PVE set bonuses and Mythic+ dungeons

[OrcsRLame]

Why object?

LFR should drop decent gear and I do use it to see the story. Come legion the gear it drops will be where it should have been at in Warlords.

If LFR can drop real tier again so should mythic+ dungeons.

Mythic+ has their own sets. I'd be cool with mythic+ dropping raid tier if raids also drop the dungeon sets and other applicable items like the +10% auto attack ring.

[Charge me Doctor]

It's hard to feel a sense of progression when you're plowing through 3-5 bosses every day on repeat. Unless it takes months to get a dungeon down, it's always going to feel less epic than a raid.

Well that's your problem. Millions of D3 players feel quite epic. And banging your head into a boss for two days straight for sure feels epic kappa

- - - Updated - - -

Easy fix is to allow mythic to drop tier and trinkets. Something like mythic 1-5 drops lfr level tier, 6-9 normal, 10-13 heroic, and 14/15 can drop mythic tier.

Since lfr will be dropping these things anyways people should really have no problem with the aforementioned system.

Nooo, why people ask for homogenization of this game all the fucking time. Let things be different at least for one expansion. "You can do what the fuck you want you'll get same rewards as everyone else". Great.

[LilSaihah]

Mythic dungeons do drop their own sets.

well that makes life way easier for me

[OrcsRLame]

well that makes life way easier for me

Fyi, you can use raid tier and dungeon sets, there's enough gear slots due to raid tier being 6 pieces now. Granted, that won't be optimal for every spec once you factor in legendaries, but the option is there.

When all is said and done, I think mythic+ gear will be more or less equal with mythic raid gear. Lower base ilvl, but far greater volume of gear. Slightly weaker sets, slightly stronger trinkets and some rings/necks with extra stats. If you twisted my arm I'd actually lean towards mythic+ gear being slightly better than mythic raid gear in T19. BiS will certainly mix and match though.

[Allenschezar]

Mythic dungeons do drop their own sets.

Could you give a link to said sets? Didn't see them anywhere. Would be awesome!

[Deleted]

I feel there will be a huge problem if PVE set bonuses are not obtainable from content besides raids.

The problem that will happen is this:

You want to progress through mythic+ dungeons, but it doesn't drop your set or have set bonuses. To do harder mythic+ dungeons, you have to raid for gear with set bonuses.

That isn't right, and completely destroys the "progression" of progressing through mythic+'s by themselves and having it as it's entirely separate 5 man only progression path equally as challenging as mythic raids.

I hope that Blizzard allows set bonuses to come from other content besides raids in Legion because they are always insanely overpowered and strong, or they disable set bonuses from working in mythic+ dungeons entirely.

Raid trinkets might also be a problem, but set bonuses basically like double your damage as a lot of classes. Look at ret's right now, 3 charges of avenging wings? That's insane.

I can't post on the Alpha forums as I do not have access but I hope someone brings this up to Blizzard, because I think it will be a huge oversight and cause problems if people are feeling forced to do raids to progress through mythic+ dungeons.

FOR TIER 19 Mythic+10 is max limit which drops you gear, you do not need tier bonus to reach max Mythic+ for loot. Everything above that is for showing off. Which isn't part of progression anymore.

And again Progression ends the moment you clear max difficulty that grants loot. Clearing Mythic+20 during t19 is not only about gear but about the crazy stuff people do - stack certain specs/classes and so on.

You should be able to clear Mythic+10 without t19 trinkets or setbonuses. If you can't that isn't Blizzards fault.

[ShiyoKozuki]

would rather it if mythic dungeons dropped their own sets

also if the overall power level of tier bonuses were reduced that would be fantastic

This would be nice. Overpowered tier sets are pretty silly. WOD was a disaster when it came to tier sets/class trinkets. Even ignoring the power they gave you over other gear, a shadow priest for example went from a boring as hell rotation to having a decent playable fun rotation with class trinket +4 piece. It became an actual good class with gear, but without that gear it wasn't fun or enjoyable at all. That's really awful for people who don't like to raid, as they're stuck with a watered down shit version of a class.

[Snuffleupagus]

This would be nice. Overpowered tier sets are pretty silly. WOD was a disaster when it came to tier sets/class trinkets. Even ignoring the power they gave you over other gear, a shadow priest for example went from a boring as hell rotation to having a decent playable fun rotation with class trinket +4 piece. It became an actual good class with gear, but without that gear it wasn't fun or enjoyable at all. That's really awful for people who don't like to raid, as they're stuck with a watered down shit version of a class.

