Preach Ranks Legion Tanks. (Tanking in Legion is Bad?)

[ro9ue]

Making mechanics easier for your raid =/= trivializing mechanics and heals.

And no, the point of a tank is NOT to become an invincible anything. Otherwise everyone would just raid with all tanks and win everything. I get that people don't like a lot of Legion changes (I hate their 'class fantasy' BM spec with a ****ing passion) but people really need to check the hyperbole at the door.

No tank is invincible - otherwise everyone would be 13/13M.

[Alvito]

You are wrong, they really WERE that hard at the beginning. You probably experienced them after they got big nerfs, or much later with raid gear.

Maybe they were for you. They were more punishing then say the end of wrath. The skill of the tanks and cc had a much larger impact, but I wouldn't say they were hard.

[Skarzog]

You just answered your own 'I don't know why' comment. Tanks were too powerful in all but the most dangerous scenarios. Your job as a tank (and I play 5 of them myself) isn't to be an invincible juggernaut that trivializes mechanics and the need for healers.

There is alot of hyperbole going on in this thread. I don't remember at any point during progression where I felt like an invincible juggernaut that couldn't die and was completely independent of healers; especially on fights like Blackhand, Tyrant, Mannoroth, and Archimonde. There were multiple fights like those mentioned this expansion where if you were not healed on gcd you would probably die, mitigation or not.

The question is of course how much control of survivability do you want to put in the tanks hands? Its not that this expansion tanks could do without healing during progression; but most of the control of their survivability was placed in their hands. You needed heals but in terms of mitigation that kept you from getting simply globaled, that was in your control for the most part.

Blizzard wants to cut back on how much control tanks have over their ability to survive. They did. They also wanted to cut back the number of tools and frequency of availability to those tools. They did. They also said they want to cut back the amount of spike damage tanks receive and make their health more smooth; allowing for this system to work. So far... Eh, not really. There is still plenty of spike damage on Alpha and you rather quickly run out of responses to them.

My only apprehension to this entire discussion is my faith in Blizzard's ability to accomplish their tank/healing dynamic goals. They set out to do something similar every expansion. And every expansion it eventually devolves back into spam healing every gcd or die.

[Deliverer]

Never said that all can do that. You said that right now

Not every warlock could snapshotting very good either back then, was still broken, what kind of argument is this? This the case with all classes



1. i dont see a single sentence of me "no way to shine for tanks". second off you totally ignoring the god like structure of tank right which i descriped to you and you chose to not respond, how they can shine in double of ammount of the ways as then the other roles. So no if you get prunned in that aspect a little bit its not like there is nothing, thats hyperbole




Again, bad players existing for all classes, its not reserved to tanks. It do nothing against in being a broken mechanic.



To the new heroics, i hope they dont and blizzard stays away from the carebear style that we get in mop and wod

They have more ways to shine yes but why you bother? if you don't like it don't play tank it's fun gameplay for many me included and it doesn't take off anything from other roles.. It's like saying remove fistweaving because healers shouldn't be dpsing, well guess what? a lot of people like that playstyle

[dreamdaddy]

There is alot of hyperbole going on in this thread. I don't remember at any point during progression where I felt like an invincible juggernaut that couldn't die and was completely independent of healers; especially on fights like Blackhand, Tyrant, Mannoroth, and Archimonde. There were multiple fights like those mentioned this expansion where if you were not healed on gcd you would probably die, mitigation or not.

The question is of course how much control of survivability do you want to put in the tanks hands? Its not that this expansion tanks could do without healing during progression; but most of the control of their survivability was placed in their hands. You needed heals but in terms of mitigation that kept you from getting simply globaled, that was in your control for the most part.

Blizzard wants to cut back on how much control tanks have over their ability to survive. They did. They also wanted to cut back the number of tools and frequency of availability to those tools. They did. They also said they want to cut back the amount of spike damage tanks receive and make their health more smooth; allowing for this system to work. So far... Eh, not really. There is still plenty of spike damage on Alpha and you rather quickly run out of responses to them.

