[SPOILER-ish] Isn't Legions plan... flawed?

[Kokolums]

There's a hole in the lore where we don't exactly know the mechanics of Void Lord manifestation the way Sargeras understands it. All we know is Sargeras has come to the conclusion that wiping all life from the universe and reordering it in a different way from the start will fix the problem. If I had to guess, flesh is the problem. The fact that stone and metal can turn into flesh is another problem. So maybe he will rebuild the universe without stone and metal?

[Qualia]

There's a hole in the lore where we don't exactly know the mechanics of Void Lord manifestation the way Sargeras understands it. All we know is Sargeras has come to the conclusion that wiping all life from the universe and reordering it in a different way from the start will fix the problem. If I had to guess, flesh is the problem. The fact that stone and metal can turn into flesh is another problem. So maybe he will rebuild the universe without stone and metal?

He doesn't want to reorder all life in the universe. He is destroying all life and *HOPE* that eventually life will appear again, since it bloomed from nothing before. And if not, to him, even a lifeless universe is still better than one dominated by the Void Lords.

[steelballfc]

But how would it have been better for Arthas? Let's assume the canon version was a 25 man raid. So Ther you are, Lich King, you have limitless zombies, vampires, evil scientists creating humongous fleshbeasts, a fukin bone dragon. Now your brilliant plan is to let the heroes murder all of these. Every single one of them. Just so you can raise 25 kinda strong guys. So now your army of endless minions got reduced to 25 plus some random zombies. Why? Why would you do that?

because he had so much free time

[Qualia]

But how would it have been better for Arthas? Let's assume the canon version was a 25 man raid. So Ther you are, Lich King, you have limitless zombies, vampires, evil scientists creating humongous fleshbeasts, a fukin bone dragon. Now your brilliant plan is to let the heroes murder all of these. Every single one of them. Just so you can raise 25 kinda strong guys. So now your army of endless minions got reduced to 25 plus some random zombies. Why? Why would you do that?

Canon version doesn't have a fixed size. We just have 10 / 25M raid because obviously most computers (or connections, if you are playing from Asia) wouldn't be able to handle a bigger sized raid. It's usually described as an army or a group, so it could be any number. It might be as small as 10, it could also be as many as a hundred or more.

Also, I'm pretty sure he (the Lich King) still had an army capable of consuming everything on Azeroth if he stopped controlling them (at least back then) so lore-wise, he didn't lose that much. Sure, he'd lost some lieutenants, but if everything went as planned, he'd gain more powerful lieutenants (while crippling the enemy force) anyway. Most of his minions are created so it won't take much time to raise more corpses.

[huth]

But how would it have been better for Arthas? Let's assume the canon version was a 25 man raid. So Ther you are, Lich King, you have limitless zombies, vampires, evil scientists creating humongous fleshbeasts, a fukin bone dragon. Now your brilliant plan is to let the heroes murder all of these. Every single one of them. Just so you can raise 25 kinda strong guys. So now your army of endless minions got reduced to 25 plus some random zombies. Why? Why would you do that?

In Arthas case? Because he can just tell them to stop slacking and get back to work. The losses are effectively irrelevant because they aren't permanent. This isn't like a human army where every loss has to be replaced by a new guy, they only stay dead until Arthas or some other Necromancer can be arsed to put them back together, unless you go well out of your way to ensure they stay dead.

[Aquamonkey]

We haven't killed any Old Gods. We've defeated some yes, but killed? Absolutely not.

Unless you count us destroying the remnants of Y'Shaarj as killing an Old God, and even then we've only ''killed'' 1.

C'Thun was fully awake and free.

Worse, C'Thun has awakened, freed itself, and reemerged from the planet's depths. (WC Encyclopedia)

We did kill C'Thun. This is stated in the quest. "Even in death you can feel the legacy of C'Thun's evil around you." The plot of the comics was Cho'gall trying to resurrect it.

Yogg had broken through all but the last of its restraints.

This ancient horror has corrupted its guards, and now it is breaking through the last of its restraints. Faced with the peril of Yogg-Saron's imminent freedom, a band of mortals has made preparations for a sweeping assault on the city. (Game Guide)

We killed Yogg as well. Yogg says it's gonna die and is salty about it. "Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and ALL who inhabit this miserable little seedling. The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity."

[Dequanacus]

The guy asked why there hasn't been any calamity even with two Old Gods *dead* and Blizzard answered that Cataclysm happened because of them, did you miss that somehow? :P

I made explicitly clear in the post you're quoting that he used the words "dealt with" and not dead. I'm not sure how I can be clearer. If you want to point out where the word "dead" is used. Please assist me. Here is the quote I was replying to again.

Q: ... if you have any theory about what the name for the next Old God would be, and elaborate a little upon the theory... a while ago, you asserted the theory that if the Old Gods were dealt with, that's doomsday and Azeroth would cease to be because of some catastrophic event. But so far, with two down, we're not really seeing much calamity happening.

