[SPOILER-ish] Isn't Legions plan... flawed?

[Qualia]

"Dealt with" can be taken to mean "killed", but it isn't definitive. A threat is dealt with when it no longer presents any direct issues, which CT and YS currently do not. Whether that is because they are dead, or because they're otherwise incapacitated, isn't elaborated.
We have no reason to believe anything either of them told us without outside verification. They would certainly want us to think they are dead, though, so they can act without our interference.

If anything, that Blizzard used the ambiguous "dealt with" instead of something more explicit is grounds to consider other possibilities.

The person in that interview were asking about the theory of the Old Gods, though. That theory (as we can see in the Tribunals) was always that if the Old Gods are killed, then Azeroth is doomed. It wasn't "if the Old Gods are incapacitated / put back in their prison, Azeroth is doomed".

If people need even more proof from Blizzard, then there is this too http://www.hellocomic.com/world-of-warcraft/c16/p20 . First narration panel, talked from an omniscience perspective instead of character's perspective (so no character being misled here), was "The Old God, C'Thun, who once lay beneath the ancient ruin, is dead".

(Also, off topic, but I'm curious since I'm not used to comics, why do comics usually have some texts bolded? Is that only supposed to put emphasis on the words / name?)

[Sartorius 01]

we have.

OT: sargeras thinks the world soul is already corrupted, + he wants to recreate the universe without "the flaw" aka void lords.
he gotta destroy the current one for that.

we have imprisoned them , not killed them. Otherwise we would face a chaos worse than keeping them alive.

[IgnisVenom]

The way I understood it is that the Void Lords can just send more old gods. Even if we kill the original four on Azeroth, there are plenty more all over the universe. So far, at least four old gods have found Azeroth, and technically more could find Azeroth.

tbh I think the reason why Old Gods succeed at corrupting the planets is because those planets are, well, young when they do that. When Old Gods corrupted Azeroth, only Elements were there to stop them.

- - - Updated - - -

we have imprisoned them , not killed them. Otherwise we would face a chaos worse than keeping them alive.

Mate, please read at least a bit of what was written on the last few pages.

[huth]

(Also, off topic, but I'm curious since I'm not used to comics, why do comics usually have some texts bolded? Is that only supposed to put emphasis on the words / name?)

Due to how they are written, that's pretty much the only way to emphasize anything. Italics aren't always obvious, and everything is upper case anyway.

That aside, there's the little fact that they actually had to clarify that Y'Shaarj is dead dead, not just sort of dead. They also often don't quite answer the question that was asked, and nobody said that nothing will happen if they are merely incapacitated. I certainly don't think it would be good form, but it is still within the realm of possibility for Blizzard to bring them back.

[Dequanacus]

And here lies the problem. A fan canon that held no water outside the ramblings of the Old Gods most devout worshippers in game (Which should always be taken with grain of salt.) being held as true canon when there was no real blizzard based evidence to back it up.

Actually, that is completely irrelevant to the post you're replying to. I'm only challenging the blizzard quote as being useless in regards to challenging the fan canon. Reading comprehension please.

We didn't fight them outside of their prison, though. We went into their prisons and killed them. They aren't imprisoned in a separate dimension like some fans liked to think. That argument might be valid if we fought them outside of their prisons (AQ / Ulduar), but alas, that wasn't the case.

Plus, as Aquamonkey said, the theory has always been that if we kill the Old Gods, Azeroth is doomed - as stated in the Tribunal of Ages (IIRC). However, even now, that is in question since Chronicle established that the Tribunal of Ages were created by Loken to hide his sin, and then further corrupted when he attempted to replace the original records. The guy asked about the theory, and specifically mentioned that the Old Gods "were dealt" with and "down" - that should be quite clear what he meant.

There were plenty of fanons earlier on about how powerful the Old Gods were, mainly due to the fact that there wasn't much official information about them. We only got some information from their followers that C'Thun defeated a Titan, or that they can't die and such. However, fanon is just fanon and Blizzard didn't choose to go that way (probably realized that it wouldn't make sense for us to kill one OG every other expansions if they were that powerful). In fact, Blizzard even "buffed" the Old Gods a bit in Chronicle, since pre-Chronicle, Y'Shaarj were supposed to be killed by the Mogu and Ra-den - both were defeated by us.