My only apprehension to this entire discussion is my faith in Blizzard's ability to accomplish their tank/healing dynamic goals. They set out to do something similar every expansion. And every expansion it eventually devolves back into spam healing every gcd or die.

It feels like they're trying to normalize the tanking experience between mythic raiding (low percentage of the population) and doing dungeons/normal raiding (high percentage of the population) as well as re-shift healing focus back on to the tanks. For much of WoD, tanks were relatively self-sustaining with a beacon - sure when you have situations like Death Brand on M Archi, you'll need CDs and tons of heals - and healing has been mostly hovering over raid frames and healing people who were targeted by mechanics or who stood in fire.

[Borigrad]

10 pages later and there still isn't any feedback besides "This is less fun for me." What a useless thread. How about people discuss why this is bad for the game, or why it's bad design, instead of talking about Subjective things like "fun"

[ro9ue]

Making mechanics easier for your raid =/= trivializing mechanics and heals.

And no, the point of a tank is NOT to become an invincible anything. Otherwise everyone would just raid with all tanks and win everything. I get that people don't like a lot of Legion changes (I hate their 'class fantasy' BM spec with a ****ing passion) but people really need to check the hyperbole at the door.

The only hyperbole is from the people who are saying tanks are invincible. It's just not true. A tank can be really skilled and geared and require minimal heals... but they are never invincible.

[Borigrad]

They have more ways to shine yes but why you bother? if you don't like it don't play tank it's fun gameplay for many me included and it doesn't take off anything from other roles.. It's like saying remove fistweaving because healers shouldn't be dpsing, well guess what? a lot of people like that playstyle

Tanks being so self-reliant removed a lot of gameplay from Healers and other dps that can use their cooldowns to help mitigate spike damage on the tank, so yes it actually did take things away from other roles.

[FluFF]

I don't even see why I should listen to Preach, it's not like he has any memorable experience in raiding or anything like that to rank tanks.
If I want tank ranking I'm much more inclined to ask that question to someone like Slootbag.

[TheWindWalker]

10 pages later and there still isn't any feedback besides "This is less fun for me." What a useless thread. How about people discuss why this is bad for the game, or why it's bad design, instead of talking about Subjective things like "fun"

That'd be fine. What's absolutely bizarre is people constantly rambling about "they're stripping away active mitigation" when every tank in Legion has to constantly manage resources/CDs and properly time button presses just to keep up their defensive buffs.

It was like when people were coming on here during WoD's alpha and saying -well literally the same things, stuff like "My hunter only has three buttons period that's it oh god" and then others who knew their shit would link a picture of their 14-20 button action bars followed by "Oh god my hunter only has five buttons period" right after. Right. After. Same. Page and everything.

[Darkeon]

As someone who mains a Damage-Dealer and tanks\heals for shits-n-giggles occasionally whenever I felt like it.... I might be skipping those two roles all together in Legion..

[Borigrad]

I guess you didn't actually read the thread then. Several people explained exactly why they find this design not fun. And this is a game, there is nothing more important than it being fun.

Fun is subjective, argue why it's bad for the game. There's just as many people in this thread arguing why it's better for the game overall and more fun for other roles. The game isn't just about tanks. No one can argue that the direction tanking has gone, has hurt the fun of healers and certain DPS specs. Fun is subjective, just because you scream the loudest that you aren't having fun, doesn't mean you're correct. Why is a change like this bad for the game overall, other than fun.

Oh and the irony of it is, even if it's less fun personally, over all a well balanced game is more fun for everyone. Tanks being near-invincible, is bad for the game, they should be Reliant on healers, cause that's what the healers job is, What's more fun for you, is less fun for the healer, or the DPS specs that off heal, or use their CD's to help mitigate damage on tanks or the raid.

- - - Updated - - -

That'd be fine. What's absolutely bizarre is people constantly rambling about "they're stripping away active mitigation" when every tank in Legion has to constantly manage resources/CDs and properly time button presses just to keep up their defensive buffs.

Apparently it's not fun unless you step on the toes of both healers and dps specs at the same time.

