Open Letter to Blizzard Entertainment from Mark Kern

[Deleted]

#4 just means they were enough of a PR and/or business problem for atvi (including the timing vs. film launch) that blizz needed to pre-empt matters and try to throw some fodder to the flock.

Still they gave them credit. So...
I agree that if I was Blizzard, I would grind my teeth too. And maybe cry a little.

[Relapses]

Oh no they're not.



...ever heard of Pantomime?

Perhaps dueling banjos would be the best way to settle this.

[Mosotti]

1) They have fixed bugs, that they were not fixed, not only on any other private vanilla server for over 12 years but not even in retail vanilla (i.e. path finding in WSG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVT5JfbXnWU, charge fixes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qHsxM4lz2E, increased population limits to outstanding numbers)

They fixed bugs in their own extremely bugged emulated version of WoW, not in the real deal. And when I say "extremely bugged" it's not an insult, it's what it is, even though it was one of the best private servers. If you knew where to look there were so many things not blizzlike, so many bugged mobs, so many bugged quests.

The Blizzard server and the Nost server code are completely different. If they fixed bugs in a code they worked on for years, don't expect them to be hired by Blizzard to instantly fix things on the Blizzard code. It's not how programming works...

[psyquest]

I think would be relatively easy. use current game engine, paste in undamaged sections for classic area map. all the dungeons are already there. can even leave the more accessible scholomance map in to not confuse players. old talent system, according to many posters here, allegedly had false choices so replace that with current system too. put in modernized, linear versions of some old questlines on a per-zone basis, elimnate multi-zone quests, etc. could even use twi. high., an open hyjal, etc., as new max-level zones (they are designed, and have mobs, just lower the level to 61-62 and stick them in there). they could have flying, LFD/LFR, achievements, maybe even pet battles, selfie-cam, etc.

it seems very simple to me, simpler than adapting old code to current hardware for a game that wasn't accessible at all. Activision-Blizzard doesn't do non-accessible games.

It is anything but simple and not at all as simple as you describe it. Unfortunately when blizzard say it is complicated, you should believe them. I have worked for now close to 18 years in software dev, it is not a simple task. It is not just about updating the world, commenting code out here and there and you are done... it is way way more complexe than that.

Just remember that taking in a new member of staff that worked in many other projects, thus experienced, will have to take 8 months to a year to start understanding the ins and out of a project like this one.

[Deficineiron]

Still they gave them credit. So...
I agree that if I was Blizzard, I would grind my teeth too. And maybe cry a little.

giving credit cost blizzard ZERO dollars and impressed some customers. They apparently realized they were stupid not to make throwaway comments like that.

it costs them nothing, obligates them to nothing, etc.

[Mosotti]

It is anything but simple and not at all as simple as you describe it. Unfortunately when blizzard say it is complicated, you should believe them. I have worked for now close to 18 years in software dev, it is not a simple task. It is not just about updating the world, commenting code out here and there and you are done... it is way way more complexe than that.

Just remember that taking in a new member of staff that worked in many other projects, thus experienced, will have to take 8 months to a year to start understanding the ins and out of a project like this one.

A dude like that is at least 100k salary per year, plus bonuses and shit, plus other crap that the company has to pay. And you can't have only one, because you can't put all your eggs in a single basket. He gets familiar with the project, even becomes an expert, then he's hit by a bus. Back to square one.

[Deleted]

They fixed bugs in their own extremely bugged emulated version of WoW, not in the real deal. And when I say "extremely bugged" it's not an insult, it's what it is, even though it was one of the best private servers. If you knew where to look there were so many things not blizzlike, so many bugged mobs, so many bugged quests.

The Blizzard server and the Nost server code are completely different. If they fixed bugs in a code they worked on for years, don't expect them to be hired by Blizzard to instantly fix things on the Blizzard code. It's not how programming works...

Agreed that emulations are always buggy and it needs lots of time, dedication and effort to make them work good enough to gain public support and trust.
No one expects to hire them. I just said that they were credited for this work, done well or not.
A software engineer that can reverse engineer and emulate other software or hardware, is a very prestigious job, highly sought and paid in this business.

[Relapses]

Agreed that emulations are always buggy and it needs lots of time, dedication and effort to make them work good enough to gain public support and trust.
No one expects to hire them. I just said that they were credited for this work, done well or not.
A software engineer that can reverse engineer and emulate other software or hardware, is a very prestigious job, highly sought and paid in this business.

Eh. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say what Nost accomplished was prestigious. The emulation software they used, Mangos, is somewhat straight-forward and if you have the time you can actually set up your very own private realm in a few hours using this software if you were so inclined.

edit: The did develop their own anti-cheat software and actively policed their realms...which is more than what most other private realms do, so they have that going for them. However, it's incorrect to think they developed Nost from the ground up or even that they "reverse-engineered" anything.

[Lolsteak]

Eh. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say what Nost accomplished was prestigious. The emulation software they used, Mangos, is somewhat straight-forward and if you have the time you can actually set up your very own private realm in a few hours using this software if you were so inclined.

You can set one up in minutes actually, Provided you've downloaded all the required files.

That's not what they did though, They did far more.

[Relapses]

You can set one up in minutes actually, Provided you've downloaded all the required files.

That's not what they did though, They did far more.

I was factoring the time it'd take to download the files in that approximation. :P

But yeah, I edited that post as I do realize they did more than just extract Mangos and call it a day.

[Deleted]

Eh. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say what Nost accomplished was prestigious. The emulation software they used, Mangos, is somewhat straight-forward and if you have the time you can actually set up your very own private realm in a few hours using this software if you were so inclined.

edit: The did develop their own anti-cheat software and actively policed their realms...which is more than what most other private realms do, so they have that going for them. However, it's incorrect to think they developed Nost from the ground up or even that they "reverse-engineered" anything.