WoD is over, stop trying to justify how much you want all the prestige with no effort by bringing up a finishing expansion.

Edit: From all the bullshit in this thread, we can extrapolate the following assumptions.

1. Skilled 5 man only players are apparently extremely rare. The ones who are completing the difficult 5 man content are not pugging and therefore do not invite randoms. Most of the challenge mode runs I did relied on farmed 630ilvl gear before HFC trinkets helped those retarded speed runs. I am far from skilled, so obviously something else is the reason I was able to do Challenge modes and Mythics on full alt groups with no raid gear. Perhaps it is talking to people and forming my own guild group? Nah, couldn't be.

2. 5 man groups aren't as popular as you all are making out, at which point Blizzard (being a business) don't give a shit and won't help you out if it means trivialising the content that they are known for - raids. If 5 man players are so common and worthy of changing part of the game for, you shouldn't be complaining about how few groups are willing to "carry" you through Mythic 5 mans.

3. Everyone playing 5 man content only apparently has some form of autism and cannot socialise with people in order to form their own group. Keep in mind that the common theme I see in these arguments is that forming a raid or group takes no effort - this is clearly not the case if you can't do it yourself.

No-one will deny WoD was terrible for Tier. Even raiders will freely admit that the set bonuses were a band-aid for poor class design. But this discussion isn't about WoD. It's about Legion. Until you stop talking about WoD tier and acknowledge how much less power Legion tier confers on a player, it's fair to assume that your motives are nowhere near as pure as you make out.

Since Tier now drops from LFR, which has very little time associated with it compared to a normal raid, and also considering Tier can war/titanforge in LFR all the way to the cap of 895, Mythic+ not dropping Tier is not even remotely an issue unless you are extremely impatient, unskilled, or just plain lazy.

As plenty of people have pointed out: Mythic+10 is not hard to do, and people are doing it on the beta in non-tier gear.

[OrcsRLame]

Could you give a link to said sets? Didn't see them anywhere. Would be awesome!

Here's a few examples. Wowhead doesn't have everything, but the in game dungeon journal does on live right now, so you can go check out what's available for your class/spec. It's all Court of Stars and Arcway gear.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=134503/i...onus=1552:1727
http://www.wowhead.com/item=137419/c...onus=1552:3412
http://www.wowhead.com/item=134529/c...onus=1552:3412

In addition to the sets, there's also some rings and necks that just have more stats than equivalent items, which will make them BiS until similar/better items are added to the game.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=134526/g...onus=1552:3412
http://www.wowhead.com/item=134488/s...onus=1552:3412

Honorable mention to the most horrendously OP trinket I've seen in awhile.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=133642/h...onus=1552:3412

Obviously any item can go up to 895 during Emerald Nightmare, and 920 during Nighthold. The 895/920 versions of many of these items will be BiS for a lot of specs. I imagine healers will lose their shit over the 5% increased resource neck.

As I said in an earlier post, raids in general have better sets, but dungeons have better trinkets and some individual OP items that have no equivalent in raiding.

[Rehok]

This. It will let the special snowflakes who raid keep their special snowflake sets, and those of us who don't raid will still get the benefit of having set bonuses. I don't care if they're just flat +stat bonuses or something, it'd just be nice to have actual sets that I don't have to put up with 19 other people to get.

Yet LFR has the tier sets in it so you can do LFR Each week and pray to RNG Gods to get LFR titan forged 895 or whatever loot

[Tharkkun]

Difficulty of gathering the group doesn't reflect difficulty of challenge. Yes, it's easier to find 4 other good players, but it doesn't mean that mythic+ content is easier than raid content.

It will always be easier because coordinating with 5 people versus 20 is easier. It's same age old argument of 10 versus 25.

[Charge me Doctor]

It will always be easier because coordinating with 5 people versus 20 is easier. It's same age old argument of 10 versus 25.

And it always will have less room for a mistake. It won't be easier, unless balanced this way - to be easier. Having less people in a room doesn't make content easier all of the sudden

[Tharkkun]

And it always will have less room for a mistake. It won't be easier, unless balanced this way - to be easier. Having less people in a room doesn't make content easier all of the sudden

It goes both ways. Your margin for success increases when you don't rely on 20 people performing at a high level. You only need to find 5 people. Communication, target switching, etc all becomes easier.

