PVE set bonuses and Mythic+ dungeons

[Onikaroshi]

I honesty think what they'll do is just disable raid set bonus' in mythic+ like they do in CM

[Wootmonkey]

Would actually be really nice if mythic+ gets a separate set entirely with different set bonuses.

Assuming they are good bonuses and not like the current LFR sets I think this is the ideal solution.

[DesMephisto]

That seems to go against the entire design intention of mythic+ dungeons.

How does it? Do you know what min maxing is? It was obvious that raiders would have an advantage over casuals/dungeon players.

[gallamann]

As a Heroic Raider who clears HFC weekly, come down on the side of the Mythic+ Dungeons having "raid" tier sets and trinkets.

What many fail to mention is that those tier sets often address weaknesses in a given spec and thereby make that spec play competitively in a given tier. They quite literally prop up several specs in HFC, without them you would play another spec/class.

Then you have trinkets, we will see if they ever do Class trinkets again. Those alter your rotation because the damage boost to do so rewards you handsomely.

After the class trinket you have trinkets that are just god damn ridiculous atm, you can play flawless on a pull and be destroyed by someone because their trinket just rolled the procs. It's not uncommon to see agility users have 33%+ of their damage from a trinket proc'ing!

Further, take a look at Mythic Dungeon loot in WoD, absolute RNG in that on any given pull an armor piece can drop with entirely different secondaries. Compare that to raid loot, you know exactly which boss you need to kill to get that armor drop with your preferred secondaries. It sucks ass to get a 725 drop in WoD Mythic Dungeon and have both the secondaries be useless to your spec (the 4-10 ilevel gain won't offset the secondary loss), not to mention it took probably 70+ boss kills to see that one 725 piece.

Raiders should be all for Mythic Dungeons dropping tier/trinkets, it offers another means to get gear without paying some form of currency in raid to be awarded that gear. Which means you could in theory move up the "next item is mine" list in the raid.

It would also increase the pool of players to pull from to keep a viable raid roster. Also allows people to gear up alts, which has two benefits. Not carrying alts in raids, allows a person to swap to an alt for raid balance.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Being a raider doesn't equate to being a better player; you have the facilities available to raid.

[nazrakin]

This does provide complimentary content for raiders, but it's not "the entire point of designing it that way", it's merely a side effect. As I said, if it didn't provide complimentary content for raiders, nobody would care, it'd have been fine.

The person you responded to is absolutely right that the feature is mainly for non-raiders. I get that you disagree with this, you are wrong. The reason that feature appeared at all is because non-raiders had few things to do, I don't know how many times I should say that.

I'm not sure how I can be "wrong" when I'm simply restating the intent of the people who are actually developing the feature. And yes, I'll keep repeating that because that is what we know about their design goals with the feature -- these ideas that "nobody would care" if raiders used it and it being "mainly for" non raiders is not knowledge, that is strictly your opinion.

[Krom2040]

I haven't been in a guild since BRF, but I've stilled pugged through Heroic Archimonde and a few Mythic bosses.

I *hate* pugging. Relying deeply on the skill and knowledge of a whole bunch of other random people who change between every run is just about the most frustrating gaming experience I can imagine. You can do everything perfectly, and it'll improve your chance of success by maybe 5%. It just sucks.

But every "serious" guild on my realm seems to be either defunct or wants to push these grueling four hour raid session ordeals that I also have no interest in doing on a regular basis. So raiding seems to be out as well.

I'm really hoping that they don't structure this stuff in such a way that it's not just a free loot bonus to people in raid gear and a miserable slog for people without it. I generally like WoW, but I'm sick to death of how it's perpetually coddled people who have a schedule that permits raiding.

[Wildmoon]

The difference is, in one case you get a small early advantage and then never have to touch non-raid content (unless Blizz does something idiotic like 6.2.3 valor updates) and in the other case raiding would be your main activity through which you get the vast majority of your gear and you'd simply do Mythic+ as a sidegame. The question though really is, is this desirable for the community at large.
And sorry, doing Mythic raiding is not "extra effort". The extra effort Mythic raiders are expected to do is get some crafted gear and maybe farm a specific piece from other content (first raid doesn't really count; everyone has to get starting gear somehow) for the first 2-3 weeks. Now World First guilds may require split raids and that is significant extra effort but in that case you are doing more raiding to benefit raiding, not e.g. LFR. Saying that in order to do Mythic+ dungeons you need to be a full time Mythic raider is "extra effort" is not comparable. It's like saying that in order to do mythic raiding you need to collect 27k conquest points at a rating over 2,1k is "extra effort" and that is OK and should be accepted.