Like I said, I don't give a shit about the Chronicle. I've made clear multiple times that I'm not trying to prove the fanon as true. I'm only asking how the quote on its own challenges the line of the thinking as many people said that the quote, without the information that has only been made clear by the Chronicle, challenges the fanon. The post you replied to explains why 'dealt with' can be interpreted while still holding on to the notion that they are not dead. Please read a comment before replying to it.

[Kallisto]

Actually, that is completely irrelevant to the post you're replying to. I'm only challenging the blizzard quote as being useless in regards to challenging the fan canon. Reading comprehension please.



Like I said, I don't give a shit about the Chronicle. I've made clear multiple times that I'm not trying to prove the fanon as true. I'm only asking how the quote on its own challenges the line of the thinking as many people said that the quote, without the information that has only been made clear by the Chronicle, challenges the fanon. The post you replied to explains why 'dealt with' can be interpreted while still holding on to the notion that they are not dead. Please read a comment before replying to it.

Then you're not going to get the answer you seek because you have already dismissed every single logical answer given to you. In war when charged to take out a threat it is to kill it. And the other quote was that in one sentence. "People with their fan canon have their heads so much up their asses that they will outright deny anything bliz says that denies it."

[Dequanacus]

Then you're not going to get the answer you seek because you have already dismissed every single logical answer given to you. In war when charged to take out a threat it is to kill it. And the other quote was that in one sentence. "People with their fan canon have their heads so much up their asses that they will outright deny anything bliz says that denies it."

When you respond to a post speaking purely about a quote with information that holds no context for when the quote was made, you clearly have no intention of answering the question being asked.

You still seem to misunderstand the question being posed so I will not hold it against you. However, again you are offering irrelevant and already addressed points to answer what you feel the question should be, when it is not. I'm really not sure what you're getting worked up over when I have no issue with the old gods being truly dead and agree with that line of thinking. What I was asking was purely related to the quote and nothing else yet you seem to not be able to fathom that.

[FelPlague]

So, basically, we killed 3 Old Gods, and, we are most likely going to kill N'zoth in Legion, and that way we'll cure Azeroth of all Old Gods. If we are doing just that, then why would the Legion want to destroy us? They only go for Old God infected planets, and, we'll basically cure the planet from the corruption.

no we arnt killing the old gods... imagine the old gods are iceburgs, there is the bit sticking out of the water, but the massive part of it is underground, we are cutting off the top, the old gods are still alive, but they are weakend now, and their manifestations are dead, yasharaj is the only dead old god, the other 2 yog and cthun are currently recovering, and wil lreturn at some point, nzoth will be the same

also just cause we cleanse it now "if we can without killing the planet" doesent mean the void lords wont send more old gods, so sargeras wants to destroy it to make sure they never corrupt it

[Qualia]

Like I said, I don't give a shit about the Chronicle. I've made clear multiple times that I'm not trying to prove the fanon as true. I'm only asking how the quote on its own challenges the line of the thinking as many people said that the quote, without the information that has only been made clear by the Chronicle, challenges the fanon. The post you replied to explains why 'dealt with' can be interpreted while still holding on to the notion that they are not dead. Please read a comment before replying to it.

I'm not quite sure what made you thought that I didn't read a comment multiple times before replying to it. If you read my post carefully, you'd have noticed that my arguments have very little to do with Chronicle. My point was - if it escaped your notice somehow - the theory was always that if the Old Gods are *killed*, then Azeroth is doomed. It started from the Tribunals of Ages event in Halls of Stone in WoTLK, which went like this

Kaddrak yells: Accessing. Creators arrived to extirpate symbiotic infection. Assessment revealed that Old God infestation had grown malignant. Excising parasites would result in loss of host--
Brann Bronzebeard yells: If they killed the Old Gods Azeroth would have been destroyed.
Kaddrak yells: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.

