The Problem With C'thun

[Krazzorx]

Doubt there will be many face hunters when face shaman got buffed so much.

[Charge me Doctor]

Pretty much. You have to leave them up for multiple turns or or not kill brann when they play it. If you can play some battlecry buff cards while you have brann out you can get some sick value but in order to combo even one of the buff cards with brann you are spending 5 mana and not getting much in the way of board control.

Another thing about CT is you are not guaranteed to draw it by turn 10. Even if you do and it has only 17 damage but your opponent has near full hp and 10+hp worth of minions on the board, you get a 10 mana board clear at best because chances are they have a removal for it next turn.

What are you talking about, C'Thun minions are on curve, it's not like you play murlock deck or something. All of them have really nice stats and can easily compete with other cards

[Jester Joe]

What are you talking about, C'Thun minions are on curve, it's not like you play murlock deck or something. All of them have really nice stats and can easily compete with other cards

Them being on curve doesn't have much to do with C'thun not breaking 15-17 for the most part with the exception of C'thun Druids, or the fact that most of their battlecries are just C'thun buffs, meaning they don't do much to clear the board even with Brann.

[Nikkaszal]

I tossed one of my Azure Drakes to make way for Ancient Harbinger. It's outstanding.

It is an extreme value magnet. People will pile NUMEROUS cards onto it to prevent me pulling C'thun from it. And if it lives, GG.

[Jester Joe]

I tossed one of my Azure Drakes to make way for Ancient Harbinger. It's outstanding.

It is an extreme value magnet. People will pile NUMEROUS cards onto it to prevent me pulling C'thun from it. And if it lives, GG.

Exactly my feelings on it too.

Like, the amount of cards in Hearthstone that can be set up to guarantee a card draw is very low (Only one I can think of off the top of my head is "Sense Demons" really). I remember people saying Ancient Harbinger should of been at the end of the turn, but it would of been literally over powered if it was that in my opinion.

[Nikkaszal]

Exactly my feelings on it too.

Like, the amount of cards in Hearthstone that can be set up to guarantee a card draw is very low (Only one I can think of off the top of my head is "Sense Demons" really). I remember people saying Ancient Harbinger should of been at the end of the turn, but it would of been literally over powered if it was that in my opinion.

The best part is that if he lives to pull C'thun, I make a show of protecting him for another turn. My opponents will usually bend over backwards to kill him, even making extremely awkward trades or spending nukes/removal.

Meanwhile, of course, I don't have a single other 10cost and his job is already done.

[Vurdah]

What are you talking about, C'Thun minions are on curve, it's not like you play murlock deck or something. All of them have really nice stats and can easily compete with other cards

Just because they play on curve means nothing. There are plenty of cards that play on curve and are garbage. Most successful decks play minions that impact the board immediately or within the next turn. The CT buff cards for the most part just add a buff that you don't see much benefit from until turn 10, and that is assuming you draw CT by then. The only CT buff card I can recall atm that has an immediate impact is the 3 mana 2/1 that does 2 damage and buffs CT 2/2. That card most likely kills a 2 to 3 mana card and in a rare case a 4 mana card and dies to some hero powers and 1 mana spells and minions or random effects. So what are you talking about?

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I tossed one of my Azure Drakes to make way for Ancient Harbinger. It's outstanding.

It is an extreme value magnet. People will pile NUMEROUS cards onto it to prevent me pulling C'thun from it. And if it lives, GG.

It can be killed, silenced or polymorphed, cost 6 mana for a 4/6 body and does nothing until the start of your next turn. Even if your opponent leaves it up and you draw CT, you still can't play it until turn 10 or 9 with coin. That and the chances of have good enough board control + having it that turn or at all + your opponent not having an answer for it is a stars align moment. Just think you go second and you have used your coin already to play something else and turn 9 comes up and you play AH. It's your opponent's turn which is turn 10. He plays CT your AH dies and you draw jack and shit. You probably don't have much of a board now being you blew 6 mana for a 4/6 and maybe one other 3 mana minion or you hero powered. Either way may have just lost the game.

A 4/6 for 6 mana that basically draws a card at the start of your next turn is not very good.

[Nikkaszal]

Just because they play on curve means nothing. There are plenty of cards that play on curve and are garbage. Most successful decks play minions that impact the board immediately or within the next turn. The CT buff cards for the most part just add a buff that you don't see much benefit from until turn 10, and that is assuming you draw CT by then. The only CT buff card I can recall atm that has an immediate impact is the 3 mana 2/1 that does 2 damage and buffs CT 2/2. That card most likely kills a 2 to 3 mana card and in a rare case a 4 mana card and dies to some hero powers and 1 mana spells and minions or random effects. So what are you talking about?

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It can be killed, silenced or polymorphed, cost 6 mana for a 4/6 body and does nothing until the start of your next turn. Even if your opponent leaves it up and you draw CT, you still can't play it until turn 10 or 9 with coin. That and the chances of have good enough board control + having it that turn or at all + your opponent not having an answer for it is a stars align moment. Just think you go second and you have used your coin already to play something else and turn 9 comes up and you play AH. It's your opponent's turn which is turn 10. He plays CT your AH dies and you draw jack and shit. You probably don't have much of a board now being you blew 6 mana for a 4/6 and maybe one other 3 mana minion or you hero powered. Either way may have just lost the game.

A 4/6 for 6 mana that basically draws a card at the start of your next turn is not very good.

You're missing the point.

The biggest downfall to a C'thun deck is not drawing C'thun. Harbinger adds a second chance.

