[Spoilers] The State of Stromgarde

[Maxilian]

Look at alliance airships. Just get something stuck in one of those propellers and watch it roflcopter to the ground.

Like a Infernal?



Poor Varian

[Deleted]

By the Titans... Tirion saved Eitrigg because he was going to be executed, going against the Alliance decision of orc encampment. As an superior officer of the Alliance, he had all the rights to uphold the Alliance tenements.

[Zulkhan]

Uther would commend Tirion and condem the scarlets.

Exactly. Uther held Tirion in high regard and quickly bashed everyone who didn't show the proper respect to him. He admitted he owed his life to him and so Mograine did, as shown in the Ashbringer comic. It's just that Uther couldn't really understand Tirion's actions since he lacked the latter's perspective on the matter. After all, as I said already, Tirion himself was quite biased towards orcs before he met Eitrigg and simply deemed all of them monsters. Uther tried in all ways to convince Tirion to give up his convictions and was eventually forced to banish him even though he strongly regretted that.

Uther warned Arthas about vengeance and bloodlust and the Scarlet Crusade fell even lower than Arthas himself. In the end they became nothing but a deranged order driven by hatred and vengeance, turning them prey of the machinations of a demon, ready to commit any self-justified atrocity and managing to remain "paladins" only thanks to their dwindling sanity and increasing zealotry. While is understandable why certain paladins weren't strong enough to maintain their faith without descending to zealotry given the apocalyptic situation, nothing changes the fact that they became everything a Paladin shouldn't be and deserved to be put down, since reasoning with them proved to be futile.

At this point I've decided M-ra has no love for what Paladins actually are in Warcraft lore, only what she wants them to be.

M-Ra loves Paladins who looks like Paladins but are no Paladins at all. Which is okay, as long you acknowledge these pseudo-paladins as an interesting yet villainous faction. Less okay is when you twist and spin the story to fit your headcanon to turn the deranged Paladins into what Paladins should aim to be, while the shinest embodiment of the core virtues of Paladins is some scumbag unworthy to wield the Ashbringer. It's a literal attempt to overturn the lore upside-down.

[Deleted]

Uther tried in all ways to convince Tirion to give up his convictions and was eventually forced to banish him even though he strongly regretted that.

Precisely. It wasn't because Eitrigg that Tirion was exiled, it was because of his disobey of a superior order.

[Graden]

Exactly. Uther held Tirion in high regard and quickly bashed everyone who didn't show the proper respect to him.

Precisely, also Uther was the one that as a last token of respect to his friend, did not exile Tirion's family for his ''crime''.

[Deleted]

M-Ra loves Paladins who looks like Paladins but are no Paladins at all. Which is okay, as long you acknowledge these pseudo-paladins as an interesting yet villainous faction. Less okay is when you twist and spin the story to fit your headcanon to turn the deranged Paladins into what Paladins should aim to be, while the shinest embodiment of the core virtues of Paladins is some scumbag unworthy to wield the Ashbringer. It's a literal attempt to overturn the lore upside-down.

I explained what my problem with Tirion is. For me, he took the Law in his own Hands and I think the way he saved Eitrigg was wrong. That doesn't mean that the Scarlet Crusade was better. Related to Taelans Death, I just said that his Death was justified and I don't think it was right to flee, instead of using his position to change the Crusade. What Taelan Fordring did was desertion and killing his comrads. He commited crimes, for those every army on Azeroth hat executed him and that I think that, despite every other Crimes Isilien may have commited, he was right in executing Taelan Fordring and that therefore Tirions act of killing Isilien for Taelan Death was nothing but Vengeance. That may be fuyy, but I think those little differences are important as a Paladin.


I liked the Scarlet Crusade more, because I think it is more interesting and deeper to have a Faction of people who were truly righteous and noble and turned into Zealots because they don't can bear the cruelty they see. I think as Anti-Hero Faction they would have been more interesting than the Argent Crusade because a good writer coult put a more sceptical and cynical view on what Paladins are and how unrealistic the Burden of this standarts are for mere humans.