[Kallisto]

I made explicitly clear in the post you're quoting that he used the words "dealt with" and not dead. I'm not sure how I can be clearer.

They're dead. One proof is Cho'gall trying to resurrect C'thun. You can not resurrect something that is not dead.

Yogg himself says he's about to die too.

The only old god left on Azeroth is N'zoth. That's it, none others.

[Ersula]

So, basically, we killed 3 Old Gods, and, we are most likely going to kill N'zoth in Legion, and that way we'll cure Azeroth of all Old Gods. If we are doing just that, then why would the Legion want to destroy us? They only go for Old God infected planets, and, we'll basically cure the planet from the corruption.

Where did you get that from? As far as we know, the Old Gods are an Azeroth only thing. & Sargeras' goal is to kill all the titans, and Azeroth is an embreyonic titan, (as specified in Chronicles)

[Ringthane]

But how would it have been better for Arthas? Let's assume the canon version was a 25 man raid. So Ther you are, Lich King, you have limitless zombies, vampires, evil scientists creating humongous fleshbeasts, a fukin bone dragon. Now your brilliant plan is to let the heroes murder all of these. Every single one of them. Just so you can raise 25 kinda strong guys. So now your army of endless minions got reduced to 25 plus some random zombies. Why? Why would you do that?

Because those limitless zombies, vampires, evil scientists, and so on, are cannon fodder. You just send them into battle to destroy. The 25 strong guys are the generals, the ones you want in command. They have the power, the strength, the intelligence, to fight the battles and beat the enemies that are too smart for the limitless cannon fodder.

This is basic military strategy.

[Dequanacus]

They're dead. One proof is Cho'gall trying to resurrect C'thun. You can not resurrect something that is not dead.

Yogg himself says he's about to die too.

The only old god left on Azeroth is N'zoth. That's it, none others.

Sure. I asked about the quote however. I have been told several times that the quote made explicitly clear that they are dead. If I am to use the quote as evidence, I need to understand why people think that.

[Aquamonkey]

Sure. I asked about the quote however. I have been told several times that the quote made explicitly clear that they are dead. If I am to use the quote as evidence, I need to understand why people think that.

Because "dealt with" only has one meaning in this context and the question says "with two down" (Metzen understood the question as "as we put down Old Gods is there some greater calamity..."). It has only ever been said that killing OGs would cause damage to Azeroth. Putting them in prisons (or back in their prisons) would have no such negative effect, which is why the titans had them imprisoned in the first place.

[Dequanacus]

Because "dealt with" only has one meaning in this context and the question says "with two down" (Metzen understood the question as "as we put down Old Gods is there some greater calamity..."). It has only ever been said that killing OGs would cause damage to Azeroth. Putting them in prisons (or back in their prisons) would have no such negative effect, which is why the titans had them imprisoned in the first place.

The old gods were imprisoned and their power was suppressed for thousands(?) of years. Enough of their power seeped out that they could manifest a portion of their power physically and act out once more. We dealt with this by taking these two shells down although in doing so, their corruption leaked out and damaged Azeroth.

When the popular fan canon during years prior to chronicle was that the old gods were only capable of pushing out a small amount of their power made physical. The quote does not seem to challenge this line of thinking as we did in fact deal with what was assumed to be a small portion of the old gods power. While newer canon may challenge that idea, the quote itself, especially at the time it was made, does not seem to counter that on its own.

[Night Wind]

The old gods were imprisoned and their power was suppressed for thousands(?) of years. Enough of their power seeped out that they could manifest a portion of their power physically and act out once more. We dealt with this by taking these two shells down although in doing so, their corruption leaked out and damaged Azeroth.

When the popular fan canon during years prior to chronicle was that the old gods were only capable of pushing out a small amount of their power made physical. The quote does not seem to challenge this line of thinking as we did in fact deal with what was assumed to be a small portion of the old gods power. While newer canon may challenge that idea, the quote itself, especially at the time it was made, does not seem to counter that on its own.

Yogg was still breaking through the last of his restraints when the players killed him. Yogg wasnt at full power. C'thun was completely free but still wasn't at full strength. I still don't think we have seen the full effect of "the legacy of C'thun's evil" and " the shadow of Yogg-saron's corpse".

[Kallisto]

When the popular fan canon during years prior to chronicle was that the old gods were only capable of pushing out a small amount of their power made physical.

And here lies the problem. A fan canon that held no water outside the ramblings of the Old Gods most devout worshippers in game (Which should always be taken with grain of salt.) being held as true canon when there was no real blizzard based evidence to back it up.

[Deleted]

C'Thun was fully awake and free.

Worse, C'Thun has awakened, freed itself, and reemerged from the planet's depths. (WC Encyclopedia)

We did kill C'Thun. This is stated in the quest. "Even in death you can feel the legacy of C'Thun's evil around you." The plot of the comics was Cho'gall trying to resurrect it.

Yogg had broken through all but the last of its restraints.

