[Vaelorian]

Except in regards to Blizzard "ruining" the community that is just outright false. If anything they gave the tools to make the communities stronger and larger than they were but people collectively decided to use them as ways to segregate and isolate themselves. If you really want to be social the tools are there and there's still plenty of community left in the game. Only difference now is you're not "forced" to socialize with other players with the addition of LFR and non elite quests. But the people are still there, talk to them if that's what you really want. But apparently most people are anti-social in this game and don't actually want to interact with one another. That's directly on the players.

You say it better then most "typical mmo-c posters" but you do say the same.
The thing you forget or ignore is that Blizzard should know "human behavior". You can expect that from a company as big as Blizzard. They should know before implementing certain things how this in turn will affect player behavior. Sometimes they can't I give them that. But overall they should be able to determine the outcome of certain methods or features.
If as you say they wanted to improve the community but instead players decided otherwise...well isn't that on them?
They are something of a parent aren't they? They decide on how it is ok to act. It is like real life really. You think that your mother would be safe(r) from being raped if the government would decide that all acts are allowed/no laws are in place/no punishment. I think there would be chaos in the street and the right of the strongest would prevail.
So if you have a system in which it is more efficient to solo then to play as a group, people will do so.
If however it is better to group up, they will if the incentive is right.

The fact they removed elites and elite quests tells you that they don't care anymore about group stuff. Everything is solo.
That is until you want to do Challenge mode dungeons or (non LFR) raids.

Should Blizzard remove crossrealm tech and make it serverwide only (LFX) the community will be better, I promise you.
The down side would be that realms are empty. Atleast a lot of them are. So queues would be insane. And people would leave the game due to not being able to play. Merging true... that would be the solution but noooo there is this Mythic that actual merges would be the bane of WOW or any game (to parrot certain doomsayers).

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This is just plain wrong. Just take a look at facebook - there are many "assholes" and they don't care if everyone sees their real names.

I never said there aren't any assholes in general. I will however defend my statement that anonymity will provide MORE assholes. Did you misunderstood? Or are you ignoring my statement on purpose?

[Seefer]

Might've been because the game was fun once upon a time and didn't heavy hand people into 1-2 things.

Dailies, leveling alts, dungeons, raids..................yeah, yeah it really did, less so in Vanilla and TBC.

[Raiju]

This is just plain wrong. Just take a look at facebook - there are many "assholes" and they don't care if everyone sees their real names.

Different dynamic. Your name made your accountable ingame that makes you less likely to be a dick to people due to repercussions. Unless you have your employer on facebook it's generally not the same thing.

[neocount]

One of the problems I think is that Blizzard is trying desperately to make the game as accessible as possible. They're trying to make everyone happy.

Personally, and I realize many do now share this view, but when I'm able to see all of the content easily, there is nothing left for me to strive for. Sure, I could run the same raid on a higher difficulty and there is at least some satisfaction in that accomplishment, but not nearly as much as there is in seeing it for the first time that way. Part of me wants to say "In Legion, I'm not going to queue for any LFR or LFD, and just try and run with guildies and friends." but the reality of the situation, usually, is that taking that path leaves you behind. I don't know. Just thinking out loud here. It's a complex issue.

[Golden]

I think a very good experiment Blizzard could do is to make a server type where LFD, LFR, CRZ, and potentially the group finder are all disabled. If the server is a success, then the players that enjoy that type of game are better serviced. If it is a failure, then we will all know that queuing isn't the cause of bad communities and the server can be linked to other normal servers again.

Some statistics I would really love for Blizzard to release about players that only participate in LFR or lower content are:
1. What percentage of them are reported for harassment compared to the rest of the community?
2. What percentage of them are caught bot'ing compared to the rest of the community?
3. What percentage of them are banned from the forums or game compared to the rest of the community?

I don't know if a lot of them are reported for harassment. Most the people I see mouthing off in LFD/LFR are actually raiders. I doubt many are caught bot'ing because it wouldn't be worth the trouble for what they do. And, I doubt many get banned from the forums since, according to Blizzard, only about 5% of them even visit the forums. I wonder if these "solo players" even know raiders are endlessly trashing them on the forums and are blaming them for the bad community.

