Lets assume 15 dollars an hour happens

[Captain N]

Still not answered the point........

You said that raising the minimum wage is economically harmful. I said it isn't and provided data proving the exact opposite. Either show how the IMF is wrong or admit you are wrong.

You're not going to get a straight answer from him -- Everything is a Restriction of Freedom.

Hell he even decided to address my point with a Forbes Opinion piece. Seattle doesn't even have a $15 minimum wage yet. But let's use an actual chart:

https://ycharts.com/indicators/seatt...mployment_rate

Seattle's Unemployment was 4.7% last month and is now at 4.4% -- So we have a brief spike to 4.7% a raise in unemployment by .5% and it has begun settling back to the 4.2% that it was in December 2015 when the wage increases were introduced. Go back further...The unemployment cycle in the city always tends to fluctuate between 3.2% and 4.4% even going back to 2013.

Wanna try again?

[Machismo]

Still not answered the point........

You said that raising the minimum wage is economically harmful. I said it isn't and provided data proving the exact opposite. Either show how the IMF is wrong or admit you are wrong.

And no the GDP growth is not accounted for by inflation that is factored out.

GDP does factor in inflation, Real GDP does not. You cited GDP numbers, which would still include inflation. Of course you could also just look at the employment numbers for Seattle, if you really want to.

[Adam Jensen]

My entire argument against a minimum wage is that it is unnecessary, and a restriction of freedom. It artifically manipulates the basic fundamentals of capitalism. It also leads to inflation, let's not forget about that (which could easily account for that GDP growth). I'll stick with countries that do not have a minimum wage.

A restriction on what freedom? To pay your workers in nickels, or worse, in scrip that can only be spent at the company store?

I'll take a restriction of "freedom" on corporate greed over the restriction of freedom on workers any day.

[Deleted]

My entire argument against a minimum wage is that it is unnecessary, and a restriction of freedom. It artifically manipulates the basic fundamentals of capitalism. It also leads to inflation, let's not forget about that (which could easily account for that GDP growth). I'll stick with countries that do not have a minimum wage.

My dear friend, what fundamentals of capitalism? For crying out loud, how old are you? Were you asleep for the last 20 or 30 or 40 years now? Year by year, governemtns cave in more and more to corporate lobbying. "Free trade" agreements, bailouts, exemptions from or lifting of taxes and regulations, gov't tolerating what is in essence massive tax fraud (to the point of trillions of dollars disappearing magically into the tax heavens). ALL of these things, and more, do nothing but "artifically manipulate the basic fundamentals of capitalism" - by creating a playing field where the rich get richer and nobody can compete, while at the same time fucking over both their workers AND the society at large, because public services - that's education, healthcare, transport, infrastructure, enforcement and a lot of other things - COST MONEY. Why should we accept that some rich sectors or companies can just use it all and reap the profits without contributing? Such practices SHIT right onto your vaunted free market capitalism, which was built on two fundamentals: a reasonably level playing field for all and gov't that actually has enough strenght to enforce the rules and provide basic services.

And now, when the obvious and belated backlash against this shit is starting to appear, people like you are suddenly pro-freedom. Well, whoop-de-fucking do, economic freedom used to mean something in the age of Henry Ford or in the 50's, now it's just a convenient buzzword for corp shills and thinly veiled money grabbing Ponzi schemes (subprime crisis... rings a bell maybe?).

Maybe that's the reason why most economies have a problem with STAGNATION AND DEFLATION at the moment, not with inflation? Hmm, hmmm, who knows, it's apparently a mystery.

[Toppy]

ITT: people who dont know a single thing about economics

[Machismo]

You're not going to get a straight answer from him -- Everything is a Restriction of Freedom.

Hell he even decided to address my point with a Forbes Opinion piece. Seattle doesn't even have a $15 minimum wage yet. But let's use an actual chart:

https://ycharts.com/indicators/seatt...mployment_rate

Seattle's Unemployment was 4.7% last month and is now at 4.4% -- So we have a brief spike to 4.7% a raise in unemployment by .5% and it has begun settling back to the 4.2% that it was in December 2015 when the wage increases were introduced. Go back further...The unemployment cycle in the city always tends to fluctuate between 3.2% and 4.4% even going back to 2013.

Wanna try again?

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/02...s-into-effect/

[Narwal]

Nobody? No. Considerably fewer people on food stamps? Yes.

So would you say that if we do not see less people in california on food stamps or on welfare, that the raise of minimum wage was a failure?

[Machismo]

A restriction on what freedom? To pay your workers in nickels, or worse, in scrip that can only be spent at the company store?

I'll take a restriction of "freedom" on corporate greed over the restriction of freedom on workers any day.

A restriction on paying an employee what you both agree they are worth.

- - - Updated - - -

My dear friend, what fundamentals of capitalism? For crying out loud, how old are you? Were you asleep for the last 20 or 30 or 40 years now? Year by year, governemtns cave in more and more to corporate lobbying. "Free trade" agreements, bailouts, exemptions from or lifting of taxes and regulations, gov't tolerating what is in essence massive tax fraud (to the point of trillions of dollars disappearing magically into the tax heavens). ALL of these things, and more, are "artifically manipulate the basic fundamentals of capitalism" - by creating a playing field where the rich get richer and nobody can compete, while at the same time fucking over both their workers AND the society at large, because public services - that's education, healthcare, transport, infrastructure, enforcement and a lot of other things - COST MONEY. Why should we accept that some rich sectors or companies can just use it all and reap the profits without contributing? Such practices SHIT right onto your vaunted free market capitalism, which was built on two fundamentals: a level playing field for all and gov't that actually has enough strenght to enforce the rules and provide basic services.