In my point of view, an ideal Paladin is a pure Paragon of Justice. Someone who is perfect and who bears the burden of the whole world on his shoulders. He wants to protect the whole world, while he keeps up his high moral standarts and his honor. Blizzard writes stories about Heroes who perfectly fulfill this standarts and defeat the evil with the Power of their Honor and Morals. What I would want to see, is a Story about Paladins who break under this Ideal of a Paladin and reach the point where they have just two choices: Keeping of their Honor and Morals and saving no one or sacrificing everything they are, everything they believe in, turn into something they would hate just to protect someone and of course a story where the psycholocal backlash of this choices are emphasized. I want a Story were Stratholme is not simply the point were Arthas turned black, but symbol of how cruel the World is and what choices a Paladin have, if they cruelty of the world reaches them: Sacrificing their honor, their innocents, their morals to stop evil or turn away and keep ones honor like Paladin did. I want a story were being a good Paladin is often not enough.

[Friendlyimmolation]

In my point of view the silver hand is evil!

[Ragerre]

There was that guy, Perenolde, who helped orcs even more than Tirion. Does any horde fan blame him? No, because his actions were good for the Horde.
It's that simple, really.

Also, Tirion has quite high chances of becoming bloodlust undead in Legion. If he does that of his own free will he will become much less holy and won't be able to serve as Paragon of Virtue for paladins anymore. Especially after paladins get beaten so that DKs can get him.

[Deleted]

In my point of view the silver hand is evil!

They were founded to slaughter Orcs. Thats their story.

[Friendlyimmolation]

They were founded to slaughter Orcs. Thats their story.

They were founded to counter warlocks and to protect the innocent. The scarlet crusade did neither

[Zulkhan]

They were founded to slaughter Orcs. Thats their story.

They were founded to protect their people, not to slaughter. You know, the reason why Turalyon was disturbed by Alleria's genocidal urges.

[Deleted]

They were founded to counter warlocks and to protect the innocent. The scarlet crusade did neither

They were pretty much founded for the fight against the Orcs, so if you are an Orcfan, they are pretty much the evil.

And there were Civilians under the Scarlet Crusade. Just look at New Avalon pre Acherus. Yes, they killed pretty much innocent, but thats more complicated than you depict it. And I think it's pretty hypocritical that peope say "oh, they were corrupted and used by demons, they all deserve to die" while the same people use the argument that they were manipulated and corrupted by demons as a excuse for all the crimes the Orcs commited. If one of both groups is fully to blame for letting themselves corrupt by demons, then both are.

[Friendlyimmolation]

They were pretty much founded for the fight against the Orcs, so if you are an Orcfan, they are pretty much the evil.

And there were Civilians under the Scarlet Crusade. Just look at New Avalon pre Acherus. Yes, they killed pretty much innocent, but thats more complicated than you depict it. And I think it's pretty hypocritical that peope say "oh, they were corrupted and used by demons, they all deserve to die" while the same people use the argument that they were manipulated and corrupted by demons as a excuse for all the crimes the Orcs commited. If one of both groups is fully to blame for letting themselves corrupt by demons, then both are.

What both sides did was wrong, the fact that the scarlet crusade needed hilariously less manipulation to go full genocide agaisnt the people they swore to protect is what is hilarious. The civilians under the scarlet crusade were scarlet crusade. But I'm sure you didn't conviently forget to mention that.

[Deleted]

What both sides did was wrong, the fact that the scarlet crusade needed hilariously less manipulation to go full genocide agaisnt the people they swore to protect is what is hilarious. The civilians under the scarlet crusade were scarlet crusade. But I'm sure you didn't conviently forget to mention that.

Yeah, but they were in the middle of a Scarlet Crusade. Every plagued Village could strengthen the Scourge and make many former battles in vain. I don't say it was good and the Scarlet Crusade went too far, but they stood against a real dangerous enemy, they were really in danger and most Crusaders probably suffered many traumatic experiences that weakened their psychological condiction. They were probably in fact easy to manipulate, because of the high psychological stress and suffering they were exposed too and everytime the Demon manipulates them into doing something horrible and evil, it gets easier. Many Crusaders probably reached the point at some time, were they just don't were able to doubt Dathrohans Propaganda anymore, because that would mean every sacrifice the made, every crime they commited was pointless.

[Zulkhan]

They were pretty much founded for the fight against the Orcs, so if you are an Orcfan, they are pretty much the evil.

Except not everyone applies half-assed roleplaying crap while posting here.

Your point is flawed, as always. The Order of the Silver Hand was created to fight Orcs, sure, because Orcs represented a threat to their people. It was also an order built on very precise principles to be honored because that is what meant to be a Paladin and marked the difference from those who didn't belong to said order.