[Lochton]

Nah, how I see it, it's 50/50.

[Mad_Murdock]

This is just plain wrong. Just take a look at facebook - there are many "assholes" and they don't care if everyone sees their real names.

I wouldn't pin it exactly on Anonymity, as much as being out of reach. Whether you know my real name or not is a little less important to me, than knowing that overall you can't reach me. Of course, there has been plenty of knuckleheads who thought they couldn't be touched and lost jobs because they somehow thought it was smart to post that their boss was a moron on their face book page.

I think we are still coming of age, in this new digital world, and we feel like we have nothing but freedom to express ourselves. I think overall, at least in America, we've lost a great deal of our civility and ability to have open discussions and disagree without getting all bent out of shape. Politics and Religion have always been terrible topics to try and have reason discussions around. Now it seems just about everything is a polarizing topic. Of course, back in the day when you had these kind of talks in person, things were more civil. Now being half a world away, I have no reason to refrain from spewing insults at people I disagree with, they can't punch me in the nose.

[Vaelorian]

I wouldn't pin it exactly on Anonymity, as much as being out of reach. Whether you know my real name or not is a little less important to me, than knowing that overall you can't reach me. Of course, there has been plenty of knuckleheads who thought they couldn't be touched and lost jobs because they somehow thought it was smart to post that their boss was a moron on their face book page.

I think we are still coming of age, in this new digital world, and we feel like we have nothing but freedom to express ourselves. I think overall, at least in America, we've lost a great deal of our civility and ability to have open discussions and disagree without getting all bent out of shape. Politics and Religion have always been terrible topics. Now it seems just about everything is a polarizing topic. Of course, back in the day when you had these kind of talks in person, things were more civil. Now being half a world away, I have no reason to refrain from spewing the insults with people I disagree with, they can't punch me in the nose.

this, so much

[BreakerOfWills]

Just from the way you talk it's clear youre part of the problem. Reinforcing all the worst entitled bullshit parts of the communities mentality. The best part is you're absolutely oblivious - continuing on with your "there's no point talking to people" "there's no difficult content" "there's no epic loot" mentality. While refusing to do any of the content that provides the exact things you say you want.

[Vaelorian]

Just from the way you talk it's clear youre part of the problem. Reinforcing all the worst entitled bullshit parts of the communities mentality. The best part is you're absolutely oblivious - continuing on with your "there's no point talking to people" "there's no difficult content" "there's no epic loot" mentality. While refusing to do any of the content that provides the exact things you say you want.

I understand your post. But you cannot deduce that from my post if you meant me. You don't know me nor do I tell a 100% story here. Also I do not blame the community. So why do I have to blame myself as being part of the community that I don't blame?

Background of me ingame (which also doesn't give you a full version obviously):
7 years of GM of a hardcore high worldranked guild (25 man)
11 years I played this game from the day it launched on retail
I never treated anyone badly, instead I offered help to those who were treated as such by others
Together with other GM's I policed the server a bit with blacklists of people who were unfit (assholes/egoistic people) to join high end raiding guilds

Now of this list I understand that the last line I wrote is something that is going to blow way out of proportion. Policing in this manner means:"report the behavior of the player in question to the new guildmaster, it is then up to that guildmaster to act or not." It was about information not judgement.

[Vaelorian]

Valid points, and I really dont want to use this example but lets be mature and not derail the thread with it;

A perfect example of a community returning to its roots again is a certain server that was recently shut down, with a sample size that large it proves that there is some degree to which design choices influence the social aspect of an MMO.

Yeah I was actually thinking the same here.

[RoxyBlue]

Yeah cuz you know, the sub numbers before all the cross realm crap were SO low *eyeroll*

I think its coincidence really. Look I remember in BC trying to get a group to run heroics taking and hour plus easy, so no I dont think lfd ruined that part of the game. It improved it actually, the problem isnt lfd/lfr/cr, its the players themselves. LFD etc were just tools to make grouping a little faster and easier, blame the players for the abuse. Did it harm server communities? yes in a way, but if the people on that server were really a community anyway they would have been running together and not needing to use LFD/LFR. Again its players choice.