And now, when the obvious and belated backlash against this shit is starting to appear, people like you are suddenly pro-freedom. Well, whoop-de-fucking do, economic freedom used to mean something in the age of Henry Ford or in the 50's, now it's just a convenient buzzword for corp shills and thinly veiled money grabbing Ponzi schemes (subprime crisis... rings a bell maybe?).

Maybe that's the reason while most economies have a problem with STAGNATION AND DEFLATION at the moment, not with inflation? Hmm, hmmm, who knows, it's apparently a mystery.

You are mistaking corporatism and capitalism. I do not support corporatism, which is why I want the government as far from our markets as possible.

[Adam Jensen]

A restriction on paying an employee what you both agree they are worth.

We had that freedom once. The corporations abused it. They didn't give a shit and paid shit, and workers lived in poverty because of it. Why would you want to go back to that era?

[Toppy]

We had that freedom once. The corporations abused it. They didn't give a shit and paid shit, and workers lived in poverty because of it. Why would you want to go back to that era?

People are of the mind that something like that cant happen again despite the wage disparity currently being so bad that in many areas of the country it pretty much is.

The rise of the welfare state is directly related to employers refusing to pay decent wages.

Low wages caused welfare, not the other way around as people seem to think. Nor does "hard work and sacrifice" guarantee that you'll get out of the low wage hole. If anything it keeps people in it as hard work leads to no time for education.

[Shadowferal]

Yu are mistaking corporatism and capitalism. I do not support corporatism, which is why I want the government as far from our markets as possible.

WTF do you imagine that deregulation leads to?

Monopolies and we have the "Robber Baron" era all over again.

History's Greatest Hits are supposed to be something we learn from, not repeat.

[Deleted]

Yu are mistaking corporatism and capitalism. I do not support corporatism

Well then, it seems you're S.O.L. in that case and you need to find yourself some other planet to live - maybe Nibiru, Yuggoth or Krypton? Because here on Earth global economy evolved into exactly this moloch of corporate, Gibsonesque greed for money and power - and these guys ain't gonna let that money and power go. That's what strong governments used to be for - keeping the beast in chains. Now it's out and having all sorts of fun.

[belfpala]

A restriction on paying an employee what you both agree they are worth.

That's not how employment compensation negotiations work. If a person really needs a job, they have no negotiation leverage. That person can name their desired wage (let's say $20). The employer responds, nope, $13 and we'll discuss it again in 90 days. Done, otherwise the person is out of work.

- - - Updated - - -

WTF do you imagine that deregulation leads to?

I'm remembering an old flyer my boss at one job had framed and posted in his office. It was instructions for employees at a factory in the early 1900's. Among the instructions was something like, "We suggest you bring your own coal if you'd like heat."

[Machismo]

We had that freedom once. The corporations abused it. They didn't give a shit and paid shit, and workers lived in poverty because of it. Why would you want to go back to that era?

There are countries that do just fine with no minimum age, we should emulate them.

[Fugus]

There are countries that do just fine with no minimum age, we should emulate them.

They also have extremely strong unions. So we have to fix that first.

[Machismo]

WTF do you imagine that deregulation leads to?

Monopolies and we have the "Robber Baron" era all over again.

History's Greatest Hits are supposed to be something we learn from, not repeat.

Corporatism can only exist with the help of government regulations. They use it to unbalance the competitive playing field and limit competition, or force people to purchase a product.

[Fugus]

Corporatism can only exist with the help of government regulations. They use it to unbalance the competitive playing field and limit competition, or force people to purchase a product.

No, not really. Corporatism can happen in any arena where the costs of entry is high or the incumbent can muscle or buy out new competition.

Forcing the government out of an area many times doesn't get government out of it, it just allows the corporations to take over the role of government with even less accountability.

[Shadowferal]

Corporatism can only exist with the help of government regulations. They use it to unbalance the competitive playing field and limit competition, or force people to purchase a product.

Wow...you actually bought that kool-aid and drank it.

How did "corporatism" get there to begin with? Just think about that...

[Machismo]

That's not how employment compensation negotiations work. If a person really needs a job, they have no negotiation leverage. That person can name their desired wage (let's say $20). The employer responds, nope, $13 and we'll discuss it again in 90 days. Done, otherwise the person is out of work.

- - - Updated - - -



I'm remembering an old flyer my boss at one job had framed and posted in his office. It was instructions for employees at a factory in the early 1900's. Among the instructions was something like, "We suggest you bring your own coal if you'd like heat."

If a person truly needs a job, then they do have no leverage, just as if a company truly needs to hire someone would also have no leverage. Of course, that also implies that the person can only get that one single job, which really is not true. Instead, people usually just settle, and never bother to continue to improve their position.

[Toppy]

I remember my first job. It was a local grocery store.

The people who worked there despite having a (small) employee discount couldn't actually buy from where they worked. Why? Minimum wage is what they were paid. No matter how long you worked there, no matter how many jobs and responsibilities they had, they were paid minimum wage or slightly above it. Case and point, my supervisor who had worked there for roughly I think it was 40 or 50 years was making 1 dollar more than I. Even the butchers were paid minimum wage.

When the poor wages were brought up, the answer? "Oh we're a local business". Those who were family to the owners got good wages of course. They also tended to handle things like ordering produce or meats. Which they always over bought and led to large amounts of wasted revenue due to spoiled goods. The town I lived in was a poor town and prided itself on its local businesses. But, those local business all paid minimum wage and had very poor sales. The only ones able to keep those businesses running were people who got jobs at say, McDonalds or Wallgreens where they could go over minimum.

Free market at work.