[KaiserSolarius]

Tirion Fordring was, and probably will be in the undeath, boring and lame for the same reasons Thrall, Anduin, Vol'Jin, Yrel and others are boring and lame: There is no fundamental differences betwen them, they are all freaking goody-two-shoes. Not only that, but they are also PERFECT. They don't make mistakes, their decisions are always morally irreprochable. There is less and less room in Warcraft for grey characters. People don't have motivations, they're either champions of the light or absolute assholes, often magically corrupted.
For exemple: Liadrin and the Blood Knights were very cools during BC. Unbelieving, ressentful paladins who submit the Light to their will while also being a political police for an authoritarian-magocratic Kingdom. How innovative and interesting is that? Two patch later? They're standard paladins again and they suck draeneis and Naarus d*cks. We're not sure yet, but Illidan is maybe going to be a FREAKING ANGEL OF THE LIGHT, AFTER ALL.

The Scarlet Crusade is, in my oppinion, one of the greatest thing in WoW. Well, were. They're dead since Cataclysm, since Blizzard seems to hate them from this point. (That f*ucking guy dancing in the fountain...)
The Crusaders absolutely had do horrible things. But, come on. Their Kingdom, their family, their friends have been transformed into undeads by an infected grain, their own prince turned against them and they were sourrounded by the Scourge and the Forsakens 24h/24h. They had reasons for not being Anduin-like friendly to everyone. Their paranoïa and acts were comprehensive if not justifiable. Plus, they did have protected, for a time, some civilians. New-Avalon. Well, until the Ebon Blade shows up and slaughter them all. But hey, not their fault, Lich King's fault. Now they can even be hypocritical to the point of qualifying the Scarlet Crusaders of "murderers beyond redemption" in their campaign of Legion.
They were an exemple of the ambiguous morality I love in a game and in a RPG. The Horde of Garrosh, the Kingdom of Quel'Thalas pre-Sunwell, the Illidari, and Arthas are other exemples. But a this point in WoW, I can't think of many of them anymore. Well, maybe Moira, in a way, and Sylvanas and the Forsaken. But I'm sure she's gonna ending being a raid boss and the Forsaken will be "free of her tyranny/genocidal envy", just like Garrosh.

But that's just, like, my opinion.

PS: I beg you to pardon my english. Swiss french-speaking here.

[Deleted]

Tirion Fordring was, and probably will be in the undeath, boring and lame for the same reasons Thrall, Anduin, Vol'Jin, Yrel and others are boring and lame: There is no fundamental differences betwen them, they are all freaking goody-two-shoes. Not only that, but they are also PERFECT. They don't make mistakes, their decisions are always morally irreprochable. There is less and less room in Warcraft for grey characters. People don't have motivations, they're either champions of the light or absolute assholes, often magically corrupted.
For exemple: Liadrin and the Blood Knights were very cools during BC. Unbelieving, ressentful paladins who submit the Light to their will while also being a political police for an authoritarian-magocratic Kingdom. How innovative and interesting is that? Two patch later? They're standard paladins again and they suck dreaeneis and Naarus d*cks. We're not sure yet, but Illidan is maybe going to be a FREAKING ANGEL OF THE LIGHT, AFTER ALL.

The Scarlet Crusade is, in my oppinion, one of the greatest thing in WoW. Well, were. They're dead since Cataclysm, since Blizzard seems to hate them from this point. (That f*ucking guy dancing in the fountain...)
The Crusaders absolutely had do horrible things. But, come on. Their Kingdom, their family, their friends have been transformed into undeads by an infected grain, their own prince turned against them and they were sourrounded by the Scourge and the Forsakens 24h/24h. They had reasons for not being Anduin-like friendly to everyone. Their paranoïa and acts were comprehensive if not justifiable. Plus, they did have protected, for a time, some civilians. New-Avalon. Well, until the Ebon Blade shows up and slaughter them all. But hey, not their fault, Lich King's fault. Now they can even be hypocritical to the point of qualifying the Scarlet Crusaders of "murderers beyond redemption" in their campaign of Legion.
They were an exemple of the ambiguous morality I love in a game and in a RPG. The Horde of Garrosh, the Kingdom of Quel'Thalas pre-Sunwell, the Illidari, and Arthas are other exemples. But a this point in WoW, I can't think of many of them anymore. Well, maybe Moira, in a way, and Sylvanas and the Forsaken. But I'm sure she's gonna ending being a raid boss and the Forsaken will "free of her tyranny/genocidal envy", just like Garrosh.

But that's just, like, my opinion.

PS: I beg you to pardon my english. Swiss french-speaking here.

*hugs him*
My Brother!

[Zulkhan]

But that's just, like, my opinion.

Duly noted.