And as I mentioned, I'm not terribly fussed if he dies. It won't lose me the game. What he does is force immediate and often inefficient removal, which is good news for my bigger, better minions like Twin Emps, Thaurissan and C'thunf himself.

[FobManX]

My C'thun Warrior deck absolutely wrecks in Standard. Won 16 games in a row with it, went from 20 to 12 in like 2 hours.

lolol, dude not trying to be a dick but those ranks don't mean anything. I can play a f2p deck and win in those ranks.

[Nikkaszal]

lolol, dude not trying to be a dick but those ranks don't mean anything. I can play a f2p deck and win in those ranks.

They mean a lot to the OVERWHELMING majority of players. I believe 16-18 are the average ranks.

[FobManX]

They mean a lot to the OVERWHELMING majority of players. I believe 16-18 are the average ranks.

I mean in the sense of deck evaluation. Most people in that rank don't know how to play or are playing terrible/gimmicky decks. You can basically play anything at those ranks and climb if you have any sort of idea how to play.

[Nikkaszal]

I mean in the sense of deck evaluation. Most people in that rank don't know how to play or are playing terrible/gimmicky decks. You can basically play anything at those ranks and climb if you have any sort of idea how to play.

Those ranks are actually where you find nothing but "meta" with VERY little variation and creativity. It's only further on that people are actually making new/improved decks.

So for a sense of "viability" vs whatever meta comes out, yes, those ranks are the melting pot.

[Nikkaszal]

Yeah, just like I thought, this is getting boring REALLY fast.

Every game. The same neutral C'Thun buffers. The same overall play style. The same general theme to the match. The only difference is the class specific C'Thun minion.

It's worse than seeing Piloted Shredder and Dr. Boom over and over.

It's new and exciting, that's all. It'll blow over soon as different decks emerge.

New Zoo with Councilman/tentacles, for example, SHITS on a C'thun deck

[Vurdah]

You're missing the point.

The biggest downfall to a C'thun deck is not drawing C'thun. Harbinger adds a second chance.

And as I mentioned, I'm not terribly fussed if he dies. It won't lose me the game. What he does is force immediate and often inefficient removal, which is good news for my bigger, better minions like Twin Emps, Thaurissan and C'thunf himself.

I made CT zoo deck and played around 18 games and only in 3 games did I not draw CT and in all 3 of those games I was nuked by new WOG tempo decks long before I reached turn 10.

I also played 7 games with a warrior CT deck and had it on or before turn 10 on all but 2 games and I drew it turn 11 and turn 13.

It's not hard to draw CT by turn 10 or shortly after and harbinger imo takes up a slot for something better, at least in those two decks.

And the players struggling to kill it I would call noobs. Especially if they are trying to nuke it pre turn 9. You can draw all the 10 drops you want but if I kill you before then it really means nothing to me if you draw 3 or 4 10 drops because you can't play then until turn 10 anyway.

[Jester Joe]

The best part is that if he lives to pull C'thun, I make a show of protecting him for another turn. My opponents will usually bend over backwards to kill him, even making extremely awkward trades or spending nukes/removal.

Meanwhile, of course, I don't have a single other 10cost and his job is already done.

Also makes great bait when you have C'thun in your hand already.

[Deleted]

I think Grim Patron and C'thun will be the meta this season.

[Nikkaszal]

Also makes great bait when you have C'thun in your hand already.

Yes sir, just ended a game where my opponent expended THREE cards (both Disciples and a bad trade) to clear out a Harbinger when I used him as bait (already had C'thun).

Meant he was unable to remove my next turn Thaurissan, who stayed up twice to enable a Bran + Cthun finisher.

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It's not hard to draw CT by turn 10 or shortly after and harbinger imo takes up a slot for something better, at least in those two decks.

He's replacing a Drake, who also existed almost solely to fish for C'thun. Same purpose.

[Vurdah]

Yes sir, just ended a game where my opponent expended THREE cards (both Disciples and a bad trade) to clear out a Harbinger when I used him as bait (already had C'thun).

Meant he was unable to remove my next turn Thaurissan, who stayed up twice to enable a Bran + Cthun finisher.

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He's replacing a Drake, who also existed almost solely to fish for C'thun. Same purpose.

That cost 1 more mana with only 2 more hp and can only draw you a 10 mana card IF it doesn't die or get silenced before your next turn. With the drake you can play it one turn earlier and are guaranteed a card. I don't know about you but at that stage of the game I'm drawing for combos and cards to setup the kill.

Why anyone would value a card with 2 more hp that cost 1 more mana that doesn't even guarantee you to draw a card and is limited to one type of card makes no sense.

I feel it's a poor trade but that is just my opinion.

[LilSaihah]

I dunno I don't really think C'thun is that bad on paper you just need to recognize what his weaknesses are (i.e. having something fat or multiple fat things to soak his battlecry, clearing enemy Brann so he doesn't instawin, saving removal for C'thun).

Why not include something big like Ysera in your control deck to soak C'thun's hit
If you're playing aggro or tempo, why aren't you out-tempoing them

[Nikkaszal]

That cost 1 more mana with only 2 more hp and can only draw you a 10 mana card IF it doesn't die or get silenced before your next turn. With the drake you can play it one turn earlier and are guaranteed a card. I don't know about you but at that stage of the game I'm drawing for combos and cards to setup the kill.

Why anyone would value a card with 2 more hp that cost 1 more mana that doesn't even guarantee you to draw a card and is limited to one type of card makes no sense.

I feel it's a poor trade but that is just my opinion.

It has been working VERY well for me in practise rather than theory

So

Shrug.