New Vol'jin information

[Magnagarde]

He dies infront of everyone right in the throne room before nominating Sylvanas

I saw that literally like 10 minutes ago as I rewatched it on youtube. I watched a clip where wasn't even present. Thanks for the heads up though.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Vol'jin was too good for the Horde anyway. Most players who roll Horde want an edgy, controversial, bad boy/bad girl leader. Having a leader who genuinely loved the Horde, wanted what was best for the family, and had no ulterior motives? Nah, that didn't fit the image.

[Deleted]

Most players who roll Horde want an edgy, controversial, bad boy/bad girl leader.

Do you have the data to support this claim?

Because I can pull the same data of the same source and go saying that most players that roll Alliance want a conflict driven leader against 'teh evil hoardz'.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Do you have the data to support this claim?

Because I can pull the same data of the same source and go saying that most players that roll Alliance want a conflict driven leader against 'teh evil hoardz'.

This time I threw out the "most players" - and indeed the whole comment - mostly for effect and to be thought-provoking. I have sensed a strong sentiment here on MMO that Horde players (I play both factions) are happy to see Sylvanas taking over, despite her obvious character flaws, despite Vol'jin being the one who led the rebellion to overthrow Garrosh, despite Thrall's faith in Vol'jin and no hints anywhere that Vol'jin would not be loyal to the entire Horde, while Sylvanas has threatened or lied to other racial leaders. So I try and reconcile all that, and the only reason that makes sense to me is that Horde players - whether it's most or just a vocal minority who post on this forum - prefer a War Chief who's edgy and controversial.

[Arrashi]

This time I threw out the "most players" - and indeed the whole comment - mostly for effect and to be thought-provoking. I have sensed a strong sentiment here on MMO that Horde players (I play both factions) are happy to see Sylvanas taking over, despite her obvious character flaws, despite Vol'jin being the one who led the rebellion to overthrow Garrosh, despite Thrall's faith in Vol'jin and no hints anywhere that Vol'jin would not be loyal to the entire Horde, while Sylvanas has threatened or lied to other racial leaders. So I try and reconcile all that, and the only reason that makes sense to me is that Horde players - whether it's most or just a vocal minority who post on this forum - prefer a War Chief who's edgy and controversial.

To be fair they prefer sylvanas because she actually has enough character build up and personality to have flaws, be controversial and interesting.
On the other hand vol'jin is just a little bitch that yells for h-h-h-h-heeeeeeelp.

Oh and on topic of "threatening" other leaders i suggest you replay a troll starting zone.

[Deleted]

This time I threw out the "most players" - and indeed the whole comment - mostly for effect and to be thought-provoking. I have sensed a strong sentiment here on MMO that Horde players (I play both factions) are happy to see Sylvanas taking over, despite her obvious character flaws, despite Vol'jin being the one who led the rebellion to overthrow Garrosh, despite Thrall's faith in Vol'jin and no hints anywhere that Vol'jin would not be loyal to the entire Horde, while Sylvanas has threatened or lied to other racial leaders. So I try and reconcile all that, and the only reason that makes sense to me is that Horde players - whether it's most or just a vocal minority who post on this forum - prefer a War Chief who's edgy and controversial.

Garrosh was controversial. Sylvanas will be down right evil without sugar coating. People who enjoyed Garrosh wouldn't enjoy Sylvanas, and at the time it was cool hating on Garrosh so the name that was thrown around the most alongside Vol'jin was Sylvanas, just due to their development, status and longevity. Who other choices did we have? Lor'themar, who, despite being loyal to the Horde, cares most and foremost about his own people? Baine, who would be far too little assertive and inexperienced? Gallywix? Ji?

Now I challenge anyone to come here and present me with a good reason why do you want Sylvanas as a (non-transitional) Warchief.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

As far as my personal perspective, I have Troll and Tauren characters so would of course prefer Vol'jin or Baine. All my toons tend to gravitate toward the neutral/unifying factions - Cenarion Circle, Argent Crusade, etc.

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To be fair they prefer sylvanas because she actually has enough character build up and personality to have flaws, be controversial and interesting.
On the other hand vol'jin is just a little bitch that yells for h-h-h-h-heeeeeeelp.

Oh and on topic of "threatening" other leaders i suggest you replay a troll starting zone.

Vol'jin threatened - and eventually led the rebellion to overthrow - someone who needed both. Sylvanas has threatened Lor'themar (and all the Blood Elves), lied to orcs about whether she'd use the plague on Gilneas, and now routinely raises the dead of her enemies to fight against their former friends and family. But that's who Horde players want for a leader? Because having a leader who wants everyone in the 'family' to prosper is just boring.

[Deleted]

But that's who Horde players want for a leader?

Again, where is your proof that this is the majority's opinion?

[Arrashi]

Vol'jin threatened - and eventually led the rebellion to overthrow - someone who needed both. Sylvanas has threatened Lor'themar (and all the Blood Elves), lied to orcs about whether she'd use the plague on Gilneas, and now routinely raises the dead of her enemies to fight against their former friends and family. But that's who Horde players want for a leader? Because having a leader who wants everyone in the 'family' to prosper is just boring.

Precisely yes. Sylvanas is interesting. Vol'jin begs random people for heeeelp, and throws random cringy quotes like "muh family" to desperately prove that he is a good guy in this story and not bystander.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Again, where is your proof that this is the majority's opinion?

Arrashi! Doesn't Arrashi speak for the majority?

[Deleted]

Precisely yes. Sylvanas is interesting. Vol'jin begs random people for heeeelp, and throws random cringy quotes like "muh family" to desperately prove that he is a good guy in this story and not bystander.