This ancient horror has corrupted its guards, and now it is breaking through the last of its restraints. Faced with the peril of Yogg-Saron's imminent freedom, a band of mortals has made preparations for a sweeping assault on the city. (Game Guide)

We killed Yogg as well. Yogg says it's gonna die and is salty about it. "Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and ALL who inhabit this miserable little seedling. The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity."

Huh, I stand corrected, how about that.

I always thought we knocked them unconcious or something similar because we haven't seen the consequences of us killing the two, with Y'Shaarj there were the Sha, with the others? Nothing that I'm aware of.

[Qualia]

Huh, I stand corrected, how about that.

I always thought we knocked them unconcious or something similar because we haven't seen the consequences of us killing the two, with Y'Shaarj there were the Sha, with the others? Nothing that I'm aware of.

We have :P In Q&A panel of Blizzcon 2010, someone asked the same thing - why we haven't seen any calamity happened even with two of them down, and Metzen & Afrasiabi said they caused the Cataclysm as a result. Probably (especially given the pre-release event happening way before Deathwing bursted back to Azeroth) weakened the world too much to make Deathwing able to cause the Cataclysm.

A world shattering threat that took Thrall to focus all his mind together with other shamans / druids to heal the world is pretty serious, if you ask me.

The old gods were imprisoned and their power was suppressed for thousands(?) of years. Enough of their power seeped out that they could manifest a portion of their power physically and act out once more. We dealt with this by taking these two shells down although in doing so, their corruption leaked out and damaged Azeroth.

We didn't fight them outside of their prison, though. We went into their prisons and killed them. They aren't imprisoned in a separate dimension like some fans liked to think. That argument might be valid if we fought them outside of their prisons (AQ / Ulduar), but alas, that wasn't the case.

Plus, as Aquamonkey said, the theory has always been that if we kill the Old Gods, Azeroth is doomed - as stated in the Tribunal of Ages (IIRC). However, even now, that is in question since Chronicle established that the Tribunal of Ages were created by Loken to hide his sin, and then further corrupted when he attempted to replace the original records. The guy asked about the theory, and specifically mentioned that the Old Gods "were dealt" with and "down" - that should be quite clear what he meant.

There were plenty of fanons earlier on about how powerful the Old Gods were, mainly due to the fact that there wasn't much official information about them. We only got some information from their followers that C'Thun defeated a Titan, or that they can't die and such. However, fanon is just fanon and Blizzard didn't choose to go that way (probably realized that it wouldn't make sense for us to kill one OG every other expansions if they were that powerful). In fact, Blizzard even "buffed" the Old Gods a bit in Chronicle, since pre-Chronicle, Y'Shaarj were supposed to be killed by the Mogu and Ra-den - both were defeated by us.

[Deleted]

We have :P In Q&A panel of Blizzcon 2010, someone asked the same thing - why we haven't seen any calamity happened even with two of them down, and Metzen & Afrasiabi said they caused the Cataclysm as a result. Probably (especially given the pre-release event happening way before Deathwing bursted back to Azeroth) weakened the world too much to make Deathwing able to cause the Cataclysm.

Oh, they caused that?

Huh.

Always thought it was Deathwing.

That's pretty neat.

[Maculo]

So, basically, we killed 3 Old Gods, and, we are most likely going to kill N'zoth in Legion, and that way we'll cure Azeroth of all Old Gods. If we are doing just that, then why would the Legion want to destroy us? They only go for Old God infected planets, and, we'll basically cure the planet from the corruption.

The way I understood it is that the Void Lords can just send more old gods. Even if we kill the original four on Azeroth, there are plenty more all over the universe. So far, at least four old gods have found Azeroth, and technically more could find Azeroth.

[huth]

Oh, they caused that?

Huh.

Always thought it was Deathwing.

That's pretty neat.

It was. They just weakened it enough so he could pull it off, and DW capitalised on that opportunity.

Still, the fact remains that the only Old God that we definitely know is dead is Y'Shaarj.

"Dealt with" can be taken to mean "killed", but it isn't definitive. A threat is dealt with when it no longer presents any direct issues, which CT and YS currently do not. Whether that is because they are dead, or because they're otherwise incapacitated, isn't elaborated.
We have no reason to believe anything either of them told us without outside verification. They would certainly want us to think they are dead, though, so they can act without our interference.

If anything, that Blizz used the ambiguous "dealt with" instead of something more explicit is grounds to consider other possibilities.

- - - Updated - - -

Where did you get that from? As far as we know, the Old Gods are an Azeroth only thing. & Sargeras' goal is to kill all the titans, and Azeroth is an embreyonic titan, (as specified in Chronicles)

As far as we know, the Old Gods are all over the universe, and Sargeras' goal is to prevent the Void Lords from ever manifesting in the material realm.

The former we have known for years, the latter we learned from the Chronicle. Killing all titans has in fact never been his goal, just an unavoidable collateral.

Not sure where you got your "knowledge" from, but it's all wrong.