[Krom2040]

It will always be easier because coordinating with 5 people versus 20 is easier. It's same age old argument of 10 versus 25.

I guess I'm not surprised to see this nonsense argument pop up.

By this logic, single player games are all incredibly easy. Anybody who has played Dark Souls or the higher tiers of Serious Sam or seen some of the insane custom Mario Brothers levels out there can obviously see that this is not the case.

The difficulty of gameplay is entirely up to the imagination of the designer. Content must be designed appropriately for the number of players involved. While it is generally true in a basic sense that having more players involved will probably involve more stuff going on on the screen, it doesn't make anything inherently more difficult. Many raid encounters only have two or three things that any given player needs to pay attention to at any given time, whereas it's very easy to have a single player gameplay scenario where one player has to focus on ten different variables at once.

The only thing that is inherently more difficult about dealing with 25 players over 5 player is the social logistics of getting that many people together at the same time and keeping them all from getting bored.

[Snuffleupagus]

I guess I'm not surprised to see this nonsense argument pop up.

By this logic, single player games are all incredibly easy. Anybody who has played Dark Souls or the higher tiers of Serious Sam or seen some of the insane custom Mario Brothers levels out there can obviously see that this is not the case.

The difficulty of gameplay is entirely up to the imagination of the designer. Content must be designed appropriately for the number of players involved. While it is generally true in a basic sense that having more players involved will probably involve more stuff going on on the screen, it doesn't make anything inherently more difficult. Many raid encounters only have two or three things that any given player needs to pay attention to at any given time, whereas it's very easy to have a single player gameplay scenario where one player has to focus on ten different variables at once.

The only thing that is inherently more difficult about dealing with 25 players over 5 player is the social logistics of getting that many people together at the same time and keeping them all from getting bored.

Blizzard intentionally tunes things the way they do to suit their vision of the game. WoW is effectively a high tech Dungeons and Dragons game, with typical fantasy roles (the trinity). For Legion, they've conceded that 5 mans have been lacking since BC and have added in Mythic+. This is not raid content and will not get you raid gear.

They don't make things Dark Souls level of hard because that is not their market. Old school DnD games have a simple charm for being relatively relaxing and light hearted affairs (for the most part). Blizzard wanted to have the epic feeling of a warband/raid attacking a castle, but 40/25/20/10/5 platers required to coordinate for Dark Souls level content would not fit their vision of WoW.

Underneath all the corporate greed, there is a vision for WoW, and if players don't like it... they need to leave. For their own good. Some of the stuff I see on this forum legit feels like reading the journal of a crack addict.

Gaming is supposed to be an enjoyable break from real life. If you don't enjoy a game, the reasonable thing to do is find a game you DO enjoy and play that instead.

Edit: needless to say, that may not be entirely directed at you. Pre-coffee rants and all.

Edit 2: Jesus H Christ this is a mess. I'll down a gallon of coffee and seperate this abortion of a post out later today into the seperate things I was meant to say instead of fusing them into... this thing.

[Krom2040]

Blizzard intentionally tunes things the way they do to suit their vision of the game. WoW is effectively a high tech Dungeons and Dragons game, with typical fantasy roles (the trinity). For Legion, they've conceded that 5 mans have been lacking since BC and have added in Mythic+. This is not raid content and will not get you raid gear.

They don't make things Dark Souls level of hard because that is not their market. Old school DnD games have a simple charm for being relatively relaxing and light hearted affairs (for the most part). Blizzard wanted to have the epic feeling of a warband/raid attacking a castle, but 40/25/20/10/5 platers required to coordinate for Dark Souls level content would not fit their vision of WoW.

Underneath all the corporate greed, there is a vision for WoW, and if players don't like it... they need to leave. For their own good. Some of the stuff I see on this forum legit feels like reading the journal of a crack addict.

Gaming is supposed to be an enjoyable break from real life. If you don't enjoy a game, the reasonable thing to do is find a game you DO enjoy and play that instead.

This doesn't seem to be related to what I was saying. I was just refuting the claim that "more people = more difficult". I didn't claim that everything or most things in the game should be as brutal as Dark Souls.

Aside from that, it's not clear to me exactly what point you are trying to make. Obviously, yes, it is a game and should be enjoyable. Part of making it enjoyable is doing what Blizzard games always attempt to do, which is to offer something fun for casual players and for hardcore players. This is the reason why raids have LFR, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic.