[Evolved]

Tanks being so self-reliant removed a lot of gameplay from Healers and other dps that can use their cooldowns to help mitigate spike damage on the tank, so yes it actually did take things away from other roles.

There's just as many people in this thread arguing why it's better for the game overall and more fun for other roles.

What's more fun for you, is less fun for the healer, or the DPS specs that off heal, or use their CD's to help mitigate damage on tanks or the raid.

There hasn't been a single point made to justify why it's better for tanks to have less control over their survival.

DPS specs that off heal and use CD's to mitigate damage? Clearly a troll.

[TheEaterofSouls]

If anyone thinks preach is always like this, keep in minds he released a video yesterday where he spent 30 minutes singing the praises of legions endgame. so make of that what you will.

[FluFF]

If anyone thinks preach is always like this, keep in minds he released a video yesterday where he spent 30 minutes singing the praises of legions endgame. so make of that what you will.

He just plays the crowd for entertainment, I put him in the same bracket as Towelliee or Swifty or Kungen ( sure Towelliee actually raids but he only really knows prot pally )
Pretty clear from Preach his vids or streams that he isn't a source to go to for quality gameplay or gameplay opinions, let alone class rankings.

[Borigrad]

There hasn't been a single point made to justify why it's better for tanks to have less control over their survival.

DPS specs that off heal and use CD's to mitigate damage? Clearly a troll.

It's more fun for the Healers, there we go I just made a counter point to "fun." That's why i keep telling you to change the topic of fun and argue why it's bad overall for the health of the game. Fun is subjective and Blizzard rarely listens to it as a feedback design as far as classes are concerned (How do you think we got Arms warriors?) Cause what you find unfun, someone else is going to find fun and Blizzard understands they can't please everyone and the goal is to make a balanced game.

So like i said, and will continue to say. Instead of arguing subjective things like fun, argue things like why it's bad for the game mechanically.

[Evolved]

So like i said, and will continue to say. Instead of arguing subjective things like fun, argue things like why it's bad for the game mechanically.

I will say again, go read the thread. Plenty of points have been made.

While you're reading, try to come up with a legitimate reason for tanks to not have control over their own survivability.

[Borigrad]

While you're reading, try to come up with a legitimate reason for tanks to not have control over their own survivability.

Easier to balance the game around, damage can be smoothed out better from a boss perspective, less chance of mistakes on the tanks end that overly punishes a very rare mistake, by rewarding consistency and proper positioning and good use of active mitigation. It also offers variety in healer play styles, instead of every healer only offering one realistic play style of raid healing, people can go back to a style they prefer with tank healing or Raid healing. Tanks can also worry more about positioning and harder mechanics in the future, that'll be more rewarding than simply keeping yourself alive.

See, an actual arguement for why it's good or bad, instead of "fun."

[kamuimac]

If anyone thinks preach is always like this, keep in minds he released a video yesterday where he spent 30 minutes singing the praises of legions endgame. so make of that what you will.

its called "making $$$" and people are grapping bait like hungry fishes while he makes a living from their stupidity

[Evolved]

Easier to balance the game around, damage can be smoothed out better from a boss perspective, less chance of mistakes on the tanks end that overly punishes a very rare mistake, by rewarding consistency and proper positioning and good use of active mitigation. It also offers variety in healer play styles, instead of every healer only offering one realistic play style of raid healing, people can go back to a style they prefer with tank healing or Raid healing. Tanks can also worry more about positioning and harder mechanics in the future, that'll be more rewarding than simply keeping yourself alive.

See, an actual arguement for why it's good or bad, instead of "fun."

How does it make the game easier to balance? Only 2 people are getting hit by tank mechanics. Punishing mistakes are how people get better. If you didn't die when you were bad, what is your motivation for getting better? What is "good use of active mitigation"? How can you tell if everything is smooth? What reward are you actually giving? There are already tank healers, they're called beacon Paladins and Disc priest, sounds like a healer problem. You keep mentioning positioning, but this isn't Dance Dance Revolution, there is nothing difficult about positioning. Again, how is that more rewarding than keeping yourself alive? What is "rewarding" about it?

You don't actually have an "arguement".