Sylvanas is interesting as a controversial, transitional Warchief who will either be killed off in the end or inevitably has to change for the sake of "muh family" if she wants to remain a Leader. If you think that the current Sylvanas would represent what Blizzard wants the Horde model to be, then think again.

Arrashi! Doesn't Arrashi speak for the majority?

He doesn't, and read above.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Precisely yes. Sylvanas is interesting. Vol'jin begs random people for heeeelp, and throws random cringy quotes like "muh family" to desperately prove that he is a good guy in this story and not bystander.

You throw this stuff out about Vol'jin asking for help a LOT - but every NPC asks players for help - in game - otherwise what would we do? Log in to watch cinematics? Vol'jin, Thrall, Khadgar... in the books they do epic stuff, but in game they make excuses for why we need to do it.

[Verdugo]

Vol'jin sacrifices himself so that he can return mounted on the back of Hakkar thanks to his new Atal'ai buddies which he made a deal with in secret.

Legion blood for the blood god.

But Khorne hates cowards...

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I mean, I could argue that Sylvanas is weak because in ICC dungeons she kept expecting us to kill the bosses and only showed up after they were dead. Then after WE kill the Lich King, she decides to kill herself. This is the great leader you're holding up as more heroic than Vol'jin?

[Arrashi]

Sylvanas is interesting as a controversial, transitional Warchief who will either be killed off in the end or inevitably has to change for the sake of "muh family" if she wants to remain a Leader. If you think that the current Sylvanas would represent what Blizzard wants the Horde model to be, then think again.

Does she really ? Because if anyone was a "transitional" warchief it was Vol'jin "Warchief placeholder". The reason why they change warchiefs to begin with is because "muh family" is boring and doesn't sell on the box. Sylvanas on the other hand does. And she is taking her place for a reason.

Also, even anduin is gonna get darker and closer to reality, so there is no reason for a change as soon as legion ends.

You throw this stuff out about Vol'jin asking for help a LOT - but every NPC asks players for help - in game - otherwise what would we do? Log in to watch cinematics? Vol'jin, Thrall, Khadgar... in the books they do epic stuff, but in game they make excuses for why we need to do it.

Thrall actually shot deathwing. Khadgar is seen everywhere in WoD and helps all the time both in combat and in quests.
Now remember when vol'jin confronted garrosh in SoO ? Oh wait.....he was "leading the rebelion"....out of sight....somewhere.

I mean, I could argue that Sylvanas is weak because in ICC dungeons she kept expecting us to kill the bosses and only showed up after they were dead. Then after WE kill the Lich King, she decides to kill herself. This is the great leader you're holding up as more heroic than Vol'jin?

Remember how in warcraft 3 she alone with few banshees menaged to break dreadlords hold on lordaeron ?
Vol'jin on the other hand took....6 ? years to deal with single necromancer.

[Deleted]

Does she really ? Because if anyone was a "transitional" warchief it was Vol'jin "Warchief placeholder". The reason why they change warchiefs to begin with is because "muh family" is boring and doesn't sell on the box. Sylvanas on the other hand does. And she is taking her place for a reason.

Because it sells as a "transitional" leader. If the buyers are expecting that this is the Horde model that will stick around in the game and bought without that awareness in mind, then that one is on them and I will be there to laugh when they rage.

Sylvanas, without further development, is enforcing the idea that "hordez r teh evil" if the whole Horde eventually followed into her ideals, and that is something Blizzard is very keen to avoid.

[Rend Blackhand]

Vol'Jin was never inspiring even with his stupid and forced rebellion story.

The fact that he did fuck all and now is dying makes Garrosh's story arc since cataclysm all the more insulting as his successor meant so little where if Garrosh was still Waechief and died at the broken shore it would at least mirror daddy Hellscream and be ore significant.

There was no point in making Vol'Jin an important character because he ended up being a no name chump who dies in his throne after failing yet again.

[Garfurion]

Couldn't Vol'jin's death be part of a plan to enter the spirit world to talk to Bwonsamdi and the other Loa in an attempt to get their aid against the Legion similar to how Cenarius pleaded with the Ancients to join their fight in the War of the Ancients and Malfurion enlisted the wisps in the Battle of Mount Hyal ?

In this scenario Vol'jin could come back to life at the end of Legion at the head of a Loa army.

[Deleted]

Just to clarify:

I am not arguing that Vol'jiin was the leader we needed, because he didn't work out well. I am saying that Sylvanas, in her current form, will not be a suitable leader.

[Arrashi]

Because it sells as a "transitional" leader. If the buyers are expecting that this is the Horde model that will stick around in the game and bought without that awareness in mind, then that one is on them and I will be there to laugh when they rage.

Sylvanas, without further development, is enforcing the idea that "hordez r teh evil" if the whole Horde eventually followed into her ideals, and that is something Blizzard is very keen to avoid.

To be fair she seems pretty reasonable in legion. She is more of "non-nonsence" person rather the "horde is evil". Or is it that she is undead ?

And again who will replace her ? Another orc since we burned orc fatigue already ? "Hai guys its yo boi Gerrush and i will totally not commit genocide".

Couldn't Vol'jin's death be part of a plan to enter the spirit world to talk to Bwonsamdi and the other Loa in an attempt to get their aid against the Legion similar to how Cenarius pleaded with the Ancients to join their fight in the War of the Ancients and Malfurion enlisted the wisps in the Battle of Mount Hyal ?

In this scenario Vol'jin could come back to life at the end of Legion at the head of a Loa army.

"Yo guys here is my plan - i will die ! Trust me it will work !"
What a tactical genius.