[Gheld]

Senpai, I have blamed your critics. Do you love me now?

[Seefer]

I think its coincidence really. Look I remember in BC trying to get a group to run heroics taking and hour plus easy, so no I dont think lfd ruined that part of the game. It improved it actually, the problem isnt lfd/lfr/cr, its the players themselves. LFD etc were just tools to make grouping a little faster and easier, blame the players for the abuse. Did it harm server communities? yes in a way, but if the people on that server were really a community anyway they would have been running together and not needing to use LFD/LFR. Again its players choice.

Really? Never took me more than 5 minutes to run a dungeon back then, I used my guild, you know.......the glorified chat rooms that we have now?

[RoxyBlue]

Really? Never took me more than 5 minutes to run a dungeon back then, I used my guild, you know.......the glorified chat rooms that we have now?

Well good for you 5 min heroic BC runs, must have been fabulous. For the rest of the wow pop back then that werent in raid guilds that didnt raid and their endgame was heroics maybe with a little KZ on the side..it wasnt that easy. And there were a lot of non raiders in BC more than any other expansion. Its why poaching was at an all time high, no one wanted to bother gearing up ad teaching a new raider when they could just take an experienced one from another guild.

[Mad_Murdock]

I think its coincidence really. Look I remember in BC trying to get a group to run heroics taking and hour plus easy, so no I dont think lfd ruined that part of the game. It improved it actually, the problem isnt lfd/lfr/cr, its the players themselves. LFD etc were just tools to make grouping a little faster and easier, blame the players for the abuse. Did it harm server communities? yes in a way, but if the people on that server were really a community anyway they would have been running together and not needing to use LFD/LFR. Again its players choice.

For me I was pretty happy with the LFD tool. While it obviously varies from server to server, Pre-LFD was so much of a pain. #1, I started out as a Hunter and in TBC there was a point, at least on my server were being a hunter that wasn't in a top raiding guild just became depressing. Trying to get in Heroic dungeons felt like a trying to enter the country from Mexico and the mistakes all other classes were allowed to make versus a hunter was amazing. Someone breaks my ice trap it was always because I put it in the wrong spot. So I re-rolled to a warrior, which proved to be even worse, because unless I was a tank, I offered no CC, no CC, no reason to bring me.

LFD remove much of the barriers, For the first time I was free to play whatever class I wanted and wouldn't have to pass an exam to be allowed into the groups. I was already in a raiding guild at the time and getting heroic runs wasn't that hard, but I enjoyed the new freedom of queing up whenever I wanted and knocking it out before raid.

I also don't miss the tanks and healers continuing to do their dailies while the rest of us flew to the instance, because they expected to be summoned for their services to tank\heal.

[Glorious Leader]

The community has no responsibility towards the game's development. It is all on the developers.

[Sansnom]

Anonymity is the bane of any game really. Instead of lessening anonymity Blizzard only strengthens it by crossrealm tech. Anonymity is the sole reason why there are so many assholes on the internet. Same goes for WoW. Yes it is the person choosing to be an ass. But if Blizzard would battle anonymity, there would be less assholes.

It is human behavior. Willpower you say? Really? Why have willpower in a game?

So, rather than people being more respectful to others, the onus is on Blizzard to provide the environment where people are required to be nice.

Sometimes people need to be forced in order to better enjoy a game.

Why? Why "forced"? Forcing people to not being able to fly is making them enjoy the game better, as an example? I think there are quite a few people who would disagree with that.

[RoxyBlue]

My take on the whole BC grouping thing was this, before I got in a guild that raided, doing heroics to get some upgrades was pita. I had the misfortune of playing dps back then because I wanted too. It would take me forever to find a group, mainly getting a tank and healer was a nightmare. Then once you slogged to the instance and waited for someone to show up and help summon you had the misfortune of wiping in the instance because not every group was proficient at cc or los pulls. So many times a tank or healer would bail and its back to the drawing board.