It's not evident in your post why you think this does not or should not apply to 5-man content. I mean, honestly, your post is kind of a rambling mess. As best I can tell, the primary thrust of it is "Blizzard wants this game to be about raiding, and therefore you shouldn't get tier items from dungeons", except nothing else in your post supports that assertion, and Blizzard has certainly never stated that that's the purpose of the game. In fact they have a great deal of content in the game that is designed to be done entirely solo. If your point is inferring that the hardest, most rewarding content has traditionally been raid content, then that is probably true, but in that case you would have to defend whether that's the best approach and whether it should continue to be that way.

Really though, I shouldn't have to make your point for you.

[Snuffleupagus]

This doesn't seem to be related to what I was saying. I was just refuting the claim that "more people = more difficult". I didn't claim that everything or most things in the game should be as brutal as Dark Souls.

Aside from that, it's not clear to me exactly what point you are trying to make. Obviously, yes, it is a game and should be enjoyable. Part of making it enjoyable is doing what Blizzard games always attempt to do, which is to offer something fun for casual players and for hardcore players. This is the reason why raids have LFR, Normal, Heroic, and Mythic.

It's not evident in your post why you think this does not or should not apply to 5-man content. I mean, honestly, your post is kind of a rambling mess. As best I can tell, the primary thrust of it is "Blizzard wants this game to be about raiding, and therefore you shouldn't get tier items from dungeons", except nothing else in your post supports that assertion, and Blizzard has certainly never stated that that's the purpose of the game. In fact they have a great deal of content in the game that is designed to be done entirely solo. If your point is inferring that the hardest, most rewarding content has traditionally been raid content, then that is probably true, but in that case you would have to defend whether that's the best approach and whether it should continue to be that way.

Really though, I shouldn't have to make your point for you.

Let's do this again with coffee.

Your point that Single Player does not equal easy is not refutable, and the Dark Souls example is a good one. But... WoW is not Dark Souls, so I'm unsure why it's relevant to the discussion.

Further to that, the social logistics are the hardest part of raiding, but an intrinsic part of the game - so why are you so quick to dismiss it? Blizzard has gone for an epic feel, and despite their claims of making the game single player friendly for levelling, people overwhelmingly panned their attempts to make WoD single player friendly past this because the designers can't reconcile single player and epic Dungeons and Dragons style gameplay. WoW is NOT a single player game or intended for small groups (Blizzard already has a game for this - Diablo).

The point here is that the game is about the epic open world, and 5 man content doesn't cut it unless you can see them making 8-12 boss 5 mans with the same gear rewards. This would obviously kill raiding, but a lot of the fame WoW has to the outside world is guilds and raiding.

If people want to do 5 mans, there are plenty of game out there with this as their core gameplay - why not just play those? In the end, WoW is a video game and if it doesn't meet your entertainment requirements then you shouldn't be playing.

[Tharkkun]

I guess I'm not surprised to see this nonsense argument pop up.

By this logic, single player games are all incredibly easy. Anybody who has played Dark Souls or the higher tiers of Serious Sam or seen some of the insane custom Mario Brothers levels out there can obviously see that this is not the case.

The difficulty of gameplay is entirely up to the imagination of the designer. Content must be designed appropriately for the number of players involved. While it is generally true in a basic sense that having more players involved will probably involve more stuff going on on the screen, it doesn't make anything inherently more difficult. Many raid encounters only have two or three things that any given player needs to pay attention to at any given time, whereas it's very easy to have a single player gameplay scenario where one player has to focus on ten different variables at once.

The only thing that is inherently more difficult about dealing with 25 players over 5 player is the social logistics of getting that many people together at the same time and keeping them all from getting bored.

Dark Souls is wicked hard because that's what they want. They design it to punish people so they are frustrated. That's the exact opposite of Blizzard's game design. Dark Souls doesn't add weekly nerfs by allowing you to acquire gear to make you more powerful and nerf content. That's a Blizzard or MMO design.

Logistics plays a much bigger role than anything in raiding. That's why people are still bitter over losing 10 man raids. The same goes for 5 mans. It's far easier to get 5 people on the same page doing it right than 20. That makes it easier.

It's like the Olympics. You don't get to bring 20 teammates for each event in hopes that the ones who don't perform consistently at a high level have a great day. You bring half a dozen of your best, most consistent performers.

Since we're not Olympic athletes inside WoW Blizzard doesn't tune it that way.