As you can see - that's the theory which everyone and Blizzard knew. That Azeroth would be doomed if the Old Gods are *dead*, not if they are re-imprisoned or damaged. The guy asked about that theory specifically, it's obvious that "were dealt with" and "down" were being understood as "dead" since that's how the theory went. While "dealt with" indeed has multiple meaning, in that case you can't claim that "dealt with" could've been interpreted differently there because the questioner were specifically asking about this theory of what happens when the Old Gods are dead / killed. Just because you are trying to play with semantics doesn't mean Blizzard were doing it as well, and if you aren't intentionally trying to warp the word, you'd need to look at the context of the question instead of focusing on one or two words. All in all, that's why the quote pretty much told you that the C'Thun and Yogg are dead. They were replying to the theory of what'd happen if the Old Gods are killed, unless you are trying to say that Metzen and Afrasiabi had no clue of this theory and never bothered to correct it (which would be quite laughable argument), or that there was a theory of Azeroth being doomed if the Old Gods are re-imprisoned / damaged (feel free to link me basis of that theory from official source).

no we arnt killing the old gods... imagine the old gods are iceburgs, there is the bit sticking out of the water, but the massive part of it is underground, we are cutting off the top, the old gods are still alive, but they are weakend now, and their manifestations are dead, yasharaj is the only dead old god, the other 2 yog and cthun are currently recovering, and wil lreturn at some point, nzoth will be the same

also just cause we cleanse it now "if we can without killing the planet" doesent mean the void lords wont send more old gods, so sargeras wants to destroy it to make sure they never corrupt it

Come on. We were finally free of this headcanon about we weren't killing the Old Gods for a while. And now suddenly it appeared again? Imagine a bunch of ant get into your head and eat your brain, would you still be alive? The comic said that C'Thun are dead. In-game quests said that they are dead. Blizzard said in the Q&A section that their deaths caused the Cataclysm. What more do you people need? Whether they can return or not isn't related here, they are dead, but like everything in WoW, they can be resurrected. No, they aren't recovering, neither do they have different manifestations.

The later part or your post is true, however, the Void Lords can always throw more Old Gods around. They are just mass produced disposable cancer cells, in a way.

[Therris]

Lol we haven't killed any old gods

[Imnick]

It doesn't matter whether the Old Gods are really dead or not because the Void Lords can always send more Old Gods, so the only solution (that Sargeras sees) is to destroy Azeroth.

[Dequanacus]

I'm not quite sure what made you thought that I didn't read a comment multiple times before replying to it. If you read my post carefully, you'd have noticed that my arguments have very little to do with Chronicle. My point was - if it escaped your notice somehow - the theory was always that if the Old Gods are *killed*, then Azeroth is doomed. It started from the Tribunals of Ages event in Halls of Stone in WoTLK, which went like this

My question is based solely around the quote that was posted. Any and all conjecture that isn't purely from the quote and the wording of it means absolutely nothing to the question I posed. Perhaps it's simply your comprehension, apologies for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

My question is based solely around the quote that was posted. Any and all conjecture that isn't purely from the quote and the wording of it means absolutely nothing to the question I posed. Perhaps it's simply your comprehension, apologies for jumping to the wrong conclusion.

If you're going to ignore all outside context, then you are fully entitled to interpret "dealt with" as you wish. You're right, that quote in isolation doesn't prove it either way.
However, Fans have never assumed (to my knowledge) that if the Old Gods were DEFEATED calamity would befall Azeroth. We assumed that it would only happen if they were KILLED.
That was the basis of the question. If we killed them, why hasn't the planet exploded? If the planet hasn't exploded, does that mean they're not dead? The response was "The planet did explode, that was Cataclysm." The implication being with context that they are dead.
But you are correct. In isolation, the quote is ambiguous.

[Dequanacus]

If you're going to ignore all outside context, then you are fully entitled to interpret "dealt with" as you wish. You're right, that quote in isolation doesn't prove it either way.
However, Fans have never assumed (to my knowledge) that if the Old Gods were DEFEATED calamity would befall Azeroth. We assumed that it would only happen if they were KILLED.
That was the basis of the question. If we killed them, why hasn't the planet exploded? If the planet hasn't exploded, does that mean they're not dead? The response was "The planet did explode, that was Cataclysm." The implication being with context that they are dead.
But you are correct. In isolation, the quote is ambiguous.

And people argued otherwise. I never claimed that further evidence made clear that it was not the case, simply that the phrasing "dealt with" and "taken down" does not imply "dead for good". All this crap about Chronicle means literally nothing in regards to wordplay and it's not my fault if people took my question to mean more than it actually did.