I will just have to repeat what I have already said. Mythic+ is not supposed to be isolated form of content. Mythic+'s rewards will be valuable because it will make you stronger in PvE aspect in general just like how raids's rewards will be valuable. If you separate them all then you will eventually have something like questing,dungeons,raids which are all self-contained content and in turn encourage people to choose their own path thus indirectly limiting the content.

The merit of PvE is to acquire better gears to get tackle on tougher challenge. That's why the old CM didn't work. It devalued progression aspect. Limiting the effectiveness of gears in PvE content will do nothing but harm. Just imagine if gears you get from other parts of PvE are handicapped in questing content because it will make "people who only do quests" feel bad. There's nothing wrong with people who are willing to do absolutely everything in the game to maximize their characters getting better rewards faster than other people. It's the reward of their commitment.

The better solution is to allow Mythic+ to drop tier pieces at certain level of keystone.

[Puzzony]

I will just have to repeat what I have already said. Mythic+ is not supposed to be isolated from of content. Mythic+'s rewards will be valuable because it will make you stronger in PvE aspect in general just like how raids's rewards will be valuable. If you separate them all then you will eventually have something like questing,dungeons,raids which are all self-contained content and in turn encourage people to choose their own path thus indirectly limiting the content.

The merit of PvE is to acquire better gears to get tackle on tougher challenge. That's why the old CM didn't work. It devalued progression aspect. Limiting the effective of gears in PvE content will do nothing but harm. Just imagine if gears you get from other parts of PvE are handicapped because it will make "people who only do quests" feel bad. There's nothing wrong with people who are willing to do absolutely everything in the game to maximize their characters getting better rewards faster than other people. It's the reward of their commitment.

The better solution is to allow Mythic+ to drop tier pieces at certain level of keystone.

Or just scale the ilvl of the dropped tier pieces with the current dificulty of the Mythic+ dungeon. in MOP LFR having the same sets albeit with lower itemlevel and proc value and stats worked well, it was just removed because the special snowflake Mythic raider superheroes cried for months to get it removed from LFR.

[Wildmoon]

Or just scale the ilvl of the dropped tier pieces with the current dificulty of the Mythic+ dungeon. in MOP LFR having the same sets albeit with lower itemlevel and proc value and stats worked well, it was just removed because the special snowflake Mythic raider superheroes cried for months to get it removed from LFR.

I understand Blizzard's reasoning here. They want tier sets to mean something. LFR is trivially easy, so it does not pass the difficulty check to drop tier pieces just like how normal dungeons don't drop tier pieces.

[Puzzony]

I understand Blizzard's reasoning here. They want tier sets to mean something. LFR is trivially easy, so it does not pass the difficulty check to drop tier pieces just like how normal dungeons don't drop tier pieces.

Yes, WOD's LFR is "ResidentSleeper" difficulty, MOP's was not. The current lfr absolutely makes no sense, and has no purpose, but MOP was not like this.

[ShiyoKozuki]

At this point I think the best solution is to remove set bonues from the game entirely or add them to every form of content, including arena PVP gear.

Let's be honest, pugging normal/heroic raids takes less effort and player skill than high level mythics or high level PVP will ever take, so if they're going to reward set bonuses for piss easy raid difficulties(normal and heroic) they might as well reward it for all other forms of content in the game.

[Deleted]

Legendaries should definitely drop from M+ dungeons. 0.5% drop chance for M+ t1, +0.1% per tier above t1 from the weekly chest.

[Stagga24]

It's an MMO Massively Multiplayer Online. If you want to do all the content and get all the rewards do the Massively Multiplayer portion, it's not even 40 man anymore. So many people want vanilla back bbut hate all things that are anything similar to vanilla lmao. Vanilla you didn't go do 5 man content to get raid gear (there were blue tiers though). You didn't go get to do mission tables or cache's you went to raid. The original game was supposed to be about PvE. lol if you want diablo go play diablo if you want to play an mmo play an mmo. I mean if they give Mythic+ dungeons the same gear i'm pretty indifferent but the whiners saying they deserve it... no you don't you didn't raid you don't "deserve" raid gear. I think if they had set bonuses that helped with different mechanics that address some of the affixes in Mythic+ I.e. tank may have a bonus that helps increase threat on a set ability for the affix that reduces threat. or maybe the volcanic affix will cause a set bonus that will prevent 1 hit per X time to not be able to do more than 75% of your life or something.

[Krom2040]

It's an MMO Massively Multiplayer Online. If you want to do all the content and get all the rewards do the Massively Multiplayer portion, it's not even 40 man anymore. So many people want vanilla back bbut hate all things that are anything similar to vanilla lmao. Vanilla you didn't go do 5 man content to get raid gear (there were blue tiers though). You didn't go get to do mission tables or cache's you went to raid. The original game was supposed to be about PvE. lol if you want diablo go play diablo if you want to play an mmo play an mmo. I mean if they give Mythic+ dungeons the same gear i'm pretty indifferent but the whiners saying they deserve it... no you don't you didn't raid you don't "deserve" raid gear. I think if they had set bonuses that helped with different mechanics that address some of the affixes in Mythic+ I.e. tank may have a bonus that helps increase threat on a set ability for the affix that reduces threat. or maybe the volcanic affix will cause a set bonus that will prevent 1 hit per X time to not be able to do more than 75% of your life or something.