Have used it myself back in 2007 for machinima purposes and great curiosity, was not impressed much because of the amount of bugs it had and still does. If they managed to fix enough of those horrible annoyances, to make it grow in one year more than any other private server in history, well that speaks by itself, doesn't it?

[Relapses]

Have used it myself back in 2007 for machinima purposes and great curiosity, was not impressed much because of the amount of bugs it had and still does. If they managed to fix enough of those horrible annoyances, to make it grow in one year more than any other private server in history, well that speaks by itself, doesn't it?

Having playing on Nost, they did a decent job but did not fix all of the bugs. Having played retail Vanilla, it still kind of felt like jacking off with the other hand. That's not to entirely discredit them, I just don't personally feel they deserve to be lauded any higher simply because they happened to become the most popular private realm.

[Thimagryn]

1) They have fixed bugs, that they were not fixed, not only on any other private vanilla server for over 12 years but not even in retail vanilla (i.e. path finding in WSG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVT5JfbXnWU, charge fixes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qHsxM4lz2E, increased population limits to outstanding numbers)
2) They did it without any personal gain or profit, just love for the game.
3) In one year only, they outgrew every other private server in existence, mainly because they were actively involved on fixing all bug reports from players.
4) Blizzard themselves requested a meeting, something no one expected, giving them credit for their work on their announcement.

Should I continue?

Amateurs can achieve the same level of skill and effort as any professional. While they are good at what they do, they lack experience (as a formal team) in developing for a large company. They've provided a great service for the community and I'm sure they can transition directly into a professional environment, but they aren't professionals (yet).

Consider that Nost is a no-risk project. It could have not worked out at all and all they would have lost is the time they invested in trying to make it work. Everyone was a volunteer. Things change when money and professional responsibility get involved. Much of Blizzard's talent has come from amateur sources (modders, machinima makers, pro gamers, youtubers/podcasters), but none of those sources would be considered professional development.

There are a lot more rules and stipulations in a professional environment that has to go through multiple stages of approval. The difference is like playing Chess with your buddy using 'house rules', and playing Chess professionally using tournament rules. There's less room to 'fudge the numbers' once you have to go through an approval process. Of course this will all depend on how much free reign the team is given if they get hired on.

[Deleted]

Ah, refreshing to see awesome discussion, I really appreciate it.

Whoever tried to fix pathfinding in wowemu (if anyone remembers it) or mangos is silently crying. To me, personally, this is best RE ever, period.

On a humorous note, if they do hire any of those guys, I will print (in very small font size) and eat, all the petition pages.

[psyquest]

Amateurs can achieve the same level of skill and effort as any professional.

no they dont. in a real professional project your are faced with an enormeous amount of tools you need to master. Development wise you can go on doing many project and not see one design pattern implemented, and trust me they are various degrees of developers and as a rule no amateur would be at the same skill level of a professional, otherwise there wont be a crisis in IT recruitment...

please dont just throw statement like this, it does not sound serious.

[Deleted]

That's not what they did though, They did far more.

Do you have proof of this? There are a lot more vanilla wow servers out there and a very quick search can net you the files to host your own. Adding things onto a private server requires very little, if any programming knowledge at all, since tools are made that allow you to rip content from future xpacs. To further that, things like NPCs and the things they sell are actually spawned in via extremely basic SQL queries. This is why there are so many WoW private servers, running every xpac.

They might have made their own anti-cheat, but let's be fair here, while it's more then other private servers do, it's not exactly amazing, given they got their files and likely their knowledge from the same sites people post around hacks, it's not difficult to make a program that just scans for the most common hacks on that site.

Bug fixes too, while I haven't ever downloaded the server files, I have played around with other games server files, and some of the fixes they show in their promotional videos seem pretty easy. Like fixing some LoS issues, which, in at least the games i've messed with, is a simple tick box in some tools. If they are developing their own tools, good job to them but it seems extremely unlikely, and a bit of a waste of time given they are already out there, and have been for a long time.

[Faible]

Why don't blizzard lease out their trademark

dont have to pay for the devs
dont pay the drifting
dont have to do anything really

[psyquest]

Why don't blizzard lease out their trademark

dont have to pay for the devs
dont pay the drifting
dont have to do anything really

if we assume blizzard can decide this without the consent of vivendi, it is a massive minefield.

who decide how the vanilla side project should evolve? Should it evolve? Who controls that the project does not put a shade on the main wow project?
How do you protect your IP if you give your source code to a third party? How do you avoid theft?

Honestly, Blizzard will not be licensing their source code to a third party. They would be mad to do so.

[Pann]

if we assume blizzard can decide this without the consent of vivendi, it is a massive minefield.

who decide how the vanilla side project should evolve? Should it evolve? Who controls that the project does not put a shade on the main wow project?
How do you protect your IP if you give your source code to a third party? How do you avoid theft?

Honestly, Blizzard will not be licensing their source code to a third party. They would be mad to do so.

I don't think Vivendi would have any say in the matter to be honest.

[Faible]

if we assume blizzard can decide this without the consent of vivendi, it is a massive minefield.

who decide how the vanilla side project should evolve? Should it evolve? Who controls that the project does not put a shade on the main wow project?
How do you protect your IP if you give your source code to a third party? How do you avoid theft?

Honestly, Blizzard will not be licensing their source code to a third party. They would be mad to do so.

Do they have to license out theri sourcecode? I was just thinking more the lines of; Hey, pay us X upfront/X per sub/X per activeplayer/X, every X day/week/month/year/X, and you'll be allowed to promote your server with the World of warcraft title (with restrictions etcetc blabla all that crap)