[CR77]

The legions plan is to eradicate ALL life and start with a clean slate.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Nice. Argument settled. On topic, yes, Sargeras is a madman. He's gone totally insane. He thinks that no universe is preferable to a universe consumed by the Void Lords and Old Gods.

[KrakHed]

If people need even more proof from Blizzard, then there is this too http://www.hellocomic.com/world-of-warcraft/c16/p20 . First narration panel, talked from an omniscience perspective instead of character's perspective (so no character being misled here), was "The Old God, C'Thun, who once lay beneath the ancient ruin, is dead".

C'Thun was surprisingly talkative for a corpse in that comic. The thing here is that if all it took to safely kill an Old God was to punch them hard enough, then I think the Titan-forged armies would have done that. However, Old Gods and their servants don't stay dead as easily as most races. The Titans didn't just lock away the Old Gods, but their servants too.

There should have been no world-shattering repercussions to permanently killing Zakajz or Kith'ix, but instead they were locked away in prison tombs and were entirely revivable after thousands of years. Why? Because Old God creations don't seem to stay dead properly and are surprisingly durable.

The Old Gods might be dead for the moment, but I somehow doubt that will stick.

[Qualia]

The Old Gods might be dead for the moment, but I somehow doubt that will stick.

I don't disagree with that. If Y'Shaarj who was reduced to just a heart (plus some tiny smaller parts corrupting Pandaria) was on the verge of being (partially?) revived, the other two with their corpses largely intact could always be brought back if Blizzard want it. They probably will come back in one way or another, although I'm not sure whether they'd be as important as they were before the introduction of the Void Lords. Maybe in a mass resurrection due to some kind of void energy cataclysm that acts as the beginning of the big invasion from the Void, or maybe by the end of Legion N'Zoth'd somehow end up absorbing other 2 (3?)'s essences and turn into a composite Old God.

[FelPlague]

I'm not quite sure what made you thought that I didn't read a comment multiple times before replying to it. If you read my post carefully, you'd have noticed that my arguments have very little to do with Chronicle. My point was - if it escaped your notice somehow - the theory was always that if the Old Gods are *killed*, then Azeroth is doomed. It started from the Tribunals of Ages event in Halls of Stone in WoTLK, which went like this



As you can see - that's the theory which everyone and Blizzard knew. That Azeroth would be doomed if the Old Gods are *dead*, not if they are re-imprisoned or damaged. The guy asked about that theory specifically, it's obvious that "were dealt with" and "down" were being understood as "dead" since that's how the theory went. While "dealt with" indeed has multiple meaning, in that case you can't claim that "dealt with" could've been interpreted differently there because the questioner were specifically asking about this theory of what happens when the Old Gods are dead / killed. Just because you are trying to play with semantics doesn't mean Blizzard were doing it as well, and if you aren't intentionally trying to warp the word, you'd need to look at the context of the question instead of focusing on one or two words. All in all, that's why the quote pretty much told you that the C'Thun and Yogg are dead. They were replying to the theory of what'd happen if the Old Gods are killed, unless you are trying to say that Metzen and Afrasiabi had no clue of this theory and never bothered to correct it (which would be quite laughable argument), or that there was a theory of Azeroth being doomed if the Old Gods are re-imprisoned / damaged (feel free to link me basis of that theory from official source).


Come on. We were finally free of this headcanon about we weren't killing the Old Gods for a while. And now suddenly it appeared again? Imagine a bunch of ant get into your head and eat your brain, would you still be alive? The comic said that C'Thun are dead. In-game quests said that they are dead. Blizzard said in the Q&A section that their deaths caused the Cataclysm. What more do you people need? Whether they can return or not isn't related here, they are dead, but like everything in WoW, they can be resurrected. No, they aren't recovering, neither do they have different manifestations.

The later part or your post is true, however, the Void Lords can always throw more Old Gods around. They are just mass produced disposable cancer cells, in a way.

uhh no we have allways known that you shouldent kill them, only their manifestations

[Qualia]

uhh no we have allways known that you shouldent kill them, only their manifestations

At this point I'm going to assume you are trolling since you seems to be ignoring all official sources and keep sticking to headcanon.