Pretty sure that demanding people do 20+ person content to get any kind of decent gear is the surest way to ensure that sub numbers stay super low. Large raids have always been more about painful logistics than personal contribution.

[Stagga24]

I will just have to repeat what I have already said. Mythic+ is not supposed to be isolated form of content. Mythic+'s rewards will be valuable because it will make you stronger in PvE aspect in general just like how raids's rewards will be valuable. If you separate them all then you will eventually have something like questing,dungeons,raids which are all self-contained content and in turn encourage people to choose their own path thus indirectly limiting the content.

The merit of PvE is to acquire better gears to get tackle on tougher challenge. That's why the old CM didn't work. It devalued progression aspect. Limiting the effectiveness of gears in PvE content will do nothing but harm. Just imagine if gears you get from other parts of PvE are handicapped in questing content because it will make "people who only do quests" feel bad. There's nothing wrong with people who are willing to do absolutely everything in the game to maximize their characters getting better rewards faster than other people. It's the reward of their commitment.

The better solution is to allow Mythic+ to drop tier pieces at certain level of keystone.

You can get better gear without it being tier. Having a seperate set of tier pieces that more closely help with the specifics. just because it may help with a certain affix wouldn't mean it wouldn't directly be viable in other things like both of the previously stated ideas. Just because it isn't tier doesnt mean you aren't gearing up and just because you may not (depending on how far in mythic+ you could get) be as geared doesn't mean you weren't gearing up. I mean if we wanted to blow this up why isn't there a super long quest chain with progressively harder quests till you can hit quests so hard you get tier. or why not we just let you craft a tier with enough enough mats etc.? If you want that reward do that content.

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lmao the data would suggest that the smaller the raids the smaller the subs. I don't really believe that and would say there were other attributing factors but BC we had the 10 and 25mans and it wasn't too bad at all 3 groups of 10 mans coming together to make a 25 man with some extra's for attendance etc. Raids hold guilds together getting to know people and personal relationships and interactions make the game fun. Granted there are other types of guilds out there but it's the per-dominate reason people join guilds other than pvp and "social leveling guild" lol.

- - - Updated - - -

lmao the data would suggest that the smaller the raids the smaller the subs. I don't really believe that and would say there were other attributing factors but BC we had the 10 and 25mans and it wasn't too bad at all 3 groups of 10 mans coming together to make a 25 man with some extra's for attendance etc. Raids hold guilds together getting to know people and personal relationships and interactions make the game fun. Granted there are other types of guilds out there but it's the per-dominate reason people join guilds other than pvp and "social leveling guild" lol.

[Krom2040]

If people like raiding for the fun of it and for the great social aspect, then presumably they won't need a large loot incentive to justify it. Seems like this problem just solved itself.

[Sencha]

If you can get the same gear as raiders in Mythic+ dungeons, then nobody will raid. And WoW will just be a 5-player game.

[rda]

If you can get the same gear as raiders in Mythic+ dungeons, then nobody will raid. And WoW will just be a 5-player game.

Great, that'd mean that raids are a bad feature and that they should stop doing them and do more mythic+ dungeons instead.

[FelPlague]

I feel there will be a huge problem if PVE set bonuses are not obtainable from content besides raids.

The problem that will happen is this:

You want to progress through mythic+ dungeons, but it doesn't drop your set or have set bonuses. To do harder mythic+ dungeons, you have to raid for gear with set bonuses.

That isn't right, and completely destroys the "progression" of progressing through mythic+'s by themselves and having it as it's entirely separate 5 man only progression path equally as challenging as mythic raids.

I hope that Blizzard allows set bonuses to come from other content besides raids in Legion because they are always insanely overpowered and strong, or they disable set bonuses from working in mythic+ dungeons entirely.

Raid trinkets might also be a problem, but set bonuses basically like double your damage as a lot of classes. Look at ret's right now, 3 charges of avenging wings? That's insane.

I can't post on the Alpha forums as I do not have access but I hope someone brings this up to Blizzard, because I think it will be a huge oversight and cause problems if people are feeling forced to do raids to progress through mythic+ dungeons.

there is 2 sets we have confirmed so far

1. raiding sets, that come from raiding
2. world sets, these sets will give massive bonuses for out in the world, but these bonuses will only work out in the world, and will be